Thousands of expat Americans renouncing citizenship to avoid new tax laws

jaysabi

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on November 08, 2015, 01:12:01 AM

Quote from: enhu on November 07, 2015, 08:20:44 PM

A lot of them are staying in thailand and philippines. Just close a deal from US expat wanting to buy beach front properties of Mandani Bay in Cebu Philippines.

The income tax rate in Philippines is around 32%. It is close to the rate within the United States. So if someone renounce his citizenship, I am not sure how much he is going to gain in terms of savings. And also, once you renounce your American passport, it will be extremely difficult to get it back at a later point. A Filipino passport is useless for international travel.

Most likely, the majority of the people renouncing are ex-pats who already live overseas and are being double taxed by virtue of being American citizens. There is limited benefit to emigrating to avoid American taxes as the savings are probably negligible and the cost of giving up American citizenship is high, but in instances where someone is already gone, it makes a lot more sense.

Moonpig

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I'm surprised more people aren't moving out of the states. Doesn't really offer much anymore. You don't even get free healthcare at education is very costly. I'd rather live in a country where both are free.

Quote from: enhu on November 07, 2015, 08:20:44 PM

A lot of them are staying in thailand and philippines. Just close a deal from US expat wanting to buy beach front properties of Mandani Bay in Cebu Philippines.

What are the income and capital gains taxes there like or are people just moving there because it's insanely cheap? I wouldn't mind moving to some tax exile place in the future. You can buy citizenship to places like Saint Kitts and Nevis. It comes free if you invest a decent amount in property there which sounds like a win win to me.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: cjmoles on November 08, 2015, 05:48:44 PM

Those who leave the country and renounce citizenship to avoid taxes are those who have the means to do so, but there are many disenfranchised, poor, and under-represented "citizens" who are stuck being subjugated to the system because they do not have the means to leave.

Well.. foreign citizenship is not that cheap. A Dominican or Antiguan passport can cost you at least $400,000. A Maltese or Cypriot passport can cost as much as € 2,500,000. There are cheaper options as well (such as the Latvian citizenship), but they are not that easy (you have to learn the local language for example) and the tax rates are not very much attractive.

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Quote from: gentlemand on November 07, 2015, 10:38:08 AM

I'd love to hear the experiences of those who have thrown in their citizenship. That must be a very strange feeling being just another foreigner in your own land. Maybe there should be a sliding scale of how welcome you are. It probably starts off as a great idea but if you can't get back in to see your old dears croak you may have preferred to swallow the paperwork.

I believe most of the people who do that are over 60, and they haven't been in the US for years, if not decades. They don't feel like Americans anymore. I know that feeling when I'm looking at my passport. I left the country of my birth in 1988. I guess I still have friends back there, but they belong to the past.

kydranel

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Quote from: enhu on November 07, 2015, 08:20:44 PM

A lot of them are staying in thailand and philippines. Just close a deal from US expat wanting to buy beach front properties of Mandani Bay in Cebu Philippines.

Yap, our friend wasn't even aware of this. Hail Obama. woohoo!

Enjorlas

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This may come as a shock to people, but taxes are not necessary for a society. Every government service imaginable (or alternative) can be provided by the free market.

BitcoinBlackjack

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I think the US is the only country (or one of the only countries) that makes you pay taxes even as a NON RESIDENT.
I know of people that have lived abroad for decades and still have to pay some form of tax to the US government. Absolutely ridiculous!

romjpn

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on November 08, 2015, 01:19:36 PM

Quote from: cjmoles on November 08, 2015, 05:56:47 AM

Well, there are quite a few reasons people would want to leave the US and live abroad....but renouncing citizenship because of taxes is one of the least viable reasons.

I don't think so. I know a lot of people who renounced their United States citizenship, and moved to tax heavens such as Antigua-Barbuda, Dominica and St.Kitts-Nevis. Tax considerations are one of the primary reasons why people are renouncing the American citizenship. All the other reasons (politics, individual freedom.etc) are just secondary.

A lot ? Your friends must be quite wealthy Grin

.
I know only one : Roger Ver (Saint Kitts and Nevis).

cjmoles

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Quote from: botany on November 08, 2015, 07:00:23 PM

Quote from: cjmoles on November 08, 2015, 05:48:44 PM

Those who leave the country and renounce citizenship to avoid taxes are those who have the means to do so, but there are many disenfranchised, poor, and under-represented "citizens" who are stuck being subjugated to the system because they do not have the means to leave.

These are people who probably benefit from the taxation system in place. They have social security in place. In other countries, they might be struggling for food and shelter. Tongue

No, these are people being incarcerated, denied equal treatment, and even killed in the streets by those who are paid with tax payer dollars. They are NOT benefitting from the resources of taxation, they are being subjugated by the system.

botany

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Quote from: cjmoles on November 08, 2015, 05:48:44 PM

Those who leave the country and renounce citizenship to avoid taxes are those who have the means to do so, but there are many disenfranchised, poor, and under-represented "citizens" who are stuck being subjugated to the system because they do not have the means to leave.

These are people who probably benefit from the taxation system in place. They have social security in place. In other countries, they might be struggling for food and shelter. Tongue

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on November 08, 2015, 01:19:36 PM

Quote from: cjmoles on November 08, 2015, 05:56:47 AM

Well, there are quite a few reasons people would want to leave the US and live abroad....but renouncing citizenship because of taxes is one of the least viable reasons.

I don't think so. I know a lot of people who renounced their United States citizenship, and moved to tax heavens such as Antigua-Barbuda, Dominica and St.Kitts-Nevis. Tax considerations are one of the primary reasons why people are renouncing the American citizenship. All the other reasons (politics, individual freedom.etc) are just secondary.

Those who leave the country and renounce citizenship to avoid taxes are those who have the means to do so, but there are many disenfranchised, poor, and under-represented "citizens" who are stuck being subjugated to the system because they do not have the means to leave.

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: cjmoles on November 08, 2015, 05:56:47 AM

Well, there are quite a few reasons people would want to leave the US and live abroad....but renouncing citizenship because of taxes is one of the least viable reasons.

I don't think so. I know a lot of people who renounced their United States citizenship, and moved to tax heavens such as Antigua-Barbuda, Dominica and St.Kitts-Nevis. Tax considerations are one of the primary reasons why people are renouncing the American citizenship. All the other reasons (politics, individual freedom.etc) are just secondary.

cjmoles

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Well, there are quite a few reasons people would want to leave the US and live abroad....but renouncing citizenship because of taxes is one of the least viable reasons. How about leaving and renouncing citizenship because of inequality (citizens without citizenship)....or leaving to avoid the mass incarceration project....If one doesn't live in the US....why keep the rights of citizenship anyway?

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: enhu on November 07, 2015, 08:20:44 PM

A lot of them are staying in thailand and philippines. Just close a deal from US expat wanting to buy beach front properties of Mandani Bay in Cebu Philippines.

The income tax rate in Philippines is around 32%. It is close to the rate within the United States. So if someone renounce his citizenship, I am not sure how much he is going to gain in terms of savings. And also, once you renounce your American passport, it will be extremely difficult to get it back at a later point. A Filipino passport is useless for international travel.

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Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 07:36:44 AM

Quote from: botany on November 07, 2015, 06:39:11 AM

Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 05:56:50 AM

i'm not saying that no one should pay taxes, i'm saying that i want to pay for what i use, not for what others use, why i should pay for the privileges of the other?

In economics, there is a term called "public good", which has to be paid for through taxes or collections from individuals, whether they use the good or not. Consider a street with ten houses with a streetlight. A particular user (say X) might claim that he does not want to pay for the streetlight because he does not use it. But it is impossible to deny him the benefit of the streetlight, even if he does not pay for it. Moreover, because X benefits from the streetlight does not mean that the remaining users are negatively impacted in any way (the resource does not decrease because X uses it).

These "public goods" have to be financed through taxes; there is no other way.

well that is wrong for me, this is not fair at all, and it is the reason why i hate taxes, and because of this i will make everything in my power to avoid paying tax as much as possible, on every little things

your example is more biased because streetlight are everywhere(so i actually need them too), but there are things that i'm not using at all anymore, like bus in the city, or subway like i said, i'm travelling only with my bicycle

so why i should pay for something that i'll never use? no sense, if they don't want to fix this, i'm going to evade in some way, i don't care

You have to pay for public goods because public goods are things a society needs to be functional and stable (i.e. necessary), and thus their cost must be borne by all people in the society. Even if you don't directly use public transportation, the economic benefits of having a public transit system indirectly benefits you because public transit is beneficial to the economy you participate in, and you reap economic benefits from participating in a more robust economy. Everyone indirectly benefits from public goods, so society has decided it is fair for all people to split the cost of the public goods.

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A lot of them are staying in thailand and philippines. Just close a deal from US expat wanting to buy beach front properties of Mandani Bay in Cebu Philippines.

botany

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Quote from: gentlemand on November 07, 2015, 10:38:08 AM

I'd love to hear the experiences of those who have thrown in their citizenship. That must be a very strange feeling being just another foreigner in your own land. Maybe there should be a sliding scale of how welcome you are. It probably starts off as a great idea but if you can't get back in to see your old dears croak you may have preferred to swallow the paperwork.

I don't think these people remain in the US. If you are a US citizen and work abroad, FATCA rules still apply to you. But if you renounce your citizenship, then they don't. This is the reason why Americans staying abroad think it makes sense for them to renounce their citizenship.

oblivi

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Now we only need them to learn Bitcoin and store their wealth there before US collapses and banks all over the place start bailing out money from people's hard earned savings.

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I'd love to hear the experiences of those who have thrown in their citizenship. That must be a very strange feeling being just another foreigner in your own land. Maybe there should be a sliding scale of how welcome you are. It probably starts off as a great idea but if you can't get back in to see your old dears croak you may have preferred to swallow the paperwork.

acquafredda

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Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 07:36:44 AM

Quote from: botany on November 07, 2015, 06:39:11 AM

Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 05:56:50 AM

i'm not saying that no one should pay taxes, i'm saying that i want to pay for what i use, not for what others use, why i should pay for the privileges of the other?

In economics, there is a term called "public good", which has to be paid for through taxes or collections from individuals, whether they use the good or not. Consider a street with ten houses with a streetlight. A particular user (say X) might claim that he does not want to pay for the streetlight because he does not use it. But it is impossible to deny him the benefit of the streetlight, even if he does not pay for it. Moreover, because X benefits from the streetlight does not mean that the remaining users are negatively impacted in any way (the resource does not decrease because X uses it).

These "public goods" have to be financed through taxes; there is no other way.

so why i should pay for something that i'll never use? no sense, if they don't want to fix this, i'm going to evade in some way, i don't care

What you are saying makes no sense at all! Do you know how much it will cost you to pay taxes on "what you use basis"?
You should then pay for the roads you drive on, the hospitals you go in and so on.

I think you are only trolling. I can't really think this way.

You say you don't care but I think you use a lot of what people pay in taxes.

Amph

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Quote from: botany on November 07, 2015, 06:39:11 AM

Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 05:56:50 AM

i'm not saying that no one should pay taxes, i'm saying that i want to pay for what i use, not for what others use, why i should pay for the privileges of the other?

In economics, there is a term called "public good", which has to be paid for through taxes or collections from individuals, whether they use the good or not. Consider a street with ten houses with a streetlight. A particular user (say X) might claim that he does not want to pay for the streetlight because he does not use it. But it is impossible to deny him the benefit of the streetlight, even if he does not pay for it. Moreover, because X benefits from the streetlight does not mean that the remaining users are negatively impacted in any way (the resource does not decrease because X uses it).

These "public goods" have to be financed through taxes; there is no other way.

well that is wrong for me, this is not fair at all, and it is the reason why i hate taxes, and because of this i will make everything in my power to avoid paying tax as much as possible, on every little things

your example is more biased because streetlight are everywhere(so i actually need them too), but there are things that i'm not using at all anymore, like bus in the city, or subway like i said, i'm travelling only with my bicycle

so why i should pay for something that i'll never use? no sense, if they don't want to fix this, i'm going to evade in some way, i don't care

botany

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Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 05:56:50 AM

i'm not saying that no one should pay taxes, i'm saying that i want to pay for what i use, not for what others use, why i should pay for the privileges of the other?

In economics, there is a term called "public good", which has to be paid for through taxes or collections from individuals, whether they use the good or not. Consider a street with ten houses with a streetlight. A particular user (say X) might claim that he does not want to pay for the streetlight because he does not use it. But it is impossible to deny him the benefit of the streetlight, even if he does not pay for it. Moreover, because X benefits from the streetlight does not mean that the remaining users are negatively impacted in any way (the resource does not decrease because X uses it).

These "public goods" have to be financed through taxes; there is no other way.

Amph

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Quote from: pitham1 on November 07, 2015, 03:34:47 AM

Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 03:19:10 AM

well no one want to pay taxes, because they are a bit like scam in my view, we are paying for something that maybe we will not utilize in our entire life

for example it can be that the taxes you pay are going to contribute to the build of a subway that is miles ahead from your location, how this is useful to you? it is not, it's a legalized scam...

If nobody paid taxes, you do realize how society would look like right?
And a person who pays no tax (cause of low income) has as much right over your hypothetical subway as billionaires who pay a lot in taxes.
The taxes you pay are used to pay salaries of cops who make sure your home is safe, of the army which makes sure your country is safe.

i'm not saying that no one should pay taxes, i'm saying that i want to pay for what i use, not for what others use, why i should pay for the privileges of the other?

Mickeyb

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Move On !!!!!!

This is the only way to keep in check this sinking ship. When there is no money in the country and when your debt is growing constantly the only way is to take from the ordinary people.

The only thing is, how long will people give? How long until they don't go crazy and say enough is enough? Governments are playing a dangerous game here but I guess this is the only game that they got left.

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Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 03:19:10 AM

well no one want to pay taxes, because they are a bit like scam in my view, we are paying for something that maybe we will not utilize in our entire life

for example it can be that the taxes you pay are going to contribute to the build of a subway that is miles ahead from your location, how this is useful to you? it is not, it's a legalized scam...

Where do you live? Have you ever been to an Hospital? Who do you think pays most of the salary to those people? And who pays the infrastructure, buildings, cars......?

Taxes are scam, as you say, when you pay too high and you have have nothing or very little in return. But when the system works a bit you'll be glad of paying taxes when you're going to use, for example, the healthcare system.

pitham1

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Quote from: Amph on November 07, 2015, 03:19:10 AM

well no one want to pay taxes, because they are a bit like scam in my view, we are paying for something that maybe we will not utilize in our entire life

for example it can be that the taxes you pay are going to contribute to the build of a subway that is miles ahead from your location, how this is useful to you? it is not, it's a legalized scam...

If nobody paid taxes, you do realize how society would look like right?
And a person who pays no tax (cause of low income) has as much right over your hypothetical subway as billionaires who pay a lot in taxes.
The taxes you pay are used to pay salaries of cops who make sure your home is safe, of the army which makes sure your country is safe.

Amph

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well no one want to pay taxes, because they are a bit like scam in my view, we are paying for something that maybe we will not utilize in our entire life

for example it can be that the taxes you pay are going to contribute to the build of a subway that is miles ahead from your location, how this is useful to you? it is not, it's a legalized scam...

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Quote from: Cereberus on November 06, 2015, 11:58:52 PM

Where do the majority of these us citizens migrating to? I would think thy would be found out if they are still close like mexico or the bahamas.

Found out? They are renouncing their citizenship. Legally.
Then they just obtain the citizenship of another country and continue with their lives.

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Quote from: freedomno1 on November 07, 2015, 12:29:52 AM

It makes sense if the US government is not giving you any benefits while your living outside of it's country besides a Passport, why pay taxes for services you are not going to use.
As long as the passport is good may as well just become a citizen of the country you emigrate too any pay their taxes not get double dipped on.

It is based on the rights to use. If you are American citizen, you rights to use the service any time later. You are also protected by the American Military all over the world.

Possum577

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Loose lips sink sigs!

This isn't "new" news, but it is important and interesting.

The US tax laws penalize citizens for working outside the US and doesn't offer much greater benefit in terms of services by way of that citizenship or taxes paid than can be found by other countries. I think the real penalty comes at the higher income levels anyway.

Any articles out there about people regretting renouncing their US citizenship?

freedomno1

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Learning the troll avoidance button :)

It makes sense if the US government is not giving you any benefits while your living outside of it's country besides a Passport, why pay taxes for services you are not going to use.
As long as the passport is good may as well just become a citizen of the country you emigrate too any pay their taxes not get double dipped on.

Cereberus

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Where do the majority of these us citizens migrating to? I would think thy would be found out if they are still close like mexico or the bahamas.

pattu1

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Individuals are just following what companies have been doing for ages now.
Reverse Mergers were big tax-saving instruments some time ago.

countryfree

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Yes, I remember reading an article on that subject in a Swiss newspaper. I also remember they gave the number of 1200 people. They were Swiss-American people, they're only Swiss now. I understand those people very well. An American passport is worth money for sure, but why pay for it if you have no plan to ever go back there.

I think Boris Johnson still have an American passport.

RustyNomad

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Guess I would be doing the same if I had US citizenship but lived outside the US.

The problem with the US tax system is that it taxes their citizens based on the fact that they are citizens and not based on residency. If it was based on residency then you would have no problem if you were out of the country for 6 or more months as no taxes would then be payable back in the US.

Quote

A good number of overseas banks are now withdrawing existing banking services from US expats and refusing to take on new accounts due to the demands of FATCA reporting.

This seems to be the trend. Already plenty of brokerages that no longer take on US citizens and this can also be seen in the bitcoin ecosystem.

edward222

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Credit to: Tax News : Thousands of expat Americans renouncing citizenship to avoid new tax laws

Quote

As the start of FATCA looms, Americans living permanently overseas are rushing to renounce their US citizenship.
The IRS’s five-year campaign to uncover undeclared, taxable assets held by US expats is having an unexpected result,
as many middle-income Americans living abroad are deciding to hand in their citizenships. Those who renounce are due for unpaid
taxes in the two previous years, but most are more concerned about the effects of drastically rising taxation on themselves and their
families in the future.
Immigration law attorneys believe the increase in numbers of renouncees is being caused by anticipated future changes as well as
the problems of banking overseas once FATCA kicks in. A good number of overseas banks are now withdrawing existing banking services
from US expats and refusing to take on new accounts due to the demands of FATCA reporting.

Ow... The people are getting wiser Grin

Topic: Thousands of expat Americans renouncing citizenship to avoid new tax laws (Read 2212 times)