Topic: [Testing Capacity] Klondike Mining Collective - Toronto, Ontario Mining Facility (Read 4103 times)

right now, the collective is on 'pause' while i sort out some of my own hardware and evaluate the temperature and noise limits of the location. I will be running over 7kW of my own equipment by mid-April and am still not 100% sure how much cooling the AC can handle in summer (10kW? 18kW? more?) so am hesitant to start adding other equipment if capacity is limited.

I'm hoping to change this very soon, but the concerpt was created with bitcoin>$800 in mind so that equipment costs would make a few kW of power use very expensive hardware-wise. now, 1kW can be almost be fully used by <2BTC of antminer equipment and this drastically affects the scalability.

Even if this space is not suitable for a collective and/or >15kW of power draw - I am still aiming to move to a much larger (at least 60kW) location later in 2014.

I might still do some hosting in the near future, but the learning experience is causing me to think the current location will not be large enough to do what I originally planned for the collective (which was to have 20kW+ capacity using machines more valuable then they are at the moment)

regards
:Luke


ps: here is the state of the setup right now - 18kW of available power could be easily fit into 1-2 shelving units but I am beginning to think it would not be difficult for me to fill them almost exclusinvely with my own equipment, and even if hosting only 1-3 other people would really be able to share the space


There are 5 antminers on the shelf, 1 more on the top shelf, 4 more in the plastic crates at the side, and I will be adding 4 more on wednesday for a total of 3TH
When the Bitmain S2 arrives I will be drawing about 7kW for >4TH of hashing power. That will give me a better idea on the limitations and capabilities of the system

IF shipping is cheap enough (I live on eastern coast of US) I'd consider it once my gear has pushed my circuit breakers to the limit lol

I don't know of anyone at the moment - local production costs can be pretty high compared with overseas options.. However, if someone does setup in Ontario they should let me know

I am hopeful that a local fab in TO or Montreal can produce what we put out there as open source. Less delay is the key in this game.

Im definitely keeping an eye on the WPC. Ive got a fat mining wallet right now and am waiting for someone to bring a product at a leading price point (Bitmain at 1.45BTC is no longer relevant - should be 1.2BTC). 

I'd agree. The WPC are keen on being there with something that would make that "lifespan" less of a concern both in cooling and miners.

I think we are still 6-12 months away from any reliable immersion/2-phase solutions for bitcoin that do not cost an arm and a leg to cool technology with only a short useful lifespan.

Its funny then that your hosted groupbuys are so expensive - I guess you must be making a lot of profit on that.

This is a step up from mining at home. commercial power costs and availability, 600V A/C system, and the benefits of getting equipment out of your house where it is going to get VERY hot and noisy in the next 4 months are all motivators for me.

I looked at co-location. What I found was that I could (if lucky) fit about 10kW of equipment into a rack based on the antminer power use and size, and at a cost higher then the rent for this small farm. I will have lots of space - equal to 3-5 racks - plus lots of power. I also have people on-site who can perform basic upkeep and the location is pretty accessible for me to do larger adjustments.

This location may just be the first step. If 20kW of power capacity is reached - either a new transformer will go in for pretty small cost, or I will start looking at getting a private building with >80kW capacity - possibly even in another province where power costs are 30-60% less than Ontario.

Not sure why your very negative outlook on this - at 20kW it is a short-term solution (4-9 months before power capacity is reached and a fund is started towards another location and more equipment) and will act as a test-bed for a lot of things that could not be done in a residential location where <5kW can be reliably accessed without major work.   If you have been following some of bobsag3's work with an american industrial building converted to run a few dozen TH along one wall you might better understand my thoughts.

With the right effort and the right team this won't be a bunch of numbnutz just slapping it together. There is a lot more going for projects like this than you can estimate when looking at the first plan. I would seriously look into the use of systems like what  ASICminer built in Hong Kong for cooling using Novec etc. There might also be ASIC fabricators that will produce units that are more suited to this in the coming months. I wish you guys the best. Wish I was still up in Barrie I'd be down the 400 in heartbeat to help out and invest!

More amateurs trying to mine in a warehouse; when will you clowns learn? The rest of the world has already figured out how to do efficient power and cooling; and they can deliver it with a critical environment team that guarantees uptime and redundancy for power and cooling.  And thanks to efficiencies it costs about the same.... go with bullshit solutions and next thing you know dust and heat are going to fuck up your gear. 20kw? Are you fucking kidding me? We have nearly that much in just one cabinet. Your POE numbers in the back of a warehouse are going to suck, you'll end up spending 3x your net power cost from the utility once you try to cool things properly.  Sorry to shit on your thread, but seriously take a hard look at real datacenters.

Got a good quote finally for electrical work, should be just under $1000 all said-and-done to install 100A of 120V power and 60A of 208V. Its expected that 18-22kW of this capacity will be available from the main transformer without interfering with the host business.

The outlets will be put in place Tuesday, and at the same time I will get some of my own initial hashrate in place and make sure the network is configured correctly. I promise to bring back some photos of the available area, the new power connections, and some of the initial hashrate going live. I plan to move in my full 1.67 TH by the end of the week.

Checked out the location yesterday - and it looks ideal.

There is about 20kW of power available, and 600V three-phase access if a transformer upgrade ever becomes needed. The location is slightly different from expected (in a good way), and is actually on a second-level grated floor over the lower storage area. A few filing cabinets and boxes of stuff will be moved aside, and roughly 6'x8' should be available off-the-bat, and more can be cleared as/if needed. The metal grated floor should allow a nice cool airflow from below, and the area is currently secured by a locked door at the bottom of the stairs to it (its a larger second level with other things stored up here) and I am considering the installation of a second fence/gate if the need for additional security and locks should arise.

Today I am contacting electricians - the existing fuse panel is located about 40ft away on a different (connected) wall, so running power across will be a breeze - I just need to get a good quote (I am hoping in the $350-500 range). I have not yet decided whether to run ~20 power cables across this distance to thier respective outlets, or simply run a FAT 120V cable or two and install a secondary circuit panel that breaks out to the individual outlets. This would give me a little more control over the circuits and limit the number of wire runs along the ~40ft distance so they are rather a few 3-5ft runs from the panel to the outlet. I imagine this may cost more since a panel may add an extra $150 (minus the the dozen+ 40ft wire runs i would avoid)

The goal is still to have my current equipment in-place by the end of the week, and then start looking for any interest from current miners to have their equipment hosted in the same space while I deal with other things such as setting up a local terminal with VPN, installing some security cameras, installing extra sheves or tables, etc.

edit: electrical is a lot more money than expected - Ive had estimates of everything from $1200 to $2700! Looking for the bets price before proceeding, as I initially had planned/hoped to stay under $750

The space is actually right at the back corner of an existing small company (about 7 employees) and will be within a few feet of the circuit panel. Theyve been having some bi-annual transport canada audits in the office the last few days so I was asked to hold off on a visit until after the auditors are done for the day so that the owner(s) can focus on me and we can set up an agreement and check out the exact space available. (presumably a 4'x5' or bigger area can be easily cleared up - and more space if needed)

Unfortunately the bitmain sale this morning was a massive flop with no price changes and a terrible amount of timeouts on the website. I am waiting for them to price <1.3BTC (preferably <1.25BTC) before I buy, and have about 12BTC available when that time comes.

The plan is to visit the office this monday, scope out the space and power options. Im hoping a few outlets already exist in the area to make things easy for a day or two until an electrician comes in to do the actual wiring. I was planning to install a few separate 120V 15/20A circuits plus at least a single 20A or 30A 240V circuit - depends largely on the cost.

With the outlets available, finding 240V PDU stuff is a bit tricky and expensive compared with the 'normal' 120V stuff, so I expect to balance my PSUs between the two systems while I look to get more 240V power bars and PSU cables (seriously, where do i find cheap 240V plugs for power supplies? ebay is >$10 each and in comparison I know a tech recycling place that will give me 120V PSU cords for less than a buck a piece)

With electrical in place, I will move in my own miners first (5 antminers and maybe the bitfury, plus anything that i might order from bitmain) and install a few shelving units to hold them securely. Then its onto a VPN or other remopte desktop-like configuration with a dedicated computer terminal to monitor and adjust the miners from off-site. Then its the IP cameras for security.

Once thats all done (planned for the end of next week), I will document the location a bit better with some photos and concrete pricing for anyone who wishes to relocate existing hardware to the location. I expect:
1) a small setup fee depending partly on equipment type ($40-80)
2) rent + basic upkeep + power use as a fixed rate ($0.20/KwH most likely, +/- $0.02)
3) *if applicable* extra maintenance and monitoring fees for units that require more work. This may just be done with a simple method for billing $10/15min of work required - things like changing cgminer values or replacing dead unit PSUs or fans

basic upkeep would include things like doing power resets and maintaining the network connection and stability - I think promising a 23/7 uptime for the first month would be easy to fulfill, and then we can go for 24/7 uptime once everything is looking good.

After that, The next phase would be to start a few group buys for equipment such as antminers, using set prices and some agreement over how long the hosting term will last and who keeps the unit when its no longer profitable.


the main stuff I still need to do some of this is to figure out the best way to monitor all the machines and change payout addresses and stuff easily. P2Pool sounds like a great candidate but i have no experience yet. I understand it can result in much more rejects and lower hashrate?

Once things are in place, a simple webpage might be added - but that's still conditional on 10 other steps before it. I need to talk with an accountant and determine whether to consider this a small business or a profitable hobby - the lines may be blurry at the co-location level but if i start running a full hosting service it may become more of a 'traditional' business regarding taxes or regulations

I have been given a potential spot in the back storage area of a small business. The area is warehouse-style with high ceilings and enough space that some can be given to this project to undergo the first stages of trial and growth.


I expect to look at the available location no later than monday. It has a 45KVA transformer (from 600V), and the office itself likely draws less than 15kW even with AC. The fuse panel looks like installing additional circuits wont be a problem - this means that a solid 15-20kW should be available for hardware. (If this is reached, then either a transformer or location upgrade will be in order

After that, my next steps are
check the network suitability
look into power smoothing and UPS
determine available space and start bringing in shelving, IP security cameras, and potentially installing a security cage if necessary.

For a short-term location this should be quite sufficient, and the rent will be quite low - hopefully a reasonable amount of space for ~$300/month plus power and potentially some upkeep costs (There are a few savvy employees that may be capable of performing simple tasks such as daily inspection or rebooting units/updating connection info in order to reduce the need for me to visit the location if something is up with a machine). If you factor in power costs and the above, hopefully can do this for <$0.20/kWh (at least until AC becomes a necessity), and potentially a small installation cost to share the up-fronts

I'm also local and very interested in discussing this with you further - will PM for more details.

I just wanted to post a bit of a numerical update to give some idea of where this project is headed.

Based on toronto hydro commercial rates, including all the (bullshit) extras like debt reduction, delivery, meter cost, etc : ~$0.14/kWh

add in the cost of renting,insuring, and securing a small 20kW/h facility -> ~0.20/kWh for equipment hosting
"    "         "         "               "                   "             40kW/h facility -> ~0.17/kWh for equipment hosting

if you compare with residential rates; with all the residential fees/tarriffs included -> ~0.17/kWh to mine at home. This means that it is feasible or even ideal to create such a localized facility. Pushing the power requirements towards 60-80kW/h (not at all unreasonable by the end of 2014), costs would be less than mining at home, and would include hosting.

Right now, hosting would be relatively basic. I picture a 15'x15' security cage within the rented space that is monitored by a few IP cameras (recording to off-site HDDs) and has multiple 120V and 240V circuits on 12AWG wire (20A/circuit) or better. UPS/generators are not part of the initial scope due to the associated costs, largely because brownouts/blackouts are uncommon to the area - maybe a dozen 0.5-3hr outtages per year on average - and would be experienced in an at-home setup anyways.

for hosting, there would likely be a small setup fee depending on the difficulty of the equipment. For example, $40 to setup an antminer and $80 to setup a bitfury. Once more details are laid out, I feel like the best approach would be to invite a few existing miners to relocate thier equipment to the facility to test it, followed by a groupbuy for the best available hardware (antminers?) with clearly-written terms including how long it will be hosted (based on time or based on a profitability equation in case BTC value rises and the devices continue to be profitable past July)

I am still looking for a suitable location without having to jump right into an empty 1000sqft space right away - Ive had some pretty mixed results on trying to get a good price and the power availability required without  having to go outside the GTA.

Also, I have been trying to wrap my head around starting this as a business, and it looks like there are two obvious options for a canadian small business: sole-proprietorship or as a few shared owners. From my stand-point, sole-proprietorship seems like the straight-forward option with all funds travelling through MY company's account - but If there are some serious individuals who would like to meet in person and share some of the effort and costs of starting this up I am totally open to the idea.

The tax law regarding bitcoin, espescially equipment depreciation, is quite open-ended. My next step is to speak with an accountant or two and see what sort of basic business plan can be drafted up to keep track of equipment costs/profits and make sure capital gains are properly taxed and any small-business benefits are sought out (such as tax-deductions for mining equipment and salaries).

I am still quite certain that there will have to be two seperate approaches made:
1) for investors to back equipment purchases to be hosted on their behalf, and
2) for miners looking for a place to operate existing hardware.

for right now, I am in talks with a small company that might be able to share some room in its back warehouse area which is mostly assigned to storage space at the moment. The location has a 600V 3-phase mains so adding power should not be an issue if there is enough space. I promise to have an update on this option eatrly next week, but it would only act as a small/medium hosting farm, possibly opened up to the 'investors' category. The long-term goal continues to be a larger space that can house tens to hundreds of terrahashes, but would require a large initial investment (hosted antminer group buy?) or a short-term small farm to test the waters for interest and as a business.

How goes the development?

As this project begins to seem clearer in my eyes - it appears two distinct sides must arise: miner colocation ('collective') services for hosting the equipment of existing miners; and a mining farm backed by a few investors with clearly set out contracts for agreement on sunk costs (initial equipment like racks and networking), equipment type, location, and defining the 'profitable lifetime' for equipment (based on the ratio of [mining income]/[power/rent/upkeep costs]).

With asic power requirements rising i think there could soon be an opportunity to have very profitable machines as long as you can supply enough power to them - and in my mind making the commitment to a larger facility makes more sense considering that >20kW will soon be a minimum necessity for larger mining clusters or 3kW KNC devices

In my mind, I hope to have a few locations scouted out by mid-february, and actually start a rental contract for March 1st - by which point 6BTC/Terrahash/kW will be the market price for 28nm and 4BTC/Terrahash/2kW for 55nm. With a few investors it could be quite profitable to control a 10-25 Terrahash mine with clearly defined agreements on equipment type, monthly costs  including power, and some definition of the anticipated lifespan for profitable operation and/or re-sales. (I can tell you that there is a large local market that will pay 30-50% over market price for in-hand ASICs)

If a commercial power rate can be negotiated, it could allow hosting options (including power) to be competitively priced in comparison with mining-at-home on residential rates

I am still looking for input- everytime a question is asked, a suggestion is made, or someone looking to be involved reaches out- the project becomes a little closer to a reality

check your email

yeah that likely wouldnt be an issue. It would take at least 20TH of equipment for a private pool to make much sense, likely far more

I will be at the Toronto Bitcoin meetup tonight to try and network if anyone here is looking to connect

So would the people who place in their rigs for you to host be able to run their rigs on the pools they so choose? Though I think the idea of having all of them on one pool hosted by you guys would be an incredible idea down the road when you build a name for yourselves.

At the moment I am working on building up my Bitcoin wallet, coming slowly, but my investments are clear. Though this idea is incredibly intriguing and I would love to be a part of it somehow. Eventually when I can make a contribution that's actually worth something, I would invest and or offer a rig. For now, I'll just marvel at the idea till I can make a decent contribution.

Logistically it solves some pretty big of issues.

Shipping / Import duties and control over the fab timeline cutting a week or two weeks off waiting for units.

Also our units can do 55nm etc as well we can mod our design in days to any specific chip you can get your hands on. Anyhow think about it. I am a Canadian Expat wish I were up in Barrie still but now over in Jakarta.

problem is that most 28nm is all vaporware and preorders at the moment, i dont expect much great stuff to be available at competitive pricing until he spring. I would love to look into a local fab to supply the mining facility, but that presents a whole second set of logistics.

If someone in ontario wants to fab out mining equipment though, contact me because it would be a great partnership

If you can find a fab in TO to do our designs and some 28nm chips magically become available probably cut time down a lot. In fact might be the way to go from the start depending on the chips.

It could be a lot less, but 28nm will conceivably be the smallest bitcoin circuitry for a while until massive investments are made in 20nm technology - something not very accessible to anyone outside Intel/AMD

28nm machines should be able to run competitively for a lot longer then the current generation of 55/65nm stuff - almost comparable to the 7950's utility for GPU mining

The biggest obstacle in forming this collectivew will be the initial investment of equipment. At least 20kW of power use is needed to make renting a building a viable method and to encourage competitive electricity pricing. This means that if only ~10 THash of equipment owners are interested in hosting thier units with the collective, it may be necessary to raise a small investment towards quickly filling in the space with additional equipment.

if anyone here frequents the Toronto Bitcoin Meetups, I intend to be there this Wednesday to try and make some connections and find out if there are people there who are interested in joining the collective. I would be particularly interested in meeting anyone with plans or desire to manufacture their own mining machines (custom chip or based on an existing) but who does not yet have a buyer or location lined up for running said machines.

I want to get this off the ground in february, so that by March the collective is capable of accepting miners and running their own units. This is not a simple venture, so I am always looking for anyone with advice or insight into locations or power considerations

I would also love to find a way to monitor multiple distinct mining accounts via eligius or another <20% pool. As far as I know, there isn't a simple way to tracking 20+ accounts easily and reliably

Why so long?

Looking at some of the options currently available, I am ready to do some interest checks for this.

For miners joining the collective with their own equipment, pricing will be done by power usage rather than speed or space requirements. This is to allow SCRYPT rigs to participate in the space and make managing different-efficiency hardware costs.

For a small collective (5-15 kW), it would be roughly $250/kW/month + power (includes cooling) = $450/kW/month total costs
For a larger collective (15-30 kW), it would be closer to $175/kW/month before power cost

Obviously power costs are significant, and the goal will be to evaluate if other electricity providers are available at more competitive rates. This will be an ongoing priority, and should result in power/cooling costs lower than mining at home.

For investors The 28nm generation will clearly be a priority to the collective, but is not necessarily the best price at the moment. By the time investments are called for, prices and equipment availability will be drastically different from right now, but to use a 'today example':

Based on the above prices, to add an Antminer to the facility (190GH/400W approx) would require:
+2.2 BTC purchase price (current BITMAIN price)
+$100 PSU + setup cost
+$160/month fees+hosting (based on the pricing for a larger collective)

With this pricing, You could have an Antminer system hosted with us for 4 months (long enough that mining profits approach zero) for only 2.6 BTC - you dont have to worry about power use, noise, or heat during the summer months. A quick calculation shows that within those 4 months the unit should enter profitability using these figures:
http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=1789546951&dcosts=2250&diff_mincrease=20&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=190000&diff_mincreasedecrease=0.1&btcusd=900&dpowcon=0&btcusd_mincrease=0&pcost=0&calcweeks=22&dleadtime=1&action=calc

I believe the reality is much quicker based on a few of the recent <20% difficulty jumps



with all this in place, I've opened a poll to see what sort of interest there is.

Sounds awesome! I would love to help out with this but I live near Boston...

Currently 'on hold' while I test the capabilities of the location. With 7kW of my own power draw, (compared to 4kW planned originally), there may be less power/cooling then required to host as originally intended. I am monitoring this closely and if the location is well-suited to hosting much equipment outside my own I will continue to pursue a 60kW+ location for later in 2014

Ive been with these forums for a long time and became heavily involved with Bitcoin mining in late-2013 with the new generation of ASIC mining devices. However, I have reached the limits of residential mining and am looking to expand - and expand significantly.

I am not the only one in this boat. With many of the 110/130nm and 55/65nm technologies using major power draws, all over Canada Bitcoin miners are scrambling to find more electricity and space to keep from stagnating. The terrahash/second achievement is no longer enough to pay the bills on its own, and a central location with cheap plentiful power and a staff dedicated to 24/7 uptime becomes a necessity rather than a simple desire.

With that in mind - I suggest a mining collective be formed. By locating within the borders of canada's largest city, the collective will tout accessibility, responsibility, and accountability above all else. Every machine will be given individual worker accounts and payment addresses for simple, reliable tracking of stats and income, either via an established mining pool such as eligius or forming a private pool dedicated to network distribution.

This is not a task for one person - I am seeking miners, investors, and IT engineers to help make this a reality.

BITCOIN MINERS
We want to host your equipment! From 200 GHash to 5 THash, if you want to have your machines hosted at a secure location where you dont need to worry about power outtages, blown fuses, and cutting a holiday short because your machine went offline - I want to hear from you.

The initial location will have up to 20kW available for access, and can be expanded if that limit is reached. Estimated fees will include:
1) initial setup costs ($50-150 depending on type of machine and any complexity of setup)
2) rent+mainteneance+power+cooling will be roughly $0.27/kWh - this may fluctuate as cooling increases at summer and as there is more equipment to share the space rental
3) additional maintenance such as overclocking, tuning, replacing fans/PSUs, etc would be charged at a fixed rate (possibly $10/15min)

As mentioned, every member or machine would be given individual mining addresses to track, preventing any disagreement over mining income or dividends


BITCOIN INVESTORS
Want to participate in bitcoin mining but lack the space, time, or even funds to run your own units at home? Klondike Mining Collective has tons of room to grow, and is looking for investors who can make that happen.

The Collective will be constantly purchasing and adding equipment to the facility if calculations indicate that they will return a profit within 3 months. This means that if you had 2.2BTC to invest with us, we would purchase, host, and maintain a BITMAIN Antminer system in our facility on your behalf. It would be given a unique mining address (that is controlled by the collective) and its mining income would be split to 3 accounts -  
1) Hosting Cost - This would be the base rate for the unit's power consumption (incl. cooling) plus any relevant costs (including initial power supply and setup costs incurred) - for example: $100 initial cost for PSU, unit, and network setup, plus ongoing electricity at cost
1) Hosting Fees - This would include a small cost to employ IT engineers who maintain the facility plus a small share of the facility costs. - for example: 0.05BTC/device/month towards the cost of renting the location and paying the salaries of those who keep the unit running 24/7. This could would probably be adjusted lower monthly to reflect the lower income of the machine and the more machines in the collective = lower share of rent per machine
1) Mining Returns - This would be where all proceeds of mining go after the above reductions. The address will be unique to each machine so that investors can see the return-on-investment.

Machines puchased via investors will be owned by the collective, and operated under the above guidelines until such a time as the fees+costs outweigh the returns. For 55/65nm equipment, this is expected to be a 3-6 month time frame. For 28nm equipment, 6-12 months is expected.

The goal of the collective will be to select and maintain Bitcoin mining ASICs that will produce >120% ROI to the investor after the cost+fee deductions. Please understand that there are many varying opinions on what the ASICs will actually return and the collective cannot promise that a machine will actually produce more Bitcoin than it cost to purchase. However, It is my belief that a 120% return to the investor is entirely possible, with some machines recouping >50% of costs in a single month.

IT ENGINEERS
The collective is looking for a few talented individuals with experience in bitcoin mining and maintaining large device networks. There are very few openings for this role, and initially it would be desirable to give these to established bitcoin miners. MUST be located in the Toronto area


As the Klondike Mining Collective comes to reality, a board of members/investors will be formed to vote on decisions such as hosting fees, expansion, and investment options. This would begin with agreement on a selected location, selection of IT engineers, and determining how to invest in machines.

I look forwards to any interested parties. Please contact me by private message or [email protected]