Topic: The Decline and Fall of the European Union (Read 580 times)

This is exactly the problem with the eurozone. They're squabbling about who is pulling down whom, and there is very little trust between them. And to share a currency you need a lot of trust.

Lols...

This was Italy 5 centuries ago:

This was Germany:

Do you know how Japan looked before Nobunaga?

People learn to co-exist when there are advantages, apart from some that believe leaving alone on an island is better for them, most people know that all the proverbs about strength in numbers are true.

Whatever England (I'm deliberately not using UK) thinks, the EU is still pretty good tied up and no matter how hard others are trying to dismantle it because they are scared shit of a united Europe they won't be able to do more harm than this.


Oh really? 

Even if the European Union survives the next recession I do not think of this as a signal that it will not disappear in the future, the European Union has been destined to fail from the beginning

It is going to be impossible to try to unite Europe when they have so many differences when it comes to their economies and as time passes the citizens of those countries are getting angry that many of the decisions are not being taken by elected politicians in their countries.

We're gonna feel all this storm that was creating on European Union in the next coming years follow by a fall of EURO currency, Germany will no longer give BIG loans to underdeveloped countries ( like mine ) because they have almost null chances to get back their money so all the countries that are currently in a debt to Germany will have to suffer in the next years. About BREXIT , honestly they were never felt that they belonged here so this might be the right call in the end but its all how the manage the exit in the end so lets not rush with prediction and see what next years will bring...I doubt there will be good things though.

If we are going to look at the future events that might happen whenever in case European Union collapses due to issues, we can somehow say that there will be a huge replacement of organization that will unify not just the strong nations with great powers, but all of the nations around the world. In this case, cryptocurrency will play a major role in making this even possible. With the issues related to finance and economy, crypto might be the next line of technology. Going back to the topic, European Union isn't just focused on financial aspect, but in a whole economic scope. 1 country such as UK that left the EU will impact greatly to the EU as we all know, UK is one of the most powerful.

The Euro is a failure because it is the very idea of Europe that is failing: bringing together peoples with different languages and cultures, which historically have always made war, which have a very different economic capacity could not give any other result.
On the other hand, it is probable that without the euro every European nation would have been crushed between America and China, so perhaps the Euro is the lesser evil.

This is why we are also humans and are created imperfect, there is no human being that can ever achieve such thing naturally without having some people to actually talk to them, teach them and even control them, which I think that it is even the lack of understanding of some certain things that do lead to some of these attitude most humans out up and I wonder what our religious leaders are actually teaching?

It is still part of the efforts from the side of our great leaders that all these European unions and the rest are being formed to actually create unity among men, but some of our religious leaders that ought to be preaching this unity too among men are just busy taking advantage of the gospel to collect money from people and preach more of prosperity than they preach about unity.

Was there ever a time when there is unity among men? There was none. Even in the smallest unit of the society, inside the family, there is not even unity. How can we envision it to a larger scale as to the entire world? This is not going to happen at all. Unity is only a concept. That is something we cannot find in the hard world. If there is unity, there would not have been wars, colonization, poverty, discrimination, injustice, and so on.

Until we ourselves starts to accept that the Almighty God has already given us the dominion over our things personally before we can get to that stage where we have to start correcting some of these super power things, and like you said, we have so many animals in the world in form of human being and they are the ones that would like to rule us, which is also why our financial system is really not favoring us that much and if someone has great as Satoshi has really create d a system that will assist.

I see no reason why we should not embrace it fully, but instead, we still have some of those humans also who are super rich discouraging people through the way that they manipulate the market, so I am really wondering how we are going to eventually get this freedom that we deserve.

Totally agree with you that migrant workers perform the low-paid and undesirable jobs. In the UK they also perform a lot of highly skilled jobs, particularly in the NHS. I can't stand the sense of entitlement from rabid nationalists who complain about foreigners who actually contribute far more to the economy than the nationalists do, as well as performing vital services. I couldn't care less where someone happened to be born. You can be a good, hard-working person no matter where you're from or what language you speak. Equally you can be a lazy good-for-nothing bigot no matter where you're from. The person is the important thing, not some accident of birth that means you "belong" to a given nation.

For anyone who's interested and hasn't seen it before here's a link to one of the UK's best satirists talking about nationalism and immigration. 5 minutes long but worth a watch.

Let's not overreact just because UK had a little fall off with EU, they were never really fully involved anyway, they had their own currency whereas everyone else moved to Euro for example.

The European block is not quite strong but it never was, people who thought Europe as a whole thing where nations pick their representatives and nations were ruled in one EU committee were always wrong, your own politician that you pick as president (or prime minister) has always been your ruler, there was some rules that needed to be followed of course but it was always people electing the politicians with the most power in that nation.

If people elected the most corrupt and idiot politicians out there then there is nothing EU can do and it is irrelevant to EU because nothing has changed about their rules for the 20 years, so if EU is the same for 20 years, any change must be coming from the nations.

I think these decline and falls stories just keep on coming and going away. I have heard a lot of stories  since my childhood about how the fiat is a fire which will burn the whole world. First got this idea from a guy claiming that fiat will end and digital gold will come and this would happen in 2016 then came the Crypto wave which said countries will fall apart. I think all this is not happening anywhere in the near future. Moreover I think this is more of a political issue than an economic issue.

Well, using the same analogy, the idea would have been that there would be 28 ships all tied together, not really side by side stuck together situation but at least with a good long rope, which would mean that any ship, which could be Greece, could get hit by an iceberg but that means 27 other ships would carry their loads to carry Greece out of sinking possibility, all ships carrying their load depending on the size of the ship, eventually while they are not sinking the Greece ship would fix their holes and carry out the water they got in and be back in perfect conditions and not need help anymore, in turn when another ship gets hit, Greece will be able to help. That didn't happen of course, they thought it would but didn't, whoever got hit by iceberg realized they are carried anyway so they didn't cared to fix anything.

The UK has such a big economy that Brexit means the EU's GDP will shrink by 16%.

There are 27 countries left in the EU, and of those only five are net contributors. So the strain on those economies to fill the financing gap left by the UK will be immense.

We shall find out in the next recession whether the EU survives or not.

EU is too weak to do anything about Turkey, and at the same time, Turkey is blackmailing the EU with the millions of refugees it holds under its control. But Turkey's military operation actually benefits the EU, because Turkey plans to create safe zones in northern Syria and move most refugees to those areas. But as we can see, official Damascus joins Kurds in defending their borders with Russian support, which only opens up the possibility of a major military conflict.

It is not true that EU is failed completely with imposing an embargo on weapons, some countries do that (Netherlands, Finland, Sweden) and others countries follow EU governments limit arms sales to Turkey but avoid embargo

I think Europe is still important to the USA as an essential ally, although the number of their soldiers dropped significantly, but there is 38 000+ of them only in
Germany and total 65 000 all over Europe.

It's no secret, though, that official US policy with Trump has largely backed the UK's exit from the EU, because they want to maintain the status of the most powerful nation in the world, and one way is to weaken the EU and China, what is exactly going on with more or less success.

Of course they won't adopt any decentralized currency, why else would they spend so much time and money on research of the creation of their own digital currency? It wouldn't make sense at all.

I consider countries not adopting Bitcoin to be a good thing---it means that in case some large countries are in conflict with each other, Bitcoin won't be attacked in an attempt to damage the country that adopted it.

The more distance there is between governments and Bitcoin the better. I see a lot of people hope that governments will choose Bitcoin as their currency, but there are more cons than pros to it.

All countries must help one another in world peace because without war stability will be maintained. Talking about unity means talking about sacrificing the interests of one country for the common good

The issue of the dissolution of the European Union was widely raised after the 2016 British referendum which decided to leave the European Union (Brexit). Talking about international politics will not be separated from the theory of national interests and geo-political geostrategic issues. Members of the European Union consist of 28 countries, which means 28 interests and each has a strategy, there are no eternal friends and opponents, only eternal interests. As long as the European Union is considered to benefit the interests of each country, its members will certainly survive.

I think the European Union is concentrated on trade and economics. In a simple calculation is a matter of profit and loss. Although the economic condition of the European Union is experiencing a slowdown due to the effects of the sluggish global economy. This is proof that the European Union does not have the bargaining power to fend off this problem.

The problem of Turkey's membership proposals that are not protracted is also a matter of division. Geopolitically and Geo strategically, Turkey's position is very important for the European Union because Turkey is Europe's buffer and liaison with Asia. Turkey's military action to the Syrian border which is controlled by the Kurdish military has become a slap for the European Union countries on the importance of Turkey's position. The European Union condemned Turkey's military attack but failed to embargo on Turkey because of the threat of the President of Turkey who will open shells of refugees to the European Continent if an EU country condemns Turkey. Turkish predecessors claim that Kurdish militants on the Syrian border are supported by the US military. Evidenced by the US Government to withdraw its troops from Syria.

The latest failure of the European Union is the loss of its great ally the United States since President Donald Trump came to power. America with its America First policy immediately ignores its old ally, Europe

That is what is going to happen when the fiat system will finally succumb to the new blockchain technology. Even at this point, we can see how the future holds. China is announcing that it will also be creating its own digital currency. But what will not happen is these national sovereigns adopting Bitcoin or any altcoin as their national currency. But it is possible that Bitcoin is going to become a de facto global currency.

National sovereignty is one of the main reasons why a single global Crypto currency would fail. Everyone is talking about Bitcoin conquering the world and having a single reserve currency, but that is just a pipe dream in my opinion.

You cannot have a single reserve currency and have 200 smaller nations bad economic decisions pulling down the stronger nations, making the good decisions. I see a future where every sovereign country would have it's own government backed Crypto currency or Blockchain based technology. 

I don't think the European Union will easily collapse when there are too many powers. Although the UK has left the EU, there are still the United States, France, Italy, ... countries with very developed services and relatively high GDP.
Even if there are many FUDs about this association, I still believe that they will not easily collapse. The EU actually creates important bridges in trade between countries.

70 years of peace in the EU.
This between countries that were at war for centuries and even before these same countries were even born the people living in those territories were at war. A bloody history is nearly coming to an end and people still think is bad.

The EU is a nightmare for every other great power.
Russia is scared as shit of such a Union, in their entire history, they haven't been able to win a war against a coalition from Europe without help from the same space, they can't even to dare to think of a war, be it traditional or economical with a union 4 times as big in population and 10x bigger in economy terms.
The US is also in the same position, China thinks the same, a fractured Europe is the best thing they can dream of.


Yeah, it's the least integrated but not because of those.
Imagine driving from NY to Washington and in Wilmington, you have to change lines and drive on the other side of the road. 

Even if Great Britain leaves the European Union, I do not think that this will significantly affect the deterioration of the position of the European Union itself. Any association of states in the economic and financial sphere, and even more so the union of about three dozen states, sharply reduces the possibility of conflicts in this region, and even more so the emergence of any kind of military tension. Therefore, any such alliances of states should be welcomed.
Of course, labor conflicts of interest will appear regularly in such an alliance. Even in a unitary state, conflicts of interests of individual administrative units in this state are not complete. We need to learn to live in peace, and not to constantly fight each other.

The problem is that Europe has tried to unite people who - in terms of culture, language, traditions and economic power are too different.
And eventually it turned into a super Germany and all the other countries in her service.
Needless to say, it will not last.

Brexit hasn't failed - they negotiating a deal as we speak and it's likely it will get agreed by parliament next week.

Britain is the least integrated of the European countries - exports to the EU were 66% of the total in the year 2000 but had dropped to 44% in the year 2016 (the year of the referendum). Britain has been decoupling from the EU for two decades.

European Union is a communistic super-state and it must be destroyed!

To first see the true initiative that shaped the idea of a United Europe, we have to look at the man behind it all, Altiero Spinelli.
Spinelli, a communist even during Mussolini’s government, was one of the most influential people who formed the EU. He was a member of the European Commission for 6 years, from 1970-1976 (he left voluntarily), as well as a member of the European Parliament for seven years after. A strong supporter of Trotsky, his views were so radical that the Italian Communist Party threw him out.
Trotskyism is a subset-ideology of Marxism-Leninism that proposes a permanent communist revolution in all countries, not only ones that the Trotskyists take control of. This shows how dangerous Spinelli’s ideas were, even towards non-Europeans.
One may ask about his views for European unity, but he simply goes much too far with it. Spinelli called for European federalism, which would make all European countries into one and diminish the importance of nationhood.
In order to understand what European Union actually is one have to read it's ideological foundation, that is Ventotene manifesto by Spinelli.

Few quotes from said manifesto, that is an official EU document:
No it is not! Because nobody is electing those who invent the laws, the EU commission.  

We can criticize the European Union. It really had and will have its own internal problems, because in our world there is nothing perfect. However, such an alliance on the scale of 28 states is already a great achievement of mankind, which should be cherished and protected. In my opinion, there have never been cases in the history of mankind that such a number of independent states pursued a common financial policy.
If Britain wants, let it leave this union. Membership here is voluntary. This is the only way to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of such an alliance. In any case, such associations of states should be encouraged. With such alliances, there will be much less conflict in the world.

That's true! I myself live in a country of the eu and can only confirm that. WW2 was terrible for the people and no one wants something like that to happen again. I still remember the horrible experiences of my grandparents. They told me a lot about what they went through in the war and I don't want to experience that personally. That alone is why many people want to hold on to the EU and believe in it. Even if the EU is not perfect and there are many problems, it is still better than a new war in europe.

....

The european union faces the same problems nearly every other nation around the globe faces atm. Taxes are too high. The majority of tax revenues are allocated towards wealth redistribution programs which make the rich richer and the poor poorer. This is very obvious in the USA where we have trillions allocated towards defense contractors like lockheed martin whose largest controlling shareholders are wallstreet one percenters. The same form of wealth redistribution happens in countries like greece, even if its not as noticeable.

Well to compensate for the US government allocating more than $1 trillion to wallstreet owned defense contractors like lockheed martin they say the solution is taxes need to be raised higher. Of course, raising taxes never fixes anything--it simply means the government has more money to spend on wars in the middle east and assorted programs which benefit the wealthy and elitist special interest groups. This enables a vicious cycle of state sanctioned wealth and wage inequality.

In addition to that, high taxes have an intrinsic negative effect on economic growth and prosperity. China is a prime example of this they have adopted policies of deregulation which spurred decent levels of economic growth and prosperity. It might be fair to say Donald Trump spurred economic growth in the US by cutting taxes and making america a more attractive investment and country to conduct business. This may be the example countries like greece should follow. Tax cuts and deregulation to strengthen the economy. With an emphasis on the state allocating less revenue towards special interest one percenter programs with a greater emphasis on the common good.

There's nothing really noteworthy or special about improvements that might be made, its only the basics. The issue is most don't know what the basics are?

In spite of everything, the European Union continues to exist. Any state has its own problems and shortcomings. And in the union of their countres even more. I do not live in the European Union and it is difficult for me to be objective in this matter, but it seems to me that the main problem within the EU is a migrant and bureaucratic machine that is unable to respond quickly to real people's problems. Many problems are trying to hush up, and this is very bad, because it causes people even more discontent. I also dare to suggest that the difference in the standard of living in different countries can also be the basis for conflicts. But, I repeat, the EU continues to exist, and I think it will exist for a long time.

It seems that you have no idea or just hate the EU
OK I did a google and looked at the first hits

Immigration policy : http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/152/immigration-policy

Tax policy : https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/taxation_en
True that tax is based on the local government. The local goverment pays the EU. It's just a different system.
In US you have state and federal taxes which is basically the same system except that the EU has simplified the system.

Common legislation : https://eur-lex.europa.eu/browse/summaries.html

Common Army : No common army but our armies work together very well. This means all EU countries can work individually or as a team.

Common Executive : Nope we don't have an autocrat at the top. We have representatives in a european parlement.

EU is a democracy of democracies.

etc....

Many forces stop want EU to nox exist anymore
There are radical left and radical right movements
But EU has to exist from one cardinal reason
There was not war in EU area all that time when EU exist
Memories about WW2 are still alive and people in Europe don't want that happen again

Greece collided with an Iceberg every historical period from the iceage  They are the ones that invented bankruptcy !!!

A lot of countries have faced recession, a lot have gone bankrupt, a lot has been destroyed for centuries and look at them...they are sailing..
From your analogy we can draw only one conclusion, never help anybody cause they are going to die no matter what you anyway.


And what are those problems and what is the solution for them?


Yeah, the blockchain, the magic pill that will save us all when the rapture comes!

This is truth, but also agreeing with you i must add that i don't believe the fall of the European Union will happen really soon even with all of those problems. Some countries will still support them unless they are pushed to leave too.

It's truth also that the lack of quick solutions doomed their once very impressive organization. I remember something i heard in a documentary before: "Politics is a wheel that spins really slow, you can only try to make it quicker".

for now, the news about the economic crisis in the European Union was so warm, even earlier this morning there was news that Britain declared an exit from the European Union, and the news immediately sent negative sentiment towards the stock market, but I feel fortunate that the news has not affected much on the price of bitcoin, according to predictions January should be a green market for investment because early in the year many people spent year-end funds for investment.
listening to the news of the crisis in the European Union, it might be the impact of fiat money weaknesses, and too much third party interference that is not transparent in terms of debt and many fishing in turbid water. But if the blockchain system is implemented it might reduce current problem

Saying it's because of the currency is not only false, it's also stupid.

EU has dozens of problems:
-no common external policy
-no immigration policy
-no common taxation
-no common laws in general
-no common army
-no common executive
-no democratical system

Currency is just A PART of the problem.
Not the smallest one but still.

I'll try to outline the european union's current status quo. Would be curious to know whether people agree or disagree with my portrayal.

Imagine that greece is represented by a ship. The ship that is greece strikes an iceberg which damages its economy, it begins to sink. Another ship known as great britain lashes itself to greece to temporarily prevent greece from sinking into economic depression. This presents a form of temporary relief and economic stability for greece but the underlying problems go unaddressed and unresolved.

Over the long term, is it inevitable that the ship known as greece will sink and drag the ship known as great britain into the cthulhu infested abyss with it?

That is my question and my main concern with the european union. Can it be relied upon to fix real issues and address economic concerns. Or is its economic relief destined to remain formatted around a series of bailouts where wealthier and more stable nations constantly sacrifice their wealth and prosperity to bailout economically poorer and more unstable regions. There may be a subtle difference between solving problems and merely throwing money at problems. Being trillions in debt both the EU and USA cannot continue the way they've been going ad infinitum.

The european union is somewhat similar to the $400B trade deficit the united states has with china. Wealth is generally moving in one direction. While this can be sustained for a time, there is nothing that says it has particularly positive long term implications.

It is not the fall of European union just because monetary system is crumbling. It is also a problem that migration created a trouble among these places, just because one country allows migrants doesn't mean other should and that creates a tension between countries, one country has a lot of debt while the other has a surplus is also a problem as well.

I mean Germany has been seen a bad country just because they are making a profit while others are losing money, that is not German problem that is other countries problem but unfortunately the countries with debt like Greece see Germany has a new reach system or whatever. Hence, it is a political problem as much as a economical problem, if the countries that create these problems were ruled more efficiently and better than there wouldn't be these troubles.

Look at Scandinavian countries, they have almost exactly the same issues as almost all Europe but they are not seen bad, many leftists use them as example, why ? Because, even though they have the same trouble as the other countries, they do not meddle with other countries, they are always going along good with others. Have you ever heard Sweden, Norway or Denmark to ever have a beef with any country ? No.

Do they have zero problems ? Of course not. That means the trouble lies with not countries inside but their actions against each other.

Well, Brexit failed and I don't think the EU is going to its decline in the nearest future. The countries are tightly interrelated and dependent on each other now. That's a great risk for anyone to quit on this stage.

EU sells military equipment to Greece in order to keep the Union safe from Turkey. Greece has a high Defence Budget (one of the highest in the EU) even if it is a small country and with unstable economic growth.
If EU was so supportive and injecting money to Greece, wouldn't it be smarter to cut their spendings and substitute them with Union ones?

There may be many direct parallels between the european union and social security in the USA.

Americans have spent the last 5+ decades discussing how social security will fail. The debate is so old, many believe social security will never fail simply because it hasn't happened yet although people have said it will happen for a long time. The basic fundamentals suggest social security is structured poorly in a way that is intrinsically unsustainable. Everytime this harsh reality emerges, and the program becomes insolvent, the state hikes taxes to make the program feasible again. Inevitably sometime in the future we will reach a point where it becomes infeasible to hike taxes further, the program will become unsustainable and collapse. This negative analysis applies to many nation's of the world whose respective governments adopt a pseudo science stance expecting high population growth coupled with expected tax revenue growth as a means to support pension and retirement programs like social security ad infinitum.

They don't name or address any of the real problems. They simply assume if global populations continue to grow @ a high rate, we'll reach a point where successive generations outnumber existing generations enough to cover the insolvency of pension programs like ss. This faulty analysis is further compounded by the potential for machines and robots to kill jobs and further reduce the tax collection potential of individuals to cover the widening wealth gap of pensions.

In terms of fundamental mechanics, many of the negative issues associated with the european union and social security stem from a hard insistence that none of the systemic flaws present should ever be named or addressed.

The european union suffers from a simple systemic flaw: rather than fixing economies or basic problems which contribute to economies being in dire straits, they rely perpetually on bailouts. Wealthy EU nations like great britain perpetually bailout the economies of weaker nation's like greece. None of the real problems ever get fixed. Countries with weak economies drag countries with stronger economies down with them, until eventually everyone is living in poverty.

It might be said that social security and the european union are both ticking economic timebombs. No one can be certain of the date or time these programs will explode causing widespread panic and disorder. But due to the inherent unsustainability of both, it may be inevitable that both will reach insolvency and collapse @ some point in time.

Although status of European Union is not very promising recently, members of EU have enough power to challenge difficulties that they have now. UK has been causing to a growing crack on EU, but other members show enough commitment to keep EU together and start to assume the responsibilities that UK has not fulfilled.

I'm really sure that spending 40 million on a fighter plane that cost additional 100k for every hour of flight is a good investment because....Really, what's the ROI on it?


We ask the US for help because we are in an alliance, that is what an alliance is for!!!
If the US is not interested in that alliance good for them, from my point of view I don't give a ****


Of course, when it's data from 2010 published by a tabloid that had a series of Adolf Hitlers's journal...


Or people who hate it just because they don't understand or need somebody to shift the blame on
After all, the British voted for Brexit because anything more than a colored buss with 350 printed on it was the limit of understanding.

Haters gonna hate, but the EU is here to stay.


If either of these two goes down we're *** at so many levels 2008 will look like a happy ending massage

How the money invested in defense can be wasted money? Fact is that your country, and some others members of EU literally beg USA to help you defend your boundaries which means you're incapable of doing this by yourself. It would be normal to ask help from Brussels or from Berlin for this matter, but it only show how EU is "united".

I see you stick to that 5 billion €, but truth is that Greece is get much more since they debt is around 300€ billion, so you will need to give up few more frappucino to help them to get out of the mud.

For all the rest makes no sense to write anything else, every information you do not like to read or hear is propaganda.

Define rotten foundation? The large economies within the EU are fairly solid (ie. Germany and France), most of the smaller ones too, with frictionless trade and freedom of movement enabling growth and skill exchange that otherwise wouldn't be as easily possible. Some countries probably shouldn't have been allowed to join yet (sorry Greece) and there's definitely a lack of an European identity, but apart from that I feel that the good outweights the bad. The refugee crisis would have happened either way. But that's just my point of view, what's yours?



While I don't see the future of the EU and the Euro quite as dim I also hold assets in USD and other fiat currencies as part of a risk diversification strategy. Not the majority in my case though, as I don't trust the USD much more than the EUR and in the end I still have to pay my rent in EUR.

Bitcoin has strong fundamentals, keeps gaining traction, and has the potential to actually become a digital form of Gold or perhaps even a reserve currency, you never know. The EU and the Euro on the other hand, are built on a rotten foundation, and that's something pretty difficult to discard and is rightfully seen as a ticking time bomb.

I do however agree that news outlets and the people who are sucking them off are just reading what they want to read without looking/thinking further, but you can't avoid that. I am holding the majority of my fiat savings in US dollars instead of the Euro, which I am very happy with, because I have little to no faith in the EU as a whole at all.

I hope that it won't happen, but I can't rule out that the Euro may end up dropping well below the US dollar in the forthcoming years. I protected myself in advance just in case it does turn out ot happen.

To some extend it feels like the EU and the Euro have been pronounced dead or dying almost as often as Bitcoin. In both cases these obituaries seem to come from people with an outside vantage point with little insider experience.


@Lucius:

Granted, many citizens are discontent with the EU government (besides NK, which government has a 100% approval rating anyway?), some may even want their original currencies back, but truth be told the economies of our countries would be rather stifled and constrained without the Euro or the EU. The European nations need to operate in unity if they want to compete even marginally with economic power horses as the US and China. We have many small countries in the EU; if our economic zone would be as fragmented as our local cultures are diverse, growing a business big or small beyond our respective national borders would be harder than it already is.

Why do you say that based on this article I did not understand..
Difficult times between Europe and the United States began more than a year ago. And who would not say that everything is good between these countries-is deeply mistaken.
The US is far from being stupid and is also trying in every way to weaken the strength of the European Union and the strong currency of the EURO, as their economy also suffers from this. Before the collapse of the European Union and the abolition of the common currency is still very far away, but the constant disputes in the European Union and the desire of many States to separate speaks of tension in some countries. Proof of this is not one held a referendum. This is just the beginning...

I'll enjoy it till the end. Mine will come first I would say.


Oh, so it's the fault of the EU we don't want to waste money on an arms race but unfortunately, we have a mad dog at our borders.

This is hilarious.
You were bringing in the whole argument of the EU downfall being 5.1 billion in helping Greece and now you want the EU to spend 500 billions a year on weapons and army.



One, google "stern magazine'" and even if you don't speak german check the images
Second,

What I was saying about propaganda...

Third

stompix, you like EU and how it works and you should enjoy while it lasts. You are somewhat convinced that the EU provides all the possibilities for your country, how about defense? You country ask USA to come and protect you from Russia, and your country will pay 2$ billion for that. It's a very poor union when countries (not only Poland) ask protection at the other end of the world.

Regarding people want back their national currencies back just use google, but here is article from late 2011, 54% of Germans vote for deutsche mark - do you think that number is smaller or bigger today?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-germany-mark/most-germans-want-deutsche-mark-back-poll-shows-idUSTRE7941M320111005

It seems like there is a lot of fish food, 10 years and there is still plenty left even for economic growth.


Pretty easy, about 10 euros per citizen to save a country...
A frappucino in Warsaw is 5.40 euros.


But is still growth, the apocalypse didn't happen and it won't.


2010...common
And please tell me the source is not one of those that always paint the euro as the worst thing ever.


Yeah, and those humans are the same that are getting paid and are sending back billions to their country.
1.2 billion in remittances from UK to Poland alone.

Total EU spending in Poland: € 11.921 billion
Total Polish contribution to the EU budget: € 3.048 billion

The evilz EU......

Besides, there is a huge flaw in your view of the EU , you're still thinking in terms of countries, and this should not be done anymore in a true Union.
Nobody should care about the gdp or average wage or minimum wage in a country, we're in an union for a reason.

The worker's migration happens even at the country level, who is moving to Paris and who is moving to Vierzon, you can't stop this and it's against all the things we promote here to do so.
You want another warsaw pact or what?

If a country can't care for its workers why should those there be forced to live in poverty?

Oh, and btw, this stuff


I've heard it even before the EU. It was part of the Soviet propaganda where evil capitalist states will treat our country as colonies such surprise it turned out to be just propaganda.

Greece is not gone bankrupt or left EU just because EU decide to save them with money of all EU citizens, if you think 5.1 billion € is nothing, maybe ask yourself how much of that money came from your country. Economic growth of Greece is just a joke, they are buried so deep in their economic disaster that only flow of money from EU keep them alive. Year when Greece can repay debt is set to 2059, so I guees it is little more then 5 billion €.



2010 49% of Germans say they want deutschmark back, and most of people in Europe like their currency more then €. The national currency is part of a national identity and financial independence. € is also printing as needed, same as any other fiat currency.



I know vision of EU, big fish need to eat small ones and take all that is worth of them, and now the most valuable resource are humans. Millions of them left their countries to work in West Europe, building the economy of some other countries but their own.

Greece is lived above all their expectations, their salaries, pensions and extra benefits were above every logic. Now all EU need to pay for that, except few countries which refuse to participate in it.

Conflicts between member states of the European Union will periodically arise. Nobody hoped that everything would be going smoothly. And so, surprisingly, the European Union has existed for about two decades. It is still a completely different state. Here, England wanted to go out, and when they really saw that they were being released, many changed their minds. The European Union offers many advantages, however, and imposes a number of restrictions on the country and its citizens. Here you need to choose and choose carefully.

If Greece hasn't gone bankrupt it's because Europe injected millions in the country. Yes, sure Greece hasn't left the EU, it is because the fishes still have food to eat. When famine comes, the fish will eat in another ocean.
Greece economic growth: it's easy when you still have your parents cleaning your mistakes...

If Greece is to be blamed why the European citizens should pay? when you say "the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly." what are you talking about

You have clearly no idea about the vision of the European Union. Also, you are not aware of the situation that Greece is going through so far. Greece is to be blamed for its bureaucratic model but the money that was spent in Greece wasn't at the same rate as the growth that Greece is giving to the Eurozone indirectly.

Greece became a cheap place for businesses and many Greeks scientists have left the country and now they work around Central Europe, giving money to companies that operating in the European Union and eventually contributing to the GDP of EU. Mistakes occurred from both sides but before blaming, better see the whole picture.

The point is:
a) Greece hasn't gone bankrupt
b) Greece hasn't left the EU
c) Greece is experiencing economic growth
and

5.1 billion? You realize that the GDP of the EU is 18.7 trillion, right?


Define many....
If I run into a guy that wants the old coins back out of 100 I would consider myself lucky
What is so good for having their own currency other than printing as much as they want, which is not something we're to keen on experiencing here on btctalk ?

Oh, and about the Visegrad group, in which my country is also a member
It was established before any of them entered the EU, and the main purpose of it was to coordinate the integration of all 3 (then 4) counties in NATO and EU

Do you know how much money EU invest so far to save Greece and Eurozone? More then 5.1 billion € is pumped in that country, and who knows how much more money will go in that direction. If EU did not that, Greece might be the beginning of the end for €, so EU is saving one country to save union not to break down.

UK is never accept € and this was a smart move, one worries less when they finally leave EU. All other countries who who have left their national currencies and introduced € are related and dependent on each other. In my opinion this is more risk then advantage, one country in problems drag all others down.

Also many citizens of EU wants to keep their national currencies, but who ask them what they want - they are forced to use €. Long-term I think the EU has no chance, it is simply an alliance made up of too many different countries most of which have some of their interest, so some of them make union inside union. UK is just first country, but not the last who left EU.

It;s true only until these 'nationalists' need to clean their own toilets or do any other low-qualified job. What do you think is the percentage of French, Germans and UK's in areas like cleaning, truck drivers, seasonal workers for picking up the crops? I can tell you - close to zero. All western countries are highly dependant from non-western workers in too many areas. If UK initialise a 2nd referendum for Brexit, they will never quit. Because after the 2nd, somebody will want 3rd, 4th and so on.

Yeah, decline and fall...
Like the one the US is experiencing from when I was little.....40 years ago

I clearly remember the Greek crisis, the EU is doomed, Greece is doomed, PIGS...remeber the PIGS....
Zerohedge was printing 20 articles a day, the end is near, the end is near
And ten years have passed and no end.

I find it ironic that you posted this when suddenly the chances of the UK actually remaining in the EU have started to go up

Oh, and from your blog:




You don't know when it's time to give it u, do you?

That a single currency, the euro, would fracture rather than unite Europe was understood long before the euro's introduction as legal tender on January 1, 2002. The euro, the currency of 19 of the 28 member states of the European Union, is only one of the various institutions tying the member nations of the European union together, but it is the linchpin of the financial integration touted as one of the primary benefits of EU membership.

Skepticism of the benefits of EU membership is rising, as citizens of the member nations are questioning the surrender of national sovereignty with renewed intensity...


Read the full article here:

https://goldsilvernews.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-decline-and-fall-of-european-union.html