Topic: This is why Bitcoinica users must wait in line for withdrawals (Read 5508 times)

As Holliday mentioned, it depends on the state.  The only federal laws are minimum age or 18 and 21 for *purchase* of a  long gun or handgun respectively *from an FFL*.  There are different (state) laws regarding private sales, gifts and possesion/owning firearms.

In most common business law around the world, the company is the legal entity, not the person setting it up.  Zhoutong might be under 18, but that doesn't stop the company having directors and shareholders who are over 18.  Also, as an employee (as distinct from the company), they are an agent of the company.  (I am a qualified Chartered Corporate Secretary among other things and deal with this stuff reasonably regularly.)

Minors can buy guns? I wish I would have known that when I was a minor.

In the US all a minor can do is drive a car and buy guns. Strange country they have there...

I'm not trying to discredit you here or cast aspirations on you character, but it's ultimately up to the judicial branch to ensure your eligibility to commit and enforce a contract.  Not the "state" or your registered partner.  And in the US, a minor doesn't have the capacity to get involved in any legal agreement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacity_%28law%29

I do wish you the best of luck, but understand why Mt Gox won't establish an exception to you, even though you may be technically incorporated via some registered agent.

Also, I'm not hiding anything. In Bitcoin community basically we rely on personal trust and reputation a lot. The legal backing is just an extra enforcement. You don't have to trust my company more than myself.

In Delaware, any corporation must have a registered agent. You simply can't incorporate elsewhere other than "a $99 website". Also, all the personal information is held by the registered agent instead of the state office. It's the partner's responsibility to ensure my eligibility to commit and enforce a contract, not the state's.

FWIW, you can search for the corporate status of Xwaylab here:

https://delecorp.delaware.gov/tin/GINameSearch.jsp

It looks like the registration was done via this online corporation factory:

http://www.incorporate.com/business_structures.html

The paperwork is up to date.  With no offense intended to zhaotong, if this corp was just formed by a minor who (as I understand it) is a foreign national on some $99 website, I'd question the actual validity of the corporation itself.  A minor can basically disaffirm any contract, saying they didn't know what they were signing.

MtGox's legal concerns are legitimate.

Mew! Fuck legal!

I am working with FellowTraveler to try to get Open Transactions actually tested. TO me it has looked like what is needed for a long time now, but even just actually trying having a third party pour contracts into its end and try to issue them to a server has exposed some pretty trivial little glitches that just had not really been noticed a lot when one person is doing all the testing the same way on the same architecture with the same "how to do copy and paste" habits (include the linefeed at end of file or not, for example).

Finally we are zeroing in on this kind of "oh was I meant to / not meant to include that whitespace" type of detail in how different people and maybe even different architectures (linefeed? don't you mean carriage-return?) handle minutiae of what exactly is the payload that one is to hash.

I am really hoping that this time around we can get Open Transactions to a useable state quite soon, at which point I would not be surprised to see it used for a new generation of stock/commodity/forex markets/exchanges and gosh knows what else.

Yes ripple has nice concepts, but for some time it has seemed to me that such parts of how ripple works as eventually will maybe get incorporated into Open Transactions; or a using of OPen Transactions to do some of what ripple bank to bank systems wouyld probably like to do/have, has seemed more likely sooner than waiting for ripple itself to become our solution of choice.

-MarkM- (See OT-server alpha testing thread at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/open-transactions-server-assetbondcommoditycryptocoindeedsharestock-exch-53329 )

Join them through Ripple !!!

For example, there can be multiple Bitcoinicas running at the same time and hedge against each other. Each Bitcoinica is a market maker with some extent of centralization, while the network of Bitcoinicas can be decentralized. We can simulate how inter-bank markets work in real world this way.

Generally, Bitcoinicas should trust each other more than any market participant. So this solution is better than OTC.

Well, the fiat money market is more decentralized than bitcoin exchanges.

What we need is a standard for cross exchange arbitrage with regular players being able to participate in an equal way, and a FOSS toolkit to implement it. Forex already does that to some extend and we would be damned if we weren't able to come up with something.

We need a new exchange! However, I don't think any of the existing exchanges is good enough.  Time to make my own!?!?!??

My vote.  Speak with your wallets, everyone understands that language. 

Or a replacement will rise up and take market share away from Gox. The best vote we have is with our economy. Move it elsewhere if they do not adjust.

I think this thread should be bumped.  If enough people get pissed, mtgox might do something.

EVorhees, I really like what you say. Thank you or taking the time to speak your mind so succinctly. I think it's important work.

nicely put, you should teach them a lesson zhou

Well placed or not, Mr. Zhou Tong has built up some credibility in my mind.  A compelling offering to me would be Bitcoin related services with said individual as a principal, and operating in an environment which is outside of the immediate influence of Western financial institutions (and the enforcement organs which they control.)  I personally don't happen to be doing anything which is illegal (as currently defined.)  It's mostly that I don't trust the stability of any of our current monetary systems and am concerned that they will act in desperate and stupid ways.  This could happen in any area, but as a Westerner, I simply wish to to be more diversified.

By the way, if anyone has what it takes to build a killer exchange, email me at [email protected].

I'll invest with capital, code and business straightaway.

The exchange guys don't know how to talk to people. The landscape is broken. A fix is needed.

I was contacted by Jered before, and I expressed interest in partnership. I wanted to accept deposits and withdrawals from TradeHill and hedge at TradeHill. But the last message I received was about waiting for the lead developer to arrive.

MagicalTux is way more responsive than you guys.

Zhou,

At no time have you ever reached out to me or any other TH people to "work with" us.  

Regards,
Adam

Well, to offer a "real margin trading" a "real exchange" would have to do a "real credit check". This is where the zhoutong's genius lies. He offers the fake "credit" for the fake "trades" in the currency of the far away land and not the local currency of where he lives. Thus he incurs no credit check expenses whatsoever.

I remember a quip or joke from some experienced broker long time ago. He was asked why the basic of securities and trading aren't taught in high schools. They really are that simple. His answer was "Oh, no! That would kill the markets! There wouldn't be anyone to take the stupid side of the  smart people's trades."

Some people can learn from other people's mistakes that are recorded in books stored in libraries. Other people need to learn from their own mistakes that are recorder in their own checkbook. Which way is better?

Can't they do the exact same thing you're doing? Offer people margin trading, with automatic hedging versus other (margin) traders on the same exchange? I don't see why it wouldn't work. Am I missing something?

Thanks for the kind suggestion. However, I do believe that Bitcoinica has benefited Mt. Gox in some ways. The average volume/balance ratio of Bitcoinica's account is much higher than average in Mt. Gox. I'm very confident about this because Bitcoinica's trading volume is highly concentrated on large price movements. People are allowed to utilize other people's money to trade at Mt. Gox for the first time.

I don't want to sell to Mt. Gox at the moment, and I believe that they have no interest to buy it either, based on the chat log published by OP.

Also, an exchange as good as Mt. Gox is hard to build. Even though I sometimes don't like their business practices and PR, I'm generally fine with their exchange system. I tried to work with TradeHill, ExchB and Crypto X Change before, but none of them gave me a better impression.

I actually really want to see Mt. Gox's margin trading.

I'm seriously curious about any way to effectively allow margin trading while being an exchange.

Maybe I'm not intelligent enough to come up with a solution, so I want to learn from them if they can really make margin trading facility.

Options are possible for them, but I'm not sure how are they going to liquidate people.

Hey, do not misunderstand me: I am not jugding you. All I'm saying is that, in terms of business, you are in a very uncomfortable position. The only reason why your business exists is that mtgox does not (yet) offer margin trading.

Even if your exchange pays fees to mtgox, the fact is that mtgox would get even more fees if the exchanges that take place at bitcoinica would take place at mtgox. You are litteraly eating in their plate.

If I was in your position, I would try one of the following options:
- sell Bitcoinica to mtgox. It could work, if they want to offer margin trading and have no time to develop it. Perhaps you have tried already.
- diversify into a real exchange, with bank account and deposits.

Thought before. But I want to remain friendly with Mt. Gox. They are pretty good at building exchange infrastructures.

Even if I ignore the volume, Mt. Gox is still the most robust exchange in Bitcoin community. I could have built a better one, but it's simply not worth the effort to grab market share from a natural monopoly.

I think the 17 year old guy wouldn't need to copy as he has proven than he can code web-services better than Mark, who can't even manage his main business(hosting). I would like to see Mt. Gox copying Bitcoinica... And how many holes they would introduce in their website while doing it lol

Our 30-day volume is kept constant at around 500,000 BTC at Mt. Gox. So it's about 1,300 BTC in fees every month for them.

Also, not to forget that Bitcoinica has facilitated the other sides of the trades, which generate extra fees of 2,500 BTC in total. (Assuming the average fee is 0.5%.)

Mt. Gox has made a lot (almost 4,000 BTC per month) from Bitcoinica. This is truth.

they need to transfer bitcoins to mtgox (and thus to pay fees) only when there is a statistically significant change in the positions of all their customers.
However, when trades inside bitcoinica are balanced, they do not need to pay any fees.

Trades inside bitcoinica are significantly higher in volume than what they actually trade with mtgox (at least this is what they claimed a few days after opening).

err, what is your point exactly? that I should have used another verb? fine.

it remains that there is an obvious conflict of interest between mtgox and bitcoinica.
The trades that take place internally at bitcoinica are a loss of revenue for mtgox, and this will become even more obvious when mtgox offers margin trading.
I think that this "partnership" will not end well,

I am all for a diversification away from mtgox, and I think that it is actually happening; see the volume increase at tradehill, intersango.
However, I do not buy the story that bitcoinica is a "partner" of mtgox. They are just eating in mtgox's plate.

Do you know how much Bitcoinica pays in fees? Probably a significant portion of mtgox's income.

They "allow"?

In related news Amazon "allows" me to buy products from them handling all the difficult work of procurement, distribution, payment processing, and claims.

How nice of them.

+1.

Based on history, there is more reason to trust the "illegal loan entity run by a minor" than MtGox themselves. Only thing that worries me is that a lot of bitcoinica's money is in MtGox accounts. If there is such hostility towards bitcoinica, and likely future conflicts of interest, it makes me worried.

In my opinion, the story goes like this.

Mt. Gox User: Mark, please, I want to trade at your site. Please allow me to get a code for your site on Bitcoinica.
Mark: No, I don't want your business, because your funds come from Bitcoinica.

Practically, Mt. Gox shouldn't have a limit on Mt. Gox codes because they are how people transfer money internally to trade. Majority of Bitcoinica users want to withdraw because they want to trade on Mt. Gox.

Also, legality is irrelevant in this context. Bitcoinica can't launder money if majority of its users only use Mt. Gox codes for deposits and withdrawals. (The last "hop" of money laundering must be at Mt. Gox, where withdrawal limit applies.) I have specifically told Mark that no other withdrawal method will be used for bitcoinica_withdraw account.

Bitconica is great,  MtGox should increase withdraw volume.

Monopoly is bad!

Bitcoinica can easily double or triple the volume of an exchange like TradeHill. Everyday the hedging volume at Mt. Gox is 1/4 to 1/3 of their book. I think Mark knows this.

I just have no interest to switch to other exchanges at the moment. But I must say it's silly to think Bitcoinica as a competitor not a partner. When they do, Bitcoinica will really be a significant competitor.

1. Bitcoinica is currently operated by xWaylab Inc., a Delaware corporation.

2. I have submitted by passport for AML. So our main account has a limit increase. However, we have separate accounts for hedging and withdrawals because one has to be protected by Yubikey. The withdrawal account has normal account limits while the hedging account doesn't have.

Each time you do a manual withdrawal, I would have to manually log in to Mt. Gox account using the Yubikey, and withdraw. This works 99% of the time.

I have requested for withdrawal limit increase on the bitcoinica_withdrawal account, but they rejected because both accounts are owned by the same owner, and the only way to do it is to wait for their sub-account feature (with shared withdrawal limits or something).

Now I'm traveling and I don't have Yubikey access at the moment, so Bitcoinica users have to request for manual withdrawal limit resets.

Haters gonna hate.

Bitcoinica is not a competitor to mtgox. They look more like a parasite of mtgox.

They allow people to trade mtgox codes, and they leave all the difficult work (dealing with banks and regulations) to mtgox.

Not everything I say is it's just that I think is funny and a lot of other people think is funny too so I end up saying in between normal things. What's wrong, you got a problem with ?

I can't believe, out of the 100 shitty posts you make per day, you actually said something I agree with.  I believe the countdown on Gox is to release features that Bitcoinica started (well, it's just standard forex stuff anyway).

This is fun to watch and compare with the historical record of the securities exchanges battling bucket shops.

About 100-something year ago the main weapon against bucket shops was to cut off their ticker: ticker literally meant telegraph.

So the bucket shop operators would bribe telegraph company linemen to surreptitiously tap the telegraph lines of some established brokerage.

I wonder what is the next salvo in this battle going to be?

Bitcoinica is not a company. XWaylabs is a company, and it is legal and registered. Bitcoinica is a product of XWaylabs.

I can't help that MtGox is prejudiced against anything other than them that can influence the market. U jelly mtgox?

Speaking of which, watch how fast MtGox copies Bitcoinica and tries to include everything they do.

Yes some of that... but mostly just free people engaging in businesses without asking for permission from clowns with badges. Thank god there are people who just move forward without pleading with the gatekeepers. Heroes all.

Never said that Gox had anything to brag about. Under current banking laws, securities laws, money laundering laws, usury laws and quite possibly anti-racketeering laws in much of the civilized world, including Japan, Mt. Gox is not dancing, but jumping up and down with ankle weights on the razor's edge.

In fact pretty much everything that we do around here with bitcoins is quasi-legal somewhere, from our tax avoiding profit making mining enterprises, to our completely unregulated stock exchange, to the gift card buyers and sellers who transfer funds that are proscribed in certain countries. Toss in our infants terrible Silk Road and WikiLeaks as the early adopter poster children, and you have a wonderful cesspool of shady dealings, slightly mangled laws, and wanna-be gangsters all over the place.

Having Gox put restrictions on Bitcoinica is a lot like a mugger asking you for two pieces of ID to go with the cash he is stealing from you...

In one what universe is Bitcoinica standing any shakier than Mt. Gox when it comes to international cashflow, regulatory compliance, and AML enforcement.

This is a petty attempt at Mt. Gox to undermine a competitor.  Having 99% of the market isn't enough.

What exactly is/might be illegal about it?

zhoutong:
1. Is bitcoinica a corporation?
2. Why hasn't bitcoinica submitted proper corporate documentation to mtgox? (if you have, please say so)

Liquidity problem yes, but it is also cold hard facts. Regardless of how well put together it is, Bitcoinica is dancing on the razor edge of legality and doesn't have a leg to stand on in demanding better service.

this is a real liquidity problem for Bitcoinica users and for Zhoutong. 

Minor.

As in    < 18

Does he mean "minor" or "miner" ?

The whole withdraw limit thing is kinda bogus anyway. Independent of who it is.

That's bold.  zhoutong, step it up man!  Respond!

[23:51] <@MagicalTux> 2. We are mtgox, not bitcoinica
[23:51] heh
[23:51] well, bitcoinica says
[23:51] that you are imposing your withdrawal limits on their account
[23:52] this is causing a great deal of trouble for bitcoinica users
[23:52] <@MagicalTux> inau: bitcoinica is an illegal loan entity run by a minor
[23:52] <@MagicalTux> technically
[23:52] <@MagicalTux> now, if we had proper corporate documentation for bitcoinica we could allow larger withdraw limits
[23:52] i see

There it is, mtgox's official position on bitcoinica.