Topic: The current permaban situation is ridiculous (Read 1203 times)

I see good posters being permabanned because of this, while the actual scammers/super spammers are all over the place.

The main reason this doesn't make sense is that someone with an established Hero+ account that did something wrong years ago is NOT going to risk doing anything stupid ever again and has probably learned enough stuff to produce decent posts. Banning old members from stuff done years ago is an obvious net loss. Someone that was bright enough to come here years ago when bitcoin wasn't mainstream has learned and probably has good things to offer. Everyone coming in now are just jumping on the bandwaggon.
I wouldn't even bother with signature permabans. Who cares if they are producing good content? just ban the people that are cluttering the forum with nonsense, as readers we don't give a toss if someone copy-pasted two lines 3 years ago when they were noobs if they have been doing it right since then.

Restricting less than 3 posts per day (with accepted timegaps betweenn posts is 8 hours) to help to slow down lives of bitcointalkers is not a bad thing, especially during those hottest day in both crypto (due to the Spring-return) and in the forum (due to Perma-Bans, Ban Appeals, and thousands of woke-up accounts). It might play important role to slow down the pace of FUDs and scams spreading around by scammers, whom woke up recently or become more actively during recent days.

Right now the Internet is under attack, and I think Theymos is taking some very reasonable precautions to avoid falling foul of the new restrictive laws that are being imposed by some countries. It is especially relevant for a Bitcoin community - many of the lawmakers seem to think they should be silenced.

No, I agree with the banning. I have an issue with digging up posts from 4 and 5 years ago, hitting people who are not monetizing their sig. You could have hit him with sig ban and he never would have cared.
Or given a 90 day vacation from the forum with a stern warning. Or nuked the posts from 2014.


Discussed that with him. Not interested in anyone knowing who he is IRL.
Not you, not theymos, not anyone. Only reason I know is because I have known him for 30+ 40+ (crap I'm old) years. And he is not real happy with the fact that I know his forum use or the fact that I am talking about it here. But, I think this discussion needs to exist.

The other issue would be that since he has almost no merit and a lower post count it's going to be tough to make a good defense.

Yes, it's a very rare 1 off case, but it's still there. And if I know 1 person who had it happen, I will bet you just about any amount there is at least one more.
Possibly they have had an issue with another forum member and this was a push they needed to leave.
Does their SO think they spend too much time on here and it's an internal excuse to leave?
Did they cash out 18 months ago when BTC was at $20k and just don't care as much?

Could they appeal? yes.
Do they want to? possibly.
Will they because of external factors? perhaps not, or at least not now.

As I said, spamming & plagiarizing now. You're out of here. Once it's over 1500 days old and has not been done since? Temp ban with stern warning or something.

Just my view, take it as you will.

-Dave

I don’t understand how or why they would need to disclose that information. The administration wants to know what benefits to the forum there would be if the person is able to continue posting on the forum. In general, this would be shown by pointing to previous posts the person has made and how they are beneficial.

As hilarious said, you can also appeal privately via the email address on the ban message.

Well there's nothing we can do about that but I'm sure word will spread pretty quick and many users will be reappearing to try claim their accounts back. Most people who got banned are probably still here just on alts so I'm they'll see it. Tell your friend he can appeal if he wants. I'm not sure what you're complaining about here though. Would you rather us not issue sig bans and just leave everyone permanently banned?


They can appeal to mods or admins in private if they feel like they can't make their claim publicly.

I really did not want to go down this road, so I will leave it at this:
They were banned for plagiarism for several things for several years, from many places. The issue is that it was *their* work. Proving that would reveal:

1) Their real name.
2) Their real job.
3) 90% of their home address, 99.9999% of their work address.
4) Where they went to school.

So, he walks away.

His choice. Not going to get into it.

-Dave

It is not the same for all because there are some components that are really different from user to user:
- Past contributions: The more good past contributions, the higher chance to be listed in prioritising cases to handle first.
- Severity of plagiarism: number of plagiarism, and intention of plagiarism;
- Support from community members: without supports or lack of support somehow means that user likely does not deserve a ban uplift.

Plagiarism is a very serious problem here that causes a lot of damage. If you are caught doing this, I think it is appropriate to force people to make an argument as to what you are going to contribute to let the person come back.

If someone “walks away” after getting caught, IMO, they don’t care a lot about being able to stay. A long term signature ban is appropriate for these people and I don’t think anyone is going to make a successful argument against handing out signature bans for this.

If you are aware of anyone who just “walks away” and you think they should be allowed to return, you should encourage them to appeal their ban with reasons to why returning would benefit the forum.

The problem is that they some are not appealing. I know 1 user IRL that just walked away.
Now there were other factors involved, but this was the final push.
*That* is part of the issue. He might be back, might not. You can now find him spending a lot of time on an ieee board.

-Dave

Users can appeal. If we feel that they're a net positive and it was for something that happened years ago then a sig ban will likely be issued. Several have already been done today and many more will likely come.


Case by case basis but 99% of plagiarism is cut and dry, but as with all mod actions we will take several factors involved and decide appropriate outcome. Everyone can't have it their own way but the rule used to be that if you plagiarised you got a permaban; now at least that has been relaxed and people can have a second chance if we feel it's appropriate. 


He would probably get a sig ban, but as far as I'm aware he's never monetised his signature before. Copying a paragraph or material from elsewhere should always be quoted but it's not something we would probably issue a permaban for now and is one of the reasons why I've been pushing for sig bans because not all plagiarism is equal, but there's a big difference between that and purposefully plagiarising someone else's post for profit especially when you've done it multiple times.

There is a line. The examples you mentioned wouldn't result in a ban (well, except where I start copy-pasting Forbes articles today, I should really get banned for that - no excuse). Your post from 2014 makes it clear that the words are not your own. I think that's enough for anyone to understand your intent there.

Bans are for blatant spammy copy-pasta. Many of those banned users have done it multiple times leaving no doubt of their intent. I'm sure moderators have a better definition of what deserves a ban but that's what I'm seeing.

I really did not want to get into this, but I do think the situation as of now is getting out of hand.
We have bots posting tons of garbage getting banned, BUT good / legit users getting a smackdown on something they did years ago. And some good users are NOT COMING BACK.

For every lovesmayfamilis that got their perma ban reduced how many people just say screw it and walk away?

The other issue is, we are all human with different opinions. Where do you draw the line on "is this plagiarism"

A post from ME just over 5 years ago:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6582407

Technically everything after "Still love this error list from the old days (the 5th one down is my favorite) you could blow your hardware with bad code:" line
Are copy / paste from other sources. Was I supposed to put them in quotes? It's very obvious that it's not my work but is that worth a perma-ban? If it is I will leave quietly.

But then I should have good company as I KNOW other people who are well liked, do a lot of good for the board also have done similar.
I know of at least 2 that both have 10K+ posts and 3k+ merit that have taken a paragraph from somewhere and posted but not quoted it, more then once.
How do I know? It was my paragraph from someplace other than here.
Both are probably 3 or 4 years ago but it's there. It wan innocent at the time and it's innocent now but there has to be A LINE THAT ONCE ANYONE CROSSES IT IS THE SAME.

Picking on Vod who I both like and and has done a TON of good for the forum [way more then most other people], if he did something back in 2012 that is worthy of a plagiarism perma ban does he get it?
If he does, I hate to say it that's just stupid. If he starts TODAY and does it a few times, then fine he is outta here.

Suchmoon is another one. Do we look the other way for something small that was done in 2014? I think yes, even 2 or 3 something smalls. Too much good comes from that account. Starts today posting multiple unquoted quotes from Forbes. See ya.

But there needs to be a line that everyone can see.

Just my view.

-Dave

The current plagiarism situation is ridiculous.

Fixed that for you.

Sure, more info probably should be given but it's not very feasible right now (though I've requested changed to how bans are handled and what info is displayed but it's probably not a priority right now). An alternative is to just not plagiarise others work and then people would have nothing to worry about.


If they're valuable then they can appeal. Globals can now issue sig bans and will be given to those who we feel are net positive.



It really isn't. It's a tool to get rid of plagiarisers and if you haven't done that then there's nothing to worry about.

I like the idea but not the name "my excuse".

just an idea to get a bit more "silence" in the meta board.
What about to create a new board, banned -> my excuse
where the banned users are able to create one thread, no more.

maybe this also helps to also avoid getting new users for such posts.


not sure if I got the complete picture so count this as only loud thinking.

Given that we know sig bans can be given out and are able to be mass-distributed (e.g. YoBit) I would be interested in seeing the effects of turning permbans into 1 month user ban + 1 year (or more) signature bans. This bottlenecks sig spammers as they are cut from the main incentive but provides an opportunity for genuine users to return after a cooling period. (They still deserve a punishment)

Changes from perma-bans to long temp-bans with signature bans and demotion on accounts that won't earn required merits on the two year anniversary of merit system. I don't think demotion should aim at high earned merit requirements. 10 - 25 earned merits required to maintain ranks are enough. Then, interesting thing will happen when demoted users automatically forget about their accounts. They will automatically permanent waste their accounts into Recycle Bin, nearly the same as perma bans. After massive perma-bans and huge spendable merits destroyed, there will be harder to abuse merit system. Maybe most of airdropped merits and circulating merits from them have gone (destroyed), so a new refresh wave for forum might occur with demotion.

I'd be in favor of a ban that would basically turn high-rank offenders into newbies (take away merits, signature, etc) but let them keep their account and continue on the forum. Most would disappear anyway, since they're here for money only. This has been proposed is some shape or form multiple times but I wouldn't hold my breath. For now the only path is to get theymos' personal attention with a "good for the forum" appeal and get the permaban downgraded to temp+sig ban.

Update May 15: now global moderators have been given the option to do signature bans so appeals should move faster and new plagiarism cases may get temp+sig ban at their discretion without the need of appeal.

Plagiarist hunting season has officially started and going strong...

You guys keep giving examples of well/decent established accounts getting permabanned for a weird copy/pasted shitpost that happened years ago and it got me thinking...

When they CTRL+C / CTRL+V they do this for 2 reasons:

1. get paid
2. rank up (padding their post count and getting merit)

I am aware that there was some talk about sigbans but I would also like to propose a merit ban.

Certain users that have an ok/good reputation and previously had 1 old plagiarized post (an interesting one that might be considered merit bait) could get a temp or permanent merit ban (maybe along with other forms of bans).

Not sure how much code would have to be rewritten but as these should and are handled on a case-by-case manner might be a useful tool when needed.

You are not allowed to post anywhere outside of your ban appeal thread. There is a possibility of "amnesty", you just need to follow the rules and not get banned for ban evasion while you do it.

First thing is, there is reason behind of every ban. Current situation isn't ridiculous really. This is a dangerous situation for plagiarized users. Honestly peoples can't copy paste others content unconsciously and that's the reason why admin think parma ban for plagiarist user. As admin already clear that, auto-ban doesn't mean its ban by automatically. Every plagiarism checked by moderators or admin. However, those good contributor got ban they had made mistake on paste and they forgot it. That's the reason why they getting ban. 

Posts are reported to moderators who check out the report. If the poster needs to be banned, the moderator sends a ban report up to a global mod or admin. The global mod or admin handles all of the ban reports they get at around the same time. Either the admins or global mods don't need to check every account because they trust the moderators to have already done so, or they check quickly because every such report contains references and links to the plagiarism post and to the source text so checking takes little time.

Normaly they write behind the line " Good Luck Dev " too or something like this !

Payd posters or Bots for sure !

But easy to spot .

Most of them are like this:



How much time do you suppose one needs to "check" this?

they don't have to remember every single post they made,
they just need to remember whether they ever copy-paste from other source without citing
as suchmoon pointed out, most banned users are found guilty of blatant copy paste... so there's no point in appealing

Since the mods are busy banning over 100-200 accounts daily, it would be a tedious job to explain the reason of the ban and unlike some users who received messages of their posts being deleted, I have noticed that now users don't even receive such messages and most of them don't know the reason. They have been perm banned for posts made in 2016 and it's not possible to remember and some of these users have done this once (may or may not be "intentional" so I can understand them appealing to get to know this reason.

I can see some members were rather confused regarding plagiarism which sometimes is obvious as they are "humans" and hence it's better to provide a reference link and tell them a reason. I feel that sig-bans for users who have done this once by mistake is more appropriate as among 1-10k posts, doing this once should account for a sig ban rather than a perm-ban. It may not be done for signature campaigns or bounty campaigns as well.

It's just a suggestion but it's not feasible, then nothing can be done.

Someone in the forum used a bot to find plagiarism, then reported to mods. Mods, in turn, manually checked reports, and handled each reported case hand-by-hand.

It would be helpful if the last x number of your posts of yours that were reported and marked "good" by a moderator was included in the ban message. This would help cut down on these pointless threads in which the person claims they did nothing wrong, only to be shown proof they plagiarized.

If its not automated how come there was a massive 1000 ish ban at once? each case has a different context, doubt you had the time to check it out with such a short amount of time with so many bans.

All plagiarism bans are human-checked.


You should know that you haven't plagiarized because you would never do such a thing.

Agreed.  But these one or two post bots don't deserve a single IP packet wasted on them. 

Any established member, good trust or horrible trust, deserves at least an explanation of the ban. It is standard practice for *any* banning of accounts anywhere to give a valid explanation of the account ban.

It's understandable since there's so many to do every day, but established members deserve it.

What I know is Permanent bans handled manually and carefully, not by bots. Maybe someone actually created a bot to find plagiarism and reports all cases that his or her bot found, that caused nearly thousand of bans recent days. Nevertheless, perma-bans handled manually, not by forum bots.
In addition, you should read do this first.

I would prob get some attention, because I am not in a sig campaign.  But most people that are banned have posts like this garbage.  No one should spend time investigating that.

Stop repeating that nonsense. No one is getting banned by a bot.

And the type of plagiarism users are getting banned for is mostly blatant literal copy-pasta. Ban "appeals" here mostly ask one question: how did you catch me [so that I could avoid it with my other alts]? Very rarely there is any real acknowledgement of wrongdoing, lots of excuses though.

Which of your 3 accounts got caught?

No way. If you got banned with that generic message, you wouldn't know what happened because you have thousands of posts. Same for anyone that has 1000+ posts.

Can you at least confirm if there is an actual bot filling permabans? and who thought that was a good idea?



All im saying is that it is nuts that a bot is filling permabans. Or in general permabanning (specially Hero+ members) with a generic message. This will only fill the meta section with people asking what happened because theymos never replies anyway.

Did you mean that if someone plagiarise today or two months ago, they are deserved with perma bans, whilst someone whom did it years ago should be considered as innocent. Plagiarism comes from copy & paste. Which forces lead to copy & paste (lack of time, stealing other ideas, lazy to compose own posts, financial benefits by stealing other ideas)?

---

Another point is there are actually second chances for good users, even they plagiarised in the past. Admin, actually made perma-banned users second chances if they have good net-effects. If not, admin say no with any second chance.
If you, yourself, think that you are not quality enough to take such a second chance given by admin. It's your second fault (after the first one - past plagiarism), not admin's.

Most auto banned users are brand new spammers.   

The second point: you are most likely incorrect.

There's *no fucking way* anyone that has spent here years and has 1000+ comments knows from memory every single post they made. Im sure most of these cases genuinely don't know what they are banned for.

It's the other way around. Many users work for free to help clean forum from the leeching spammers who can't be bothered to do the one thing they should be doing here - discuss stuff like normal people, and not copy-paste garbage.

Because, as I just posted, you could be offered a paid mod position.  

This forum cares about legit users - not spammers.  I've made 17,000+ posts and never needed to plagiarize once!

I didn't start out as an expert, and I'm still nowhere near an expert--but I did not begin my time on bitcointalk plagiarizing other people's words.  That's the reason why most of these members are being banned for offenses committed months to years ago, not spam.  Members rarely get banned for spam anyway.

I've suggested that a number of times, but it's never been implemented.  There are problems with the suggestion as well.  For one thing, most banned members know exactly what they did and are playing dumb when they start an appeal thread.  They just want the mods or other members to jump through hoops looking for examples of plagiarism. 

Second, banned members are still going to create appeals threads in which they're going to make excuses, plead for mercy, and blah blah blah.  Even if they got a PM upon receiving a permaban that showed exactly what they did wrong, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference.

Let's face it:  most people here are just wasting bandwidth and burying good posts under a mountain of shit.  That's why the Bitcoin/Altcoin Discussion sections aren't worth reading--and those ought to be some of the best sections here. 

I'm grateful the mods are kicking some ass right now, because bitcointalk definitely needs a good house cleaning.

Why would you work for free helping a forum that doesn't give a fuck about their users? We've had people waiting literally for years trying to recover their accounts which were hacked and now this. And it isn't like many of the people in charge here aren't rich and with the proper resources to get all of that fixed. But let me spend my (non nonexistent) free time fixing it myself while under the fear of losing your account permanently because you posted the wrong thing 7 years ago.

It is a sad period for someone who have perma-bans due to only a single plagiarism in the past, but for users whom actually repeatedly plagiarised, I think that they won't have chance to complain and come back.

---

Now, with such a ridiculous perma ban period, please spend your time to code a bot to create Ban Appeals (with template of Ban Appeals). Lazy guys can use the template easily and only have to change ID or username to finish their Ban Appeals. The question OP should consider is using the Ban Appeal Template results in another plagiarism or not. Think of it before coding such a bot. Lazy guys whom perma-banned might support and use it.  

So write something then!   All the new developments is taking place in the new software.

So you run some sort of bot that automatically bans accounts and you don't even double check manually that it makes sense? If something is automated to auto-ban, then it can be automated to include what it caused it to autoban within the ban message as well.

What's too much work is spending years here, generating good content for the forum, making connections with people, then have your account banned because some bullshit automated bot ran by someone lazy enough to not quote reason of bans, then get sent into a weird ass looking email which theymos will never read, appealing something you don't know because there are no details. Unbeliable.

Explained (quite recently) - too much extra work for the hundreds of automated accounts being banned...

Write a bot to help!  Maybe you'll get a paid mod position...  

From what I can see, around 900+ members got banned accused of "plagiarism/spam", with a generic message and no source of what triggered the ban to make a proper appeal, appeal which will never even be addressed anyway.

Why aren't the ban messages including clear links pointing to what caused the ban as one would expect out of sanity? You are asking for people to appeal to some generic message.

On the log there's only "autoban" without any more details for most people.

Many valuable members got banned for life and we cannot contact them again as we only talked across PM. Banned for life for what's most likely some bullshit reason done years ago which does not justify a permaban weighting in the contributions for the forum. Unless you started an expert, everyone's posting history was pretty lame at the beginning. Someone in power that wants to harm you will find something across 1000's of posts to ban you. Since they don't need to give details they can freely banhammerize anyone they please, ruining your account for life and everything that it means for the people that spent ages here.

If you are going to permaban someone, at least have the decency to quote exactly what triggered something as harsh as a permaban.

This is most likely a tool for someone in charge to get rid of people they don't like anyway.