Topic: Thread re opened due to buyer accusing me of shipping an empty package. (Read 1906 times)

yes, most of use know he has been moving

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thanks for the laugh

a good thread after so long

I have not taken the time to read all the previous replies, but would just like to state for the record that I have traded with TMAN to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, and not once have I ever encountered a problem. I do not see TMAN trashing his reputation for a Kialara Bar worth a couple of hundred bucks, and I fully trust him to stick to what he agrees to.

If this package did indeed arrive empty, then it was stolen during transit. That's my personal take on this.

Went through the entire thread, just for teh lulz. Topic title attracted me.

So, you're getting a package which supposedly weights 1/4 of a KG, 250g.
You get an empty envelope and you can't tell the difference from empty to 250g of weight?

You're either a scammer, or a very stupid scammer.
Paint this guy in red before someone falls for his BS.

I knew it was there.. AWB = air way bill, that big fucking sticker on the front of the package, I referenced it enough times in the thread  Your story had holes and the envelope had holes, your hand was trying to cover one on the bottom of picture 4. I imagine you have spent some time trying to fanny up the packaging.

Now please stop the nonsense

Come on guys - it was not an attempted scam.  I didn't notice the weight on the package.  I am not trying to perpetrate some scam for $200 bucks.   Seller didn't notice the weight in the picture for hours either. 

And let me ask you: if you buy something using bitcoin and you get an empty envelope, which do YOU think was more likely - that the seller jobbed you or that the package was mysteriously stolen.  I certainly would think it's the seller.  Turned out I was wrong.

I'll accept stupid, but not scammer. 

In before account goes quiet again... scammers gonna scam??  Your attempt failed no free kialara for you....

Man I'm going to give you a negative rating for this. Makes no sense at all.

A tip for the next time you try to scam someone: Don't. You do not possess the needed amount of brain cells to pull it off.

You're right, it does say that....  I guess if that is accurate then it must have weighed that much when shipped....

I feel pretty stupid for not having realized that it would say the weight on there.  I don't see a way for that to have been faked so...

The envelope was empty and sealed when, and yet weighed over 1/2 pound when shipped.  Conclusion: someone stole it somewhere along the way and resealed it after.

My apologies, TMAN.  You acted in a good faith.  You did nothing wrong. 

Sorry also for the thread and the time spent analyzing. 

I know for a fact that TMAN in fact has been emigrating.

Shipping weight was 0.25kg which works out to 8.8oz shipping weight, the image was still cached on my system from when I saw the label issue.

So everyone is believing that TMAN just happens to emigrating and his computer is in storage right now? 

I don't know what else to say.   He's got the BTC and I've got no Kialara.  I guess I am screwed.

I accept responsibility for not having surged into action the instant I realized I had been shipped an empty worthless envelope, but I doubt it would have mattered.

I guess all's fair in the wild, wild Bitcoin west. 

I'm getting bored of this shit now. It's nearly midnight here.... I'll give you a clue... look at the pictures you PM,d me

There is one that I had to remove from this thread......

Most of us skip this stuff (me included) but never ever let the postman leave before you check inside of the package, especially if what you are waiting for is a valuable item. When you sign the paper after you receive the item, there isn't much you can do later.

I know it is a pain in the ass but we need to do it to protect ourselves. I don't know the seller, he may forgot to put it inside the package (his trust rating says this is unilkely) or your item is stolen. (likely)

That looks like the plastic bag that's taped onto the package that the customs declaration thing comes in? It would be open if there were duty to be paid

Edit to add: pic 1 looks like the front and there is no plastic bag customs form thing. We need a picture of the back of packaging which is where this would have been I believe.

why are you ignoring the fact that the picture you sent me showed a slit in the package? After a bad experience I ensure everything I sent is extremely well packaged with tape over every edge of the envelope/jiffy. The picture though a pretty bad one showed the inside of the envelope where it had been split next to the brown tape.

You stated that you took the picture before you opened the package.....

He says that he can't file an insurance claim 13 days after the item was signed on delivery (or that it would be foolish). You're supposed to report these things right away, and not wait 2 weeks FYI.

I don't understand this. Are you saying TNT erases its records after 13 days?  That sound pretty far fetched to me. 

Please post the image of the receipt with the weight, or message it to me directly if it shows personal address, etc.  If it's legit then I will drop my complaint.  I am not lying about the envelope being sealed and empty, but if I see a receipt showing that there was an actual weighted item shipped to me, then I will have to be satisfied that someone swiped the item along the way.

If the accuser (in this case shadallion) is unable to provide adequate evidence for his accusation, then I'd dismiss it. In this particular case:
1) You (TMAN) can provide reasonable evidence that the package had the estimate weight (which is reasonable evidence that the package contained something, i.e. at least was not empty).
2) The buyer signing on delivery. One would expect to feel the difference between an empty package and one containing a metal bar. He/she could even go as far as rejecting the package all together. Them failing to report this in time, in combination with 1) (once provided) would probably make me dismiss it all together unless new evidence comes up.

It is not possible for both of these to be true at the same time:
1) The package having a certain weight when it was sent by TMAN.
2) The package being untampered.

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One of them must be false. Maybe the apartment manager stole it?

I live in an apartment complex and the package was received by the apartment manager.  By the time I had it in hand, the delivery company was long gone.  I was handed this package.

Travel was part of the personal business - what of it?  It's not "inconsistent" it's simply fleshing out what I messaged the seller directly.  Do you immediately tell of your personal backstory in every circumstance?  As the issue has escalated to a broader audience, I chose to frame it differently.

TMAN, in answer to why you would do this over such a petty sum, I honestly don't know. Again, all I know is that when I got the envelope it was sealed and yet empty. 

I am wondering why if it was insured it didn't come to me personally - why was a third-party (my apartment manager) allowed to sign for it?  I paid for insurance with the shipping so isn't the onus on you to send it to me with directions that it actually be received and signed by me?

Thanks for the objective point of view. As an escrow yourself if this was a deal you held the funds for, how would you deal with t?

Have you ever made a claim against a courier? 1st thing they ask... was the package signed for as damaged.

If a courier handed me a package and it was paper weight and I was expecting a metal bar I would refuse to sign for it and RTS.. end of.. nothing else to say here

Objective assessment; there were a few mistakes with this transaction:
1) Tman failed to notice that this account woke up from a long period inactivity which makes it probable that it is no longer in the possession of the original owner.
2) Escrow was not used for a trade with an unknown member (even though that may not have necessarily prevented anything if a party is lying).
3) The story of the random member is already starting to become inconsistent and the time-delay makes this very suspicious.
4) Tman did not enact adequate measures in order to avoid situations like these (*).

* - This statement may be false depending on what is shown with this:

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It may be possible that it was indeed stolen in transit, even though this is very unlikely. Proving that it was indeed stolen is rather non-trivial.

Id slow it on calling the buyer a liar and such as well. It could be the scenario that the seller did ship it and that it were stolen in transit somehow. In that case it falls on the buyer to submit a claim to TNT for insurance.

Travelling isn't far fetched either, I work a two week on, one week off schedule and am often away. My more expensive items I have shipped somewhere where I know they'll be signed for for me.. sometimes if a coin gets held up in customs and arrives my first day gone it could be two weeks before I open it. Mind you I receive pictures and get the person to open it for me so I can release escrow promptly.

All I'm saying here is both buyer and seller could be telling the truth. It would be nice to hear from an escrow such as minerjones / ognasty / blazed as to how they would approach this situation if escrow were used. I believe emotion plays a lot with some of the replies here, these escrow services play a complete unbiased opinion when it comes down to proof and ultimate decision.

Always use escrow kids. No matter how much trust you have in a seller. You may trust the seller but you can't trust the shipping company to act in good faith.

Thanks for the kind words guys. But this isn't about rep, this is about outing people who try to scam. I have the proof that backs up me sending the item.. we need to flush out scammers who try to pull a fast one as the next seller may be caught out not having the full evidence needed.

I believe I also have pictures of the packaging stages but I cannot be 100% sure as this was a few weeks ago before I emigrated. I will check tomorrow when I have unboxed the pc that has my pictures backed up on.

Lol. 


Same here though.  I have traded back and forth with Tman for a sum likely greater than 10 BTC.  This included an envelope with 2 kialara Labyrinths I won in an auction such as this one.  The envelope arrived safe and with the 2 kialara's I ordered.  I highly doubt Tman would scam anyone at all, let alone for such a small amount of BTC. 

Thanks squall. That made me laugh

sorry to hear this.

to everyone, I have traded thousands of GPB to TMAN in the past, I would trust him to drive my mum to the hospital whilst intoxicated!

Yea I have the AWB... but I wanted the community to comment before I posted it as I know the buyer is lying.

If there is proof of a shipping weight associated with the package I would advise sharing that.  It should be 4oz or more and an empty package will be 3oz or less.

Doubtful that'll come to a satisfying resolution for anyone.  I get the feeling someone isn't telling the truth here, and somehow I don't think it's TMAN.  Could be wrong,  and I don't want to start pointing fingers because it's just a hunch.  Too bad there doesn't seem to be a way of proving what went wrong.  TMAN doesn't have a history of scamming and this doesn't seem like it would be exactly a lucrative enoughdeal to start scamming with, were he even inclined to do so.

I can't as it is 2 weeks after it was signed for. TNT will laugh at me.. especially as the package was not signed for as damaged or open or empty.. really who would open a Jiffy bag that feels empty when you are expecting a metal bar??? Even more so why wait 2 weeks??

In PM he mentions traveling yet above no mention of that being the cause of the delay

If insurance was paid for file a claim with the shipping agent and let them sort it out? I do have a hard time believing TMAN would risk his hard earned trust rating over a few hundred dollars. No offense but that is the way I see it.

I took a video when I was opening a package from ironmarvel (I think) I paid about 0.47 btc or so in December. So I don't see how taking pictures of it before you open it is that far fetched. But there should be a shipping info with the weight to prove the auction winner is lying

No mention of the travelling?? The picture you sent is not perfect but I can see that the package was sliced open. Yet when you  sent me the PM you stated that the picture was taken before you opened the package..

I have shipped items worth more than 30x this package and not had my integrity questioned. I own one of the top 5 largest collections of kialara's in the world. Why would I scam someone over such a petty amount?

I am the buyer in this situation.  

I sent the bitcoin for the Kialara after some positive exchanges with TMAN regarding this and other pieces.  He has a good trust score and was very responsive and I got a good vibe, and so I (lazily perhaps) opted to just send him the BTC for the item when I won, with no escrow.

All seemed to be going well and he provided a tracking number, and I paid to have it insured.

When I got the package, it was obviously empty AND SEALED.   Seller is saying that it is "sliced open" but it was not.  Maybe he's seeing some sort of fold in the tape from the picture, but it was literally just a sealed, empty envelope.

As soon as I picked it up my immediate thought was "dammit, I should have escrowed."  

Second thought:  "I know I got a real steal of a price on that auction, I guess he wasn't inclined to part with it for such a low price."

Third thought was:  "how can I ever "prove" that in fact it was an empty envelope when he first sent it?  When I contact the seller, he'll just say that it was stolen by some unknown person somewhere along the line.   He'll have proof that he sent the envelope and it will be his word against mine as to whether the item was ever actually in there or not.  He cleverly did this in a way that makes it almost impossible for me to get my BTC back."

Frankly, I despaired and figured I was just out the BTC, caveat emptor.  It wasn't a ton of money so I wasn't devastated, and my inclination was to just learn my lesson and move on.   I was also very busy with personal life issues, so I put it on the backburner  

As I kept thinking about it, I figured it was at least worth reaching out TMAN to ask why he would feel the need to stiff me.   So I messaged him yesterday about it.

He denied it and asked for pictures, which I sent.  He claimed that the pictures show that the envelope was sliced, but it was not.  It was a sealed envelope.  Unless someone was thoughtful enough to re-tape it shut after robbing it, the item just wasn't in there in the first place.

I will say that I am heartened that the seller volunteered to reopen this thread and basically throw this out to the community for judgement.  That shows a certain amount of good-will and I am hopeful that he will make this right.  

All I know is that I sent the BTC for the Kialara and received an empty, sealed envelope in return.  Just because I delayed in messaging him about it and didn't immediately start rampaging and complaining and down-voting him doesn't change that fact.  Also, just because I have been quiet on the forum for three years doesn't make me a liar either.  I got burned hard on the Activeminer scam and lost a small fortune, so I haven't been on here much at all since then.

Thank you

You're welcome, glad I could point it out and you were able to correct it quickly.  

seems provably true/false with the weight of package.(thank god Kialara's weigh as much as they do). Im not sure if it is the same in the UK as it is in Canada but when i send a parcel or package they weigh it and that adds to the cost of me sending the package. it should be included somewhere on the shipping receipt. (buyer did not claim anything inside as to fake the weight of the package, empty vs a kialara would be easily proven)

Looking at this from an escrow point of view, the proof needs to be given from both sides to the best of their ability to win any dispute. This proof does not include things such as community favorites or activity on a forum, its things such as receipts/pictures.

cheers digi - sorry didn't double check that..

This is a very strange case but the blame should clearly not land on you for some of these reasons:

1. Why did the user Sign for picking up the package 2 weeks ago and wait until yesterday/today to contact you.
2. Why did the user take the pictures before opening just to realize that it was empty? (Seems a bit suspicious)
3. If the reason behind #2 is that he thought the package was empty then why not contact you with the package intact and perhaps send it back, intact?
4. Why would you TMAN need to send one empty package to gain a few hundred dollars? I've seen you make deals for several thousands of dollars and both parties involved have always walked away happy.
5. This user has clearly not been involved too much considering the 3 year gap between posts as you mentioned. This does not bring a lot of trust since the account could have been purchased just to do something like this.

To me this is a pretty open and shut case and the user can try somewhere else.

I'd recommend editing or removing the photo that essentially doxes the customer.  My 2 cents so far after quickly reviewing the post. 

I have re opened this thread as the winner of this auction contacted me last night by PM stating..

"I assume you know this, but your package was empty.  Is it really worth stiffing people and having credibility ruined for a couple hundred bucks?"

this is a preposterous statement as this item was signed for 2 weeks ago. TNT reference 341727105

I asked for pictures and the buyer sent the below links, please zoom in on the 2nd picture and see how the edge has been carefully sliced open.

http://imgur.com/T5VV4qL

http://imgur.com/GxMu2KB

http://imgur.com/ - Edit - unintentional Doxing!!

http://imgur.com/KM9pWsC

I commented that it has been sliced and the user replied with the below.

"Where are you seeing that it was sliced down the side?   After I took the pics I cut it open.

It was just an empty envelope that was sealed with tape around all edges.  

I have been traveling and really I considered just not doing anything because I don't have much recourse here.  I didn't escrow and I just had to hope the object would be shipped in good faith.

It seems unlikely someone would cleverly open the package and reseal it, not even knowing what it was in it, or probably even recognize it for what it was when they did open it.

Can you send the evidence of the weighed package? "

so I stated that the edge had been sliced and stated that I would re open this thread and received the below answer.

" It was sealed when I took the picture.  It's not sliced.   There was no indication that the envelope had been opened up and the Kialara removed.  It just appeared to be a sealed, empty package.

Please do open up the thread. "

please also check the users post history and notice the nearly 3 year gap until they bid on my auction.

for now I wont add any more - I would like the communities input before I go any further.

thanks all - I welcome some comments.

 

that's what happens in an auction...

I wont be putting any more up for auction @ that price - they will be going away for a few years now..

Yeah, pretty sure I paid that much for just the opportunity to get one.

wow thats cheap for lab

Congrats Shadallion

Wow super cheap...

You won dude. PM incoming

Done?

0.12

0.11

0.10 BTC

'
they sent me a PM asking what discontinued means... I explained and haven't heard back

What happened to that 0.1 bid that came in from Zoel?

High Bid - Ends this evening..

really thought this would of at least got to retail price as they arent available from Max currently.

0.09BTC

High bid guys and girls

Didn't had an idea

thanks for the link

Try http://kialara.com/labyrinth-sales-hold/

That looks amazing man!


He hasn't updated the site as the new site is kialara.com
You will find the bars available there , the labs are no more in stock AFAIK
They are not on list here - http://kialara.com/

I may or may not do this - It wasnt my intention when I purchased this batch, but the business venture I was going to use them for isnt happening now, so a few will either be auctioned or raffled - but lets see where this goes 1st, as if the price isnt healthy enough Ill just keep the rest of the batch.

Knowing Max that mid-april stuff could very well be mid-april next year..

According to Kialara blog these have not been discontinued but sales will reopen mid-April once all current orders have been filled. He is busy with production of the new 'To the moon' series.

If you are talking about a raffle for a handful of Kialara's then yes, that sounds great.
Maybe just raffle off 1 at a time though to keep the ticket price down and give everyone more of a chance to win.

That's a nice kialara you got there. I'll go ahead and bid 0.08BTC.

.03

0.02BTC

0.01

0BTC

I am auctioning #633 silver balls -  These have now been discontinued by max -

based on the price here, I may have the Rafflemaster arrange another Raffle for a handful more
Starts from 0BTC
Min Increment 0.01
Ends 11.59PM NY time Sunday 9th April
No new accounts, any low activity users must contact be prior to bidding, Payment due to me or escrow within 24 hours of auction end.
no sniping, each additional Bid adds 20 mins to the auction.
Price Excludes shipment, this is located with me in the UK.





Good luck all