Topic: The due: please think before supporting or opposing a scam accusation (Read 555 times)

Unlike value bet --that's explained above-- group bets and betting syndicate are actually considered as a violation by many casinos and explicitly stated as forbidden on their ToS. Snippets of those rule are as below,

Isn't that what's called arbitrage betting? I've never done it but I feel like it's a legit way of minimizing potential losses.
What you've said is more or less how I see the situation.

Let's say this is a group, as long as they all go through KYC that proves each account is owned by a different person and they simply communicate to place bets together, that's being smart, not cheating.

As for accusations, I usually try to check how the casino responds to the problem. Usually the casino tries to take user's money and delay things for as long as possible, which is like taking revenge on the player. That's completely unprofessional behavior presented by the casino.

That’s the thing. You cannot and should not make gambling your job. It is the only way you can win means it is the only way the casinos lose money. Casinos want to make money in the long run and you want the same thing. Both of you cannot coexist. One of you should stop and I can assure you it won’t be the casinos.

Take that any way you like.

You simply cannot win in the long run. Even if you beat math, you’ll lose to ToS. There is a reason why the casinos ban stuff like arbitrage betting, ev betting etc. they make them lose money.

You can get lucky and win every once in a while.

The casinos are always lucky in the grand scheme of things. Being lucky is their job.

In regards to BC's "hypocrisy", I can probably explain this part based on what casino representatives explained to me. Basically, it goes in line with what BGC said, regarding sportsbook providers and how they tagged people.

On some cases, casinos [though not all] are actually don't have issue with value bettor, that's probably why BC have that page on their academy [I didn't glance at that link and take your word for it], but from time to time, their sportsbook provider detected some abusive behavior and asked the casino to hold the winning.

We are not strictly speaking about value betting, there are numerous cases of bets being held for investigation for several reasons, like arbing, limitation circumvention, odds manipulation, you name it. On some of these cases, as it is well known, it's the provider who ask for that investigation, not the casino's own initiative.

Going back to the value betting and BC [or other casinos], most of the time, if the violation is not too severe [let's say they're just value betting and not multi-acc-ing] or on what they can tolerate, they'll just let the case go. Which I shall assume means they're paying those users from their own pocket, given the provider will not pay the winning.

This should explains [actually, more to strengthen what BGC said] why GekkeBelg got flagged numerous times across platform, because the providers have his data, he's been marked by the providers.

So, with above paragraphs as an addition, since you brushed it on your last sentence, I'll repeat my previous reflection, does GekkeBelg innocent? I'll stay with my previous answer: no.

I believe he's well versed on casino and how they works. I mean, IIRC he claimed he's been playing on hundred of sportbook? He certainly more or less realized how things work with sportsbook and their provider, and he still utilize this strategy, knowing those casinos are paying him from their own pocket.

So, is he wrong? No. But is he innocent? Also no.

Sorry, my bad. My last post was supposed to be an explanation for the other readers why value betting isn't something bad.
Why did I mention BC.Game so much? It's just random luck. First I pointed out that GekkeBelg made a mistake against them. Then I found their 'betting academy' and wanted to point out the hypocrisy of sportbooks.

They ended up paying GekkeBelg, even though they didn't have to(According to their TOS).


Overall I think we are on the same page.
I would say yes, but obviously I'm very biased.

I'll invite you to read my posts again, carefully, and return here once you did.


BC? Why BC? GekkeBelg opened scam accusations across many platforms. The most recent one, of which prompt BGC to finally do his investigation, was with coins.game. People are talking in general here, and you're focusing on... BC? Because he didn't get refund on that case, or for what reason is it does BC specifically being mentioned over and over?

I analyzed his bets and compared the odds. The pattern is the same every time.
Soft
Sharper
These types of edges are small, but it's enough to profit in the long run.

He's a live value bettor, and there's nothing wrong with that. The goal of sportsbetting is to turn a profit. As long as he didn't break the rules, the sportsbook should honor his bets.
The funniest thing is that Bc.Game is coaching people on how to value bet:
https://betting.bc.game/betting-academy/types-of-bets/value-bets

1. Teach value betting. 2. Void all the value bets. IQ 200

These kinds of rules should be a massive red flag to all the BC.Game customers. You don't want to win a 30k$ parlay on the site that has every right to void your bet.

There are a lot of reasons why sportsbooks don't add rules about value betting. It would be incredibly off-putting for all the customers(Even the losers) and in a lot of cases, it's almost impossible to tell if somebody is value betting.

Okay, thank you for the... clarification. Where do you get or implied it from? A quick search on GekkeBelg's post seems bear zero result of him talking about this specific technic, so I think he doesn't make it public.


And determine the best platform to place the bets according to those comparison. Thus, value betting.


Now, that is the good practice of using ToS from casino's side. That thing works both ways.


Please rephrase.

I mentioned his strategy before, it's called the top down method.
The Top Down Method is when you identify a sharp line from a sportsbook and consider that your “source of truth.” You then pick off advantageous bets at other sportsbooks based on that source of truth.

That's it, there's nothing fancy about it. No arbitrage betting, no syndicate betting. Just some guy comparing odds.

Technically he messed up against BC.Game, because they are freerolling all of their customers: 3.3 Sportsbook platform reserves the right to refuse, restrict, cancel or limit any bet. That's why he lost his AskGamblers case against Bc.Game.

What about the losers who wrongly think that they are value betting? Most sportsbettors think they have an edge but in reality only 2% win.
What if I don't know if I have an edge or not? It's incredibly hard to define what exactly is a valuebet, especially if you bet on smaller markets.

Umm... two scammers... who? On the link you provided, it's rather clear that --coming from the seemingly impaired and dented logic of yours-- the scammer is blackjack.fun. But here, on this thread? Who exactly do you refer as a scammer that BGC defended? GekkeBelg? The casino? Which casino?

---

Now, regarding GekkeBelg, I've been silent and observing this thread from a corner for quite some time. I personally think this is unfair for BGC, as I am the one who asked him a follow-up about his investigation and [I believe] I made him publish this thread.

To lay it out in the open, I am in a very tight position.

As stated on my last [and only] post here, I reached to GekkeBelg and exchanged one or two PMs regarding this [and his absence from this thread]. I am not sure how much liberty I have to brush this topic without violating the confidentiality entailed a PM, how much can I say without him considering me violating the private nature of the information he gave me, and I've been mulling over the best approach to address this issue ever since.

So I think the best approach will be to disregard everything and start new.

I think, I can safely say that GekkeBelg is a value bettor, he made it known on one occasion,


though on other [earlier] cases, he denied such practice


Do casinos prohibit this strategy? Well, as several users already mentioned here, no. At least not those who had conflict with GekkeBelg. I take a quick stroll on those casinos and can't find value betting on their ToS or sports-rules [I am currently reaching some casinos' representatives to get a better understanding of their view on this, just to be sure] with exception of WinTomato who explicitly describe they prohibit this strategy.

Does that automatically translates that GekkeBelg is, WinTomato aside, innocent here? I say, "no".

As many people know [at least those who has the privilege to experience adulthood], we live in the massive gray, it is not a simple yes or no, he's wrong so she's right, there are many shades in between, and this is where GekkeBelg resides.

He had/has experience with casinos. Plural. He probably experimented on them, see who tolerate his strategy and who won't; looking for those who will limit him, those who will refund his money and lock the door behind his back, and those who take a bold action and refuses his winning.

It's suffice to say he understand that, although it is not against rules, casinos are very much against this practice. And he pushed his luck by trying every casino, hopping from one to another. There even a slight probability that he weaponized it, upon learning that casinos are prohibiting the practice from WinTomato [the one who happen to have the rule on their ToS], he made sure to check every casinos he played doesn't specify this on their ToS, so when it's used against him, his situation is bulletproof.

Is that wrong? Umm, I'll say that's actually clever and that's how ToS should be used.

But are those ethical and acceptable? Well, I'll leave this to every individual to decide.

I personally think that this thread has served its purpose, to inform us that there is more than meet the eye with GekkeBelg. He's sharp and knows his way around. So next case with him, [note to self] it's probably a good idea to touch it with one-meter-long pole and a healthy pinch of salt.

Unless... if LM is in the mood of spilling some tea? Beans, perhaps? I am readying my pen and notebook. LOL.

I thought I did not see right when I saw your Thread Title

>please think before supporting or opposing a scam accusation<

How comes that you are supporting/defending 2 Scammers? Are you for real?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.63916884

Guys you can spare any aggressive attacks or foul language. This is a serious discussion and a very good title but sadly created by the wrong one

answering those bunch of signature spammers is pointless . if you notice each one of them wearing a signature of a Casino.  So ofcourse they want to defend the Casinos.
they even got offended since their source of income threatned.  i dont even know the guy they talking about
btw they think we are the same 

Genius, they also have the same odds. How are you supposed to arbitrage bet on Roobet and BC.Game if they have the same odds(Both use Betby as their provider)?

By the way, all of this talk about arbitrage betting is pointless because GekkeBelg was top-down betting.

Villainizing people who don't agree with you? If you can't handle criticism you shouldn't post about topics you don't understand.

Are you the third one after Poika5 and Martingaleboy? Do you see the topic I created makes more sense now?

Do you know who provides the odds to sportsbook? It's odd providers. There are not many odd providers considering the number of sportsbook exists. Many sportsbook have common odd providers and those odd providers store all information of the gamblers who gamble in their clients platforms. Not all are speculation as you think.

It's funny how the members who wearing Casinos signatures is the only ones agree with the OP. 
It's like they are worrying about losing the only source of income they have.
Replying to each other's that's really funny and sad for the bitcointalk.
Anybody who doesn't agree. Or anybody who doesn't get paid by the casinos is an alt.  What a funny discussion. . . .

I got such a proof (not multiple bitcointalk but multiple casino accounts) regarding Gekkebelg from one casino but unfortunately, I was asked to keep the proof secret. And whenever I have read his scam accusations, I had the same feeling that he tries to manipulate discussions with alt account.

On top, he is a proven liar to me. Once he sent me a DM regarding shuffle. I got the notification of his DM, I have seen the message from the notification bar. After a few hours, I received a DM from another telegram user with almost same query. I instantly checked GekkeBelg telegram but found that he deleted the DM and was active 1/2 minutes ago. The new telegram user was also looking for Noah's telegram (shuffle founder). GekkeBelg, from his new telegram, asked me what was his name showing on telegram because he never used telegram and he is new etc etc lol.

And after a discussion with Noah, I learned that GekkeBelg was abusing shuffle as well.

If you take a look at most of all 3 of you guys post histories, it's mostly scam accusations. If I went through and checked I'm sure that some of them are on the same sites around the same times. My speculation holds a little more water than your silly deflection. You don't have to agree and you're free to defend yourself if you feel you need to, but at least show some sort of intelligence if you expect me to reply anymore.

Maybe you and BitcoinGirl are the same person? I mean, you are both equally clueless about this topic. Obviously I'm just speculating.


Sorry, I'm clearly not very intelligent, my time is worth a lot of money and I'm arguing with some guy who thinks that sportsbettors should try to lose. Maybe on Monday I will go to kindergarten and start having arguments with 4-year-olds, who knows?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Maybe they are all part of the same group so they don't all 3 need to respond? Obviously I'm just speculating.

When your winning does not question, when you are gambling without making group, when you are not doing arbitrage betting, when you are not taking advantage of technical fault then no one is going to question your winnings. Even one or two misuse in lifetime is fine but as long as you create an identical fingerprint in your gambling abuse then you will be caught. The sportsbook will limit you, suspend your account. They will enforce everything according to their terms to get rid of you. It's fair because they are running a business and you are going there with the only intention to damage their business.

I was expecting a response, perhaps response with anger from GekkeBelg but he seems gone or have no idea about the topic but it seems you and Martingaleboy so far are doing the job for him.

It is a normal habit for a group of bettors to search for the best odds in the market. It can't be considered as an offensive activity or crime. Even a lot of sportsbook promote themselves by saying that they are providing the best odds. Sportsbook usually consider it as offensive when a user place bets on those odds only which have been listed as higher by mistake. Because the bookmaker won't be able to maintain profit in that case.

AFAIK, sportsbook doesn't slower the feed for all leagues. The feed is fast for the major sports event. But they make the feed slow for some local and unpopular sports event. In most of the cases, arbitrage bettors or value bettors complaints are related to the local league. They try to take advantages of the slow feed by using arbitrage tools. Everyone will use those kinds of betting techniques if sportsbook consider them as normal thing. Which will effect the sportsbook business in a negative way and they have to shut down their business. Betting sites make the feed slow for unpopular and local league as they don't get the updates on time to time from some local regions. The slow feed helps them to update the odds accordingly with the delayed information.

It's acceptable to VOID certain types of bets:

1. Late betting = Somebody has a better feed than the sportsbook, and they can see the next basket/goal before the sportsbook.
2. Obvious pricing errors = Detroit Pistons 58.8 instead of 5.8 etc
3. Matchfixing = abnormal and suspicious betting activity(Random Chinese Esports game gets 100k$ volume, while the standard is 200$).

*Although some sportsbooks do pay "late bettors".

I'm not sure about the whole concept of sports betting. Every casino player wants to take advantage of the casino, that's why they're gambling. If the casino offers a bet that's favourable for the user, and the user manages to find those, doesn't it just mean the user is better at what they're doing than the casino? It's not as if they've hacked the server seed in dice, that would be a clear case of abuse.

I can't see how this would be a loophole. I'd like to read @SirJohnVonSlotty's opinion on this.

Disclaimer: I'm not sure how much of what I posted relates to GekkeBelg. It almost seems philosophical to discuss whether or not taking a bet they offer is abuse, even if you'd be certain you're going to win.

1. The sportsbook chooses the games they offer
2. The sportsbook chose the odds & the maximum bet limits
3. The sportsbook accepted his bets

And now they are playing the victim because someone won.

Got it, what a great idea. Going forward I will always try to lose because casinos are a charity and they need our help.
Yes, casinos are running the most predatory business in the world, BUT these poor souls have to deal with winning sports bettors occasionally! Imagine how hard is it to run a business where 98% of players are losers!

So because they found a loophole you are ok with them taking advantage? I agree that sportsbooks should not offer bets that players can take advantage of, but I also think that people in general shouldn't really be shady anytime they can.

As you have shown in the rest of your post, this guy has accusation after accusation against multiple casinos. If he had 1 or 2 accusations I think his story would hold more weight, but when he has accused more than half the casinos on here, something just makes it feel very shady on his part. On top of that, the community being so quick to judge, has cost the forum multiple campaigns according to replies BitcoinGirl.club posted.

I see the same thing starting to happen with stake.com and their campaign. Some people have opened up multiple threads about the campaigns participants and instead of trying to help stake improve, they are just getting out the pitchforks and trying to crucify the manager. How long til that casino decides to leave the forum as well?

A decent number of replies in all scam accusations shouldn't even be posted IMO. Some are just posting to get a post. Some are probably even competition trying to taint the casino and bring them business.

I'm not saying that casinos are always 100% right and I'm not saying that none of these scam accusations that pop up are not their fault, but I do think that instead of looking taking advantage of "loopholes" that the bettors should spend their time helping make the casino operate better vs taking their money. This user may have a legit complaint but they're all tainted due to the number of complaints. He should realize that casinos all share information.

No
The smaller sportsbooks limit winners much faster because they are generally risk-averse and a lower volume of bets makes it easier to spot long-term winners.

Having words exchanged with different casino owners and casino representative, I realized for them this community is just another advertising platform like many other platforms. The community and the bitcoin is attached closely to our daily life but for them bitcoin community is an experiment, if advertising works then they continue but when they find difficulties they focus on other platforms where they get easy return of investment.

There are many things about sportsbook and casino that I do not think fair but at the same time they are business institute, they run by their terms. When big companies find a user is trying to take advantages from them, they starts limiting the users. For that reason it's impossible to continue such betting [taking advantage, group betting, arbitrage betting] with big sportsbook but with small sportsbook I think a professional gambler can take the opportunity easily.

I have gone through the profile of GekkeBelg and came to know the user is using the account as well as the forum to get benefits by creating scam accusations. When the person creates one accusation or two then that is okay but repeated for all (many reputed gambling sites) can't be perfect. And I think the user doing that intentionally. There is something wrong with the gambling activity of a person. I can't trust any scam accusation of this person as well.

First, let me start by saying I'm not much into betting, and especially not into sports betting. To me, it always looked far too arbitrary as for which rules apply.

Why would that be a problem? If a casino offers favourable bets, what's wrong with using them?

I was thinking the same thing.

On the other hand:
This really sounds like someone who should stop gambling.

Just find a Job .
You went throught this and showed only one half wich is the casinos just to keep earning from the signature and you worrying about losing this income ? and make it seems like everyone complaing is lying ?  haha
yes just find a job lady .

It's hard to make proper judgement if there is limited information shared by the accused.
Maybe what the sportsbook representatives can do is to try to use independent arbitrators of their choice to solve such disputes if they can not share sensitive information with the community.

A user having over half a dozen scam accusations against different casinos in just that short period of time definitely raises some flags. You can't be that unlucky, even if you are a serial gambler.

I see. Thank you for this release of your investigation. I hope the outcome of this thread can be used to determine the flag he raised on Coins.Game as well as the verdict of the accusation.

I'll try to notify GekkeBelg through PM, see what he's gonna say about this findings.

I've seen this happen before around here.  Folks seem quick to cry scam when things go south, even if it's just a run of bad luck.  And when it's the same person catching flak over and over, it does get suspicious and  hard to believe someone could keep running into bad luck, especially when it seems so systematic. Usually, there's more to the story.

Anyway, nice job double checking things instead of just believing the accusation.  We need more of that.

You don't understand sports betting.

There's nothing wrong with any of these things. Every respected sportsbook pays winning customers. It doesn't matter if GekkeBelg did steamchase or used oddscreen like Spankodds. The whole point of being a sports bettor is to take advantage of the odds, it's literally the only way you can win.

By the way, every normal(non-crypto) sportsbook would limit his max bet and then pay him out. That's the industry standard.
Running a sportsbook is not supposed to be a risk-free business, sportsbooks already have a massive house edge(juice) in their favor.

You can follow the whole post from the above quote to know the link of the topic.

tl;dr;
My bad. I legged behind. Out of 6 sportsbook, I got response from 3 and all have a common complain which is GekkeBelg has connection with group betters. The group targets sportsbook which has less limitations and takes advantages of the odds.

When I was communicating with those sportsbook, I tried to keep myself neutral and did not give any hint to any of these sportsbook [because my goal was to hear from them first without giving any hint or influence so that I can make a conclusion based on their responses]. In their responses they had many explanations, some were logical and some were not but just the excuses of the usual sportsbook terms and conditions. However, unfortunately for GekkeBelg their response were somehow the same. Some of them were even directly blaming the community for judging a case without knowing the inner information. 

For example, a part of the response from one sportsbook

A part from another sportsbook

Another sportsbook

In summary, judging by the responses I received from the sportsbook, I believe the user GekkeBelg is foul-playing and he knows how to attack and raise voice for him by others in the bitcointalk community.

If anyone look at his accusation history [the topics he created], they will see he is following a template when he creates the accusations. The template covers all aspects to make an accusation believable. He knows very well that serious sportsbook will not share information because sharing the private information will get them in trouble. So it become easy for him to create pressure and eventually the sportsbook decides to pay him. Because of the bitter experience, sportsbook lose interest from the community and decides to leave forever. They cut off the advertising they had in the forum and in some cases they even abandoned their announcement thread.

To conclude, I strongly believe users like GekkeBelg is using the community as their shield, they are taking advantages of good forum members who are always trying to help bitcointalk users. As a result, many crypto projects are deciding to leave the community and the community is losing business such as earning from signature campaign and special promotions exclusively for bitcointalk users.

From today, I will personally ignore any scam accusations from the user GekkeBelg.

@holydarkness