To what extent are Russians capable of storing their riches in Bitcoin?

wxa7115

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Quote from: nullama on February 28, 2022, 06:23:46 PM

The storage of wealth should have happened long time ago, at least before their currency halved in value.

Today they still have the option to provide goods and services for Bitcoin though.

True, we need to prepare ourselves before the storm comes, because once it does then it is already too late to do anything, those that were smart enough to see that something like this could happen had years to prepare themselves for this event and most likely they are the ones that are benefiting the most, or at least they are the ones that are losing the least.

But anyone hoping to exchange their rubles for any other currency will find out they will not only have to deal with the accumulated losses sustained by the currency already, but they will also need to pay a premium in order to exchange their rubles, after all who is buying rubles at the moment instead of selling them?

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It'll be hard for Russian residents to acquire bitcoin at this point. Their banking system has been disconnected from most parts of the world, and if they were to buy bitcoin they would have to do p2p deals which is hard considering the value of the Ruble going down so hard. They would have to find for workarounds in order to get crypto, but idk if people outside Russia would still like to deal with the said currency.

Quote from: Kakmakr on March 04, 2022, 03:40:19 AM

Putin will never seize the funds from his own citizens, because he needs no rebellion under his own citizens when he is fighting a war against the Ukraine. He can however seize the funds from people that appose him and those who are not willing to fight in this war. Roll Eyes

If worse comes to worst for Putin, he might as well just do that and just threaten the population. People would likely just comply and not risk dying, but history tells us that that is not always the case.

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Putin will never seize the funds from his own citizens, because he needs no rebellion under his own citizens when he is fighting a war against the Ukraine. He can however seize the funds from people that appose him and those who are not willing to fight in this war. Roll Eyes

I think the average citizen will only withdraw their funds from the Banks and then be able to transfer it to some foreign exchange to be able to convert it to Bitcoin. (Using the local exchanges will be stupid, because the government can block those accounts)

I will also not leave the bitcoins on the foreign exchanges, because the Russian hackers will start to target these exchanges. My advice will be to convert the bitcoins and then withdraw it from the exchange and to keep it on a paper wallet or a hardware wallet. (Cold storage)

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I think it takes not only events, but also time. Residents accepting bitcoin as a safe-haven fund requires too many conditions that can be trusted. I think the design of bitcoin is not ready to exclude anyone. Whoever has the opportunity to trust Bitcoin deserves to own Bitcoin.

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I think that for now, selling rubbles for cryptos should be possible (but I don't know that in practice and I can see online that, even if it is, it's harder than it used to be), especially since Russian crypto exchanges are largely in the grey zone (not something official). If I had rubles, I'd go for cryptos right now. If I didn't believe in Bitcoin, I'd go for USDT. Fiat doesn't have the stability people expect it to have when something like what has happened occurs, but stablecoins can still provide some guarantees, compared to ruble. And not all Russian banks are out of SWIFT. In fact, the biggest of them aren't, I believe.

NelfiNovita

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Looks like people in Russia will not collect Bitcoin at a time like this.
Maybe only for people in Russia who will exchange their Bitcoins to fiat currencies because of the very complicated circumstances that they are today. Russian people need fiat money for their daily needs because Russian people can only work in their country. Several countries have already repatriated some Russian residents to their families in Russia, Russian people who work abroad will lose their jobs so this is what makes Russian people sell their Bitcoins to meet their daily needs.

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on March 03, 2022, 11:09:54 AM

Situation is changing very fast, there are rumors that putin plans to turn Russia into a North Korea style dictatorship. If that happens, I don't think crypto will be legal in Russia, despite the most recent legislation.

I don't know how they can ban cryptocurrency. It's unlikely to be North Korea, more likely to be something like China with bans on most of the internet. But banning cryptocurrency is not going to happen here. More than 40 years ago, Russia criminalised speculation in foreign currency and the sale of Western goods. For example, a box of gum could land you in prison for several years. But you could always buy dollars or jeans in the centre of any big city. The same will be true of cryptocurrency.

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Situation is changing very fast, there are rumors that putin plans to turn Russia into a North Korea style dictatorship. If that happens, I don't think crypto will be legal in Russia, despite the most recent legislation.

vickyes

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There are still very few people who know who bought Bitcoin, but it is undeniable that this is an important event that drives the evolution of cryptocurrencies forward.
At least now some people are starting to think about how to effectively hedge funds.

killerfrost

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The flexibility in trading is partly due to the way they look for the right place for the asset. Personally, I'm leaning towards the possibility that sanctions on Russia will change the face of the economy Russia has built. It's really sad that BTC is responding to these issues, but it happened anyway, and hopefully in the future it will be back to normal.

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Quote from: e_abrams on March 01, 2022, 12:44:19 PM

So before the war in Ukraine started Russia reached the decision to recognize BTC as a foreign currency and not a digital asset. Putin has commented that the central bank and the government will be working together to reach a consensus. This is not exactly legalization but not exactly a ban either. Either way, I imagine a lot of Russians stored their money in crypto.

You only refer to the intention in Russia on February 18 to submit to the State Duma a new bill that will regulate cryptocurrency, and for violation of its strict rules, according to this bill, criminal liability will be established. There is much to rejoice. Putin has already promised many things both to his people and in the international arena. And when he didn't fulfill what he promised, he promised again, but in a different way. Therefore, apparently, from the promised people of Russia can only count on criminal liability.
Due to the military invasion of Ukraine, Russia is now losing about $20 billion every day due to sanctions. The seven largest banks in Russia are cut off from SWIFT. 70 percent of assets are blocked abroad. The civilized world closes the sky for Russia, refuses to buy its goods and imposes an embargo on Russian goods. Citizens of Russia now need to think about how to avoid hunger, they will not be able to eat bitcoins, and their ruble is already turning into paper.

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Quote from: Fortify on March 01, 2022, 03:03:16 PM

You came up with the ultimate irony, that there is currently little means for Russians to do this even if they wanted to right now. I'm not sure what Russian cryptocurrency exchanges are active but with Visa and MasterCard now banning their transactions it leaves few methods to fund bitcoin purchases. Besides that, Russians are more used to storing their wealth in dollars or gold in times of crisis - but the exchange rate they'll get right now is much lower than last week. Sadly all Russians are going to have to pay for Putin's murdering rage.

I see no irony here. No matter what wants one to purchase, if his money is locked in a crippled banking system, he cannot do much.
And the window of opportunity - e.g. actual sellers of Bitcoin for the plummeting RUR - may be closing; after a certain level of inflation it may become bad business to sell no matter how big the premium is.
I also don't think that XAU or USD can be bought in "better conditions".

Yes, sadly the Russians pay for this and may do for long time. But it's their own president, their own army invading there. And the polls tell that 50% of the Russians do agree with this war.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 28, 2022, 06:34:21 AM

Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

Since Russia banks are out of SWIFT, Russians will not be able to transfer their rubles to most of the exchanges, hence I think that they don't have much of other choices than finding other individuals inside Russia willing to sell Bitcoin for RUR.

Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

Bitcoin price has quite a history of going up and down. One needs to have been reading and trusting Bitcoin for long term - the past charts show that for minimum 4 years it was usually a good investment.
But right now? No. One may need to access the money "tomorrow". Also, as I said, it won't be easy to find sellers.
Right now Russians would better exchange their fiat in any other currency. But I think that they've already missed that train too...

PS. Keeping the private keys/seed on an USB stick is unsafe. Paper or steel are better, usually kept in multiple places.

You came up with the ultimate irony, that there is currently little means for Russians to do this even if they wanted to right now. I'm not sure what Russian cryptocurrency exchanges are active but with Visa and MasterCard now banning their transactions it leaves few methods to fund bitcoin purchases. Besides that, Russians are more used to storing their wealth in dollars or gold in times of crisis - but the exchange rate they'll get right now is much lower than last week. Sadly all Russians are going to have to pay for Putin's murdering rage.

e_abrams

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So before the war in Ukraine started Russia reached the decision to recognize BTC as a foreign currency and not a digital asset. Putin has commented that the central bank and the government will be working together to reach a consensus. This is not exactly legalization but not exactly a ban either. Either way, I imagine a lot of Russians stored their money in crypto.

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Though SWIFT is out of option I think they will still go for p2p options as it won’t need SWIFT. They can choose from hundreds of wallets available through online platforms. Debit and credit cards are still gonna work in the Russia as it won’t be affected by SWIFT as of now. Apart from this, wallets like payeer, PayPal, AIRTM, and some Chinese apps will surely workout the whole trading thing.

We have actually advanced so perfectly in the payment system that we ourselves created lot of loop holes.

So I don’t think they could really stop transferring the funds into crypto. It’s easy if they think.

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Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

I don't think so, bitcoin is not a solution if war continues, there will be many impacts that will be obtained by the Russian people if the value of the ruble is increasingly worthless, bitcoin is difficult to trade if their internet dies, the best way to make peace between russia and ukraine

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on March 01, 2022, 03:43:01 AM

Don't rule out completely the option that some Russians may need to sell BTC for fiat (RUR, USD, EUR) for their daily spending.

Quote from: ABCbits on March 01, 2022, 04:42:04 AM

While i agree with your logic, i managed to find some BTC seller who accept RUB at HoldHodl[1]. But obviously the rate isn't fair. At time of writing the post, those seller charge 4-30% higher.

[1] https://www.hodlhodl.com/offers?search=1&side=buy&country=RU&include_global=checked&price_currency=RUB

As per above for @NeuroticFish I don't rule out from the start poeple selling BTC for RUB, since pretty obvious poeple have been doing so both in Venezuela and Turkey despite the huge depreciation of the currency but my point was that this is limited, you can't have billions worth of BTC suddenly changing hands and the few with serious connections through bank accounts and exchanges are able to slowly convert fiat to BTC and sell it while jacking up prices (as per your example) bit by bit, till it reaches the point of equilibrium.

Probably less than half of the pump is driven by this but at the same time, I don't exclude breaking 50k in a matter of days, even if it's not real demand and more likely FOMO.

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Quote from: Zlantann on March 01, 2022, 08:07:42 AM

Russians would be willing to store their wealth in any other means, be it gold, Bitcoin, properties or foreign stocks. But anyone acting now is acting a little bit late. This is because the rubles has already lost 30%. But it could be smart one now because as long this invasion continue the currency will still loose more value

Anyone accepting the Russian currency now is venturing into a risky long time investment. He is hoping that someday, maybe after the war the Russian economy will bounce back and its currency would regain value. But selling Bitcoin for the Russian rubles is not a bad investment because Russia would surely bounce back.

This is their options for now because there are limitations toward using their currency outside their country and even if they are on their own country still they can feel their economy starting to fall down due to the increasing sanctions of their own currency.

Now they are into bitcoins but for sure others are now thinking more ways to make their money safe and avoid to get decreased in value due to this incidents.

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Russians would be willing to store their wealth in any other means, be it gold, Bitcoin, properties or foreign stocks. But anyone acting now is acting a little bit late. This is because the rubles has already lost 30%. But it could be smart one now because as long this invasion continue the currency will still loose more value

Anyone accepting the Russian currency now is venturing into a risky long time investment. He is hoping that someday, maybe after the war the Russian economy will bounce back and its currency would regain value. But selling Bitcoin for the Russian rubles is not a bad investment because Russia would surely bounce back.

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Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

Look at the Waves-Token price. The prices has risen by 100% in the last seven days and over 40% today alone. Most of all top 100 coins. Waves has a Russian origin (but is a international project today) and from this origin there is still a good Rouble <-> BTC integration on a cheap, easy to use decentralized exchange. It is clear that many Russians are trying to get their money to safety this way at the moment. Other options, like centralized exchanges, are currently inaccessible for most Russians due to the sanctions and SWIFT limitations.

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Quite capable, but the Russians need to be careful as their government doesn't want them to use Bitcoin. Putin has been wanting them to sell all their mined bitcoin to their central bank, and now more than ever. He even ordered Russian companies to buy rubles (80% of their capital for those handling foreign currencies). You can imagine the panic this has caused, pretty sure its the cause of the sudden bitcoin price surge.

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Quote from: KaliLinux on March 01, 2022, 03:36:31 AM

it is kinda dicey. With the free fall of the Russian Ruble, who will really want to sell their Bitcoin for RUB when others are trying to sell out of the RUB Huh

because that is the currency they are holding to trade with. I think if this has not been done already, regardless of the options they have via these DEXs it will be deficult.

I mean,,, I get it yes if you ask me now I would not sell my Bitcoin for majority of fiat especially my own national one. I believe BTC will always appreciate in price.

But in this case it is different. If you want to escape or run from your country, no emergency transport is accepting BTC. You have to pay in local fiat so I guess this is about the desperate situation nothing about trading anymore.

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Quote from: TheGreatPython on March 01, 2022, 06:55:30 AM

Quote from: fzkto on March 01, 2022, 01:13:01 AM

I don't see any problem in buying bitcoins within Russia. Cryptocurrency exchanges still allow Russian users to make exchanges. The easiest way right now is bestchange, but it's not very profitable. It's easier to buy USDT for rubles and then buy BTC on the exchange.

Profitability can depend on what rate you buy and on what rate you sell, I'm not talking about the rates on the exchanges but I'm talking about the value of the crypto. An exchange can give their own rate or fees to use their service but this can be recovered soon once we earn a profit on our cryptocurrency investments. What is good about bestchange is it's fast, no signup and KYC needed.

Buying usdt and trading it to a crypto can only incur us more fees and it's a little bit hustle. Buying crypto using cash is possible as long as crypto is not restricted in our place and there is nothing strange with this, I don't know why op thinks it strange.

I wanted to say that there is no problem to buy bitcoin in Russia now, even with banks disconnecting from international payment systems. As long as services such as bestchange, where Russian roubles are accepted, are working, any user can make transactions. There are other problems in Russia now, such as the rise in prices of food and electronics. People are afraid to hold on to the rouble. There is a kind of panic.

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Quote from: fzkto on March 01, 2022, 01:13:01 AM

I don't see any problem in buying bitcoins within Russia. Cryptocurrency exchanges still allow Russian users to make exchanges. The easiest way right now is bestchange, but it's not very profitable. It's easier to buy USDT for rubles and then buy BTC on the exchange.

Profitability can depend on what rate you buy and on what rate you sell, I'm not talking about the rates on the exchanges but I'm talking about the value of the crypto. An exchange can give their own rate or fees to use their service but this can be recovered soon once we earn a profit on our cryptocurrency investments. What is good about bestchange is it's fast, no signup and KYC needed.

Buying usdt and trading it to a crypto can only incur us more fees and it's a little bit hustle. Buying crypto using cash is possible as long as crypto is not restricted in our place and there is nothing strange with this, I don't know why op thinks it strange.

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Quote from: pealr12 on March 01, 2022, 04:52:54 AM

Man! that's tough, the question is..... does Putin really care about the sanctions and what effects it will have long term in the Russian economy or he is to egocentric to care?

I'm sure that he does care.. at some extent. The economic problems can get to the point those defending him find out that it's more viable economically to... send him to the thrash of the history than getting the now rather worthless paycheck. I am sure that he realizes that not-so-subtle detail.

Quote from: pealr12 on March 01, 2022, 04:52:54 AM

I agree with binance and kraken, the citizens of Russian should not be punished for the crime of their president, he is too stubborn to listen to any sense of reason, there was no need for this war in the first place, especially fighting a country not as powerful as you in terms of arms and ammunition. it is very sad situation.

The problem is that Binance started to go by what regulators ask from them so they can go fully onto rich countries' markets.
And I would not be surprised to see - sooner or later - somebody starting to point their finger in their direction, leaving them no other choice than freezing accounts.
Also I don't know if they use actual Russian banks for deposits/withdrawals; if they don't (which I expect), the SWIFT blocking has its effects here too, on the fiat side.

While I agree that average Ivan accounts should stay unharmed, these exchanges should watch for accounts that can be related to exactly the sanctioned individuals and companies.

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Quote from: swogerino on March 01, 2022, 04:25:47 AM

Quote from: Bitstar_coin on March 01, 2022, 04:10:44 AM

I was just brainstorming about the depth of the Russian sanctions and how deep it can affect them internally, so i was wondering if the various exchanges with branches in Russia will do the same thing as what is happening with banks and other non-Russian business? i mean like all the exchange who have their Russian version will stop trading because of the sanction!
i did a little search and i saw that there is -

Binance Russia
Kraken Russia
Bittrex Russia
OKCoin Russia
Bybit Russia (^{from coinmarketcap})

Will they stop providing services to the Russian crypto market, because it they do then it will be a huge issue for those who wants to buy btc with their RUB.

For the moment major exchanges like Binance and Kraken said that they find it unfair to target every single Russian account and not let them use their platform referring to innocent civilians there.They said that they will block any wallet found connected to people which sanctions are in place against them from US and EU countries.For the moment the civilians can trade but this can change anytime now and the ones who have some Bitcoins in Russia should be very quick in trying to monetize them otherwise the suffering there has already begun because of very restrictive sanctions from US and Europe.

Man! that's tough, the question is..... does Putin really care about the sanctions and what effects it will have long term in the Russian economy or he is to egocentric to care?
I agree with binance and kraken, the citizens of Russian should not be punished for the crime of their president, he is too stubborn to listen to any sense of reason, there was no need for this war in the first place, especially fighting a country not as powerful as you in terms of arms and ammunition. it is very sad situation.

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Quote from: ABCbits on March 01, 2022, 04:42:04 AM

While i agree with your logic, i managed to find some BTC seller who accept RUB at HoldHodl[1]. But obviously the rate isn't fair. At time of writing the post, those seller charge 4-30% higher.

That's not unexpected, by far. Keep in mind that any seller risks that until the point he will spend those RUR they will probably worth much less than at the moment of trade.
And obviously the sellers also try to profit greatly...

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Quote from: stompix on February 28, 2022, 06:14:09 PM

Let me ask all of you the same question, how is this possible???

Because if poeple would sell their rubles for Bitcoin as the ruble becomes worthless, it means somebody is selling those bitcoins for rubles, right?
I don't see a Frenchman opening a bank account and having rubles sent to him in exchange for his BTC, can you picture that?

Quote from: KaliLinux on March 01, 2022, 03:36:31 AM

it is kinda dicey. With the free fall of the Russian Ruble, who will really want to sell their Bitcoin for RUB when others are trying to sell out of the RUB Huh

because that is the currency they are holding to trade with. I think if this has not been done already, regardless of the options they have via these DEXs it will be deficult.

While i agree with your logic, i managed to find some BTC seller who accept RUB at HoldHodl[1]. But obviously the rate isn't fair. At time of writing the post, those seller charge 4-30% higher.

[1] https://www.hodlhodl.com/offers?search=1&side=buy&country=RU&include_global=checked&price_currency=RUB

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Quote from: GreatArkansas on February 28, 2022, 08:46:18 PM

I saw also a lot of posts on social media about some people starting to use Bitcoin to store their wealth like converting their fiat money to Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies.

The problem is that the Russian ruble has lost about 30-40% of its value in a really short time. If you liquidate your rubles now, you get 30-40% less Bitcoin than you would have two days ago. But if this war continues, the ruble will fall even more. And something tells me that we haven't seen the worst of Putin yet. The best thing that can happen to the Russians is if some of his generals kill that little maniac.

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Quote from: Bitstar_coin on March 01, 2022, 04:10:44 AM

I was just brainstorming about the depth of the Russian sanctions and how deep it can affect them internally, so i was wondering if the various exchanges with branches in Russia will do the same thing as what is happening with banks and other non-Russian business? i mean like all the exchange who have their Russian version will stop trading because of the sanction!
i did a little search and i saw that there is -

Binance Russia
Kraken Russia
Bittrex Russia
OKCoin Russia
Bybit Russia (^{from coinmarketcap})

Will they stop providing services to the Russian crypto market, because it they do then it will be a huge issue for those who wants to buy btc with their RUB.

For the moment major exchanges like Binance and Kraken said that they find it unfair to target every single Russian account and not let them use their platform referring to innocent civilians there.They said that they will block any wallet found connected to people which sanctions are in place against them from US and EU countries.For the moment the civilians can trade but this can change anytime now and the ones who have some Bitcoins in Russia should be very quick in trying to monetize them otherwise the suffering there has already begun because of very restrictive sanctions from US and Europe.

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I was just brainstorming about the depth of the Russian sanctions and how deep it can affect them internally, so i was wondering if the various exchanges with branches in Russia will do the same thing as what is happening with banks and other non-Russian business? i mean like all the exchange who have their Russian version will stop trading because of the sanction!
i did a little search and i saw that there is -

Binance Russia
Kraken Russia
Bittrex Russia
OKCoin Russia
Bybit Russia (^{from coinmarketcap})

Will they stop providing services to the Russian crypto market, because it they do then it will be a huge issue for those who wants to buy btc with their RUB.

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Quote from: stompix on February 28, 2022, 06:14:09 PM

Because if poeple would sell their rubles for Bitcoin as the ruble becomes worthless, it means somebody is selling those bitcoins for rubles, right?

That's why I said the options are limited. The available options are most probably in-country, either face to face, either with the account at the same bank.
Don't rule out completely the option that some Russians may need to sell BTC for fiat (RUR, USD, EUR) for their daily spending.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 28, 2022, 06:34:21 AM

Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

Since Russia banks are out of SWIFT, Russians will not be able to transfer their rubles to most of the exchanges, hence I think that they don't have much of other choices than finding other individuals inside Russia willing to sell Bitcoin for RUR.

While they can't use most centralized exchange, their option isn't that limited. They still can rely on decentralized website and P2P/OTC medium such as Bisq and HodlHodl to find Bitcoin seller though.

it is kinda dicey. With the free fall of the Russian Ruble, who will really want to sell their Bitcoin for RUB when others are trying to sell out of the RUB Huh

because that is the currency they are holding to trade with. I think if this has not been done already, regardless of the options they have via these DEXs it will be deficult.

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Quote from: swogerino on February 28, 2022, 06:54:14 AM

Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

The Ruble is rapidly losing value, and the Russian government is considering seizing residents' cash.

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

Russian government has not issue a seizing order yet and they are allowing people to withdraw cash.Big lines are already being spotted all over the Internet in St.Petersburg waiting in line to withdraw their cash.As for Bitcoin they have no way how to transfer their cash to exchanges if they do it through the bigger banks because they are out of the SWIFT,however not all the banks as of right now are out of the SWIFT and if any individual has any account in less powerful banks in the ones who has not suffer ban from the SWIFT can send money to exchanges and buy Bitcoin.Safety is always a problem in Russia when we know how their government is so a hardware wallet which is small enough to keep with you is the best option to save your Bitcoins.I don't see any other alternative to their money except Bitcoin,they need to be wise otherwise they are already used to being poor as a nation (excluding the oligarchs).

It is necessary to understand that only those citizens of Russia who are well versed in it and trust it can turn to cryptocurrency in this situation. Across Russia, these are a small percentage. And the situation will develop very quickly. If the government, due to international sanctions and the critical financial situation, intends to confiscate the deposits of the population, it will very quickly block them.
If the government does not do this, it will be done by a group of hackers calling themselves Anonimius, who said they are giving the Russians until March 03 to withdraw their deposits. After that, their funds will be transferred to the accounts of the Armed Forces of Ukraine due to the aggression against Ukraine.

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I don't see any problem in buying bitcoins within Russia. Cryptocurrency exchanges still allow Russian users to make exchanges. The easiest way right now is bestchange, but it's not very profitable. It's easier to buy USDT for rubles and then buy BTC on the exchange.

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Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

The Ruble is rapidly losing value, and the Russian government is considering seizing residents' cash.

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

It is easier said than done! It is possible in small scale and at personal level if some exchanger is willing to take rubble against bitcoin. However, at large scale, it is impossible considering the value of Rubble is constantly diminishing. So it is very very difficult to find an exchanger or a group of exchanger who will be willing to sell off their bitcoins to the Russians against Rubble.

The situation is much worse than Putin has expected. From today, Google Pay and Apple Pay has stopped their services in Russia. The process to cut off Russia from SWIFT network is ongoing. So I don't think Russian riches will be able to buy bitcoins against their Rubble. However, if we suddenly see an increase an stability in Rubble's price, that may become possible. But looking at the current scenario, it seems very very difficult.

GreatArkansas

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Not only Russian rubble is suffering during these times, even some stock markets too.
There are already rumors that Russia is buying Bitcoin but not yet confirmed. I saw also a lot of posts on social media about some people starting to use Bitcoin to store their wealth like converting their fiat money to Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies.

Fundamentals Of

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There must still be a way left for Russians to buy Bitcoin. The Swift ban was not a blanket ban on all Russian banks after all. And even if the value of the Russian rouble is falling it doesn't mean that sellers like the ones who are doing it via decentralized platforms, over the counter, or meet-ups will not make any profit. The price of Bitcoin in Russian rouble will only become expensive. Premium might rise high because of the difficulty of access.

nullama

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The storage of wealth should have happened long time ago, at least before their currency halved in value.

Today they still have the option to provide goods and services for Bitcoin though.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 28, 2022, 06:34:21 AM

Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

Since Russia banks are out of SWIFT, Russians will not be able to transfer their rubles to most of the exchanges, hence I think that they don't have much of other choices than finding other individuals inside Russia willing to sell Bitcoin for RUR.

While they can't use most centralized exchange, their option isn't that limited. They still can rely on decentralized website and P2P/OTC medium such as Bisq and HodlHodl to find Bitcoin seller though.

Let me ask all of you the same question, how is this possible???

Because if poeple would sell their rubles for Bitcoin as the ruble becomes worthless, it means somebody is selling those bitcoins for rubles, right?
I don't see a Frenchman opening a bank account and having rubles sent to him in exchange for his BTC, can you picture that?

Now, if the Russians would first convert their rubles to USD or EURO, what would be the point for them to risk their money in bank transfers or on exchanges that might cut the service one second after they made the deposit and now keep those fiat notes traditional under bed or carpet style?
Not to mention how the hell are they going to get those foreign currencies.

To me, this seems like that famous Cyrpus bank run where Cypriots were buying bitcoins because the banks closed down. Wink

I'm almost certain this is a what-if pump that has almost nothing to do with the actual situation on the ground.

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Quote from: TimeTeller on February 28, 2022, 02:50:20 PM

Quote from: DdmrDdmr on February 28, 2022, 07:59:30 AM

This seems worrying, and a build-up to the pressure on Russian Citizens as a by-product of Putting’s appalling actions. Even though there is nothing tangible yet on the table as far as I’m aware, a week ago Arefiev, vice-chairman of the Duma’s committee on economic policy, stated that the bank deposits in people’s accounts could be seized, if all Russian funds abroad were to be blocked.

These declarations were made a week ago, during the build-up to the current situation, and therefore prior to the set of sanctions that have started being rolled-out.

It would be interesting to get some intake here from Russian natives as to the seriousness of the possibility coming true rather swiftly, and whether the general population is acting upon these declarations in some way to try to place their assets somewhere save.

See:
https://news-ru.translate.goog/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmozhnuyu-konfiskaciyu-sberezhenij-rossiyan/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://cointelegraph.com/news/russia-to-seize-retail-deposits-if-sanctions-go-too-far-official-warns

What they can do is to convert some of their cash to crypto while they can.
And transfer it to their own wallet like electrum and other non-custodial wallets where you have the full control of your assets.
At least, you are securing some of your funds where the government can't easily seize from your end.
And then, when all things are settled, and you know the situation is already safe, you can slowly convert your crypto to your fiat.
I believe, some Russian crypto users are already doing this as we speak or even before this catastrophe.
Sending fiat money outside I think, is hard now from their end.

More number of Russians were interested in converting their fiat holding to crypto, but they are not having much access as the days before the war. This is a difficulty that the Russians were experiencing now. If they've got cryptocurrency and are moving to another crypto it is possible, but to make a purchase with the fiat in the bank or from other sources it is a difficult task.

Right now with the limited services available the people need to find ways converting fiat to crypto. If people start to spend cryptocurrency and finds increase in the acceptance on needs then automatically there'll be circulation of cryptocurrency that fulfill the conversion of fiat to bitcoin.

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Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

The Ruble is rapidly losing value, and the Russian government is considering seizing residents' cash.

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

The Russian population has faced the devaluation of their currency for what I remember at least once during the last decades, and most likely the number is higher than that, and for what I know many Russians exchange their local currency for dollars to preserve their wealth under those circumstances.

And while bitcoin could be an option worth exploring in the case there is a scarcity of dollars at Russia during the next moths and years, I think they will prefer options like the euro, gold and silver to store their wealth than to use something like bitcoin.

willoweb

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When the whole world is up in arms against Russia, one should expect that it will be disconnected from all financial mechanisms of the West. If so, then bitcoin will be one of those ways that Russia will go to get around all these restrictions in the financial sector. I think that Russia still occupies a serious position in the global economy - and there will be losses for those who impose sanctions against it.

TimeTeller

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Quote from: DdmrDdmr on February 28, 2022, 07:59:30 AM

This seems worrying, and a build-up to the pressure on Russian Citizens as a by-product of Putting’s appalling actions. Even though there is nothing tangible yet on the table as far as I’m aware, a week ago Arefiev, vice-chairman of the Duma’s committee on economic policy, stated that the bank deposits in people’s accounts could be seized, if all Russian funds abroad were to be blocked.

These declarations were made a week ago, during the build-up to the current situation, and therefore prior to the set of sanctions that have started being rolled-out.

It would be interesting to get some intake here from Russian natives as to the seriousness of the possibility coming true rather swiftly, and whether the general population is acting upon these declarations in some way to try to place their assets somewhere save.

See:
https://news-ru.translate.goog/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmozhnuyu-konfiskaciyu-sberezhenij-rossiyan/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://cointelegraph.com/news/russia-to-seize-retail-deposits-if-sanctions-go-too-far-official-warns

What they can do is to convert some of their cash to crypto while they can.
And transfer it to their own wallet like electrum and other non-custodial wallets where you have the full control of your assets.
At least, you are securing some of your funds where the government can't easily seize from your end.
And then, when all things are settled, and you know the situation is already safe, you can slowly convert your crypto to your fiat.
I believe, some Russian crypto users are already doing this as we speak or even before this catastrophe.
Sending fiat money outside I think, is hard now from their end.

masterrex

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Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

The Ruble is rapidly losing value, and the Russian government is considering seizing residents' cash.

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

Honestly, speaking before the war was started between the Ukraine and Russia I never expect that this will happen very fast, it boomerangs to Russia like a domino effect soon because the Russian economy will collapse many people will put the blame on Mr. Putin and his government and I believe that the war is far from over because Ukrainian resistance is very strong and Mr. Putin is trying to play a Phsywar game using its Nuclear Dildo, and I think the world is united to say stop the war because we are all indirectly affected by this Mr. Putin war actions cause by its Tantrums. in my country the price of basic commodities are increasing so fast due to the rise of oil prices.

Anyway, I believe that crypto people in Russia are not happy with Mr. Putin's decision but they don't have a choice they become the collateral by the wrong actions of their leader, and now that effect was already felt how can they continue to trade and do business with crypto when they are no access the Swift system? some said the DeX and P2P could be the better option by im doubting it because it needs also a bank to handle the fiat and crypto transactions.

DdmrDdmr

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There are lies, damned lies and statistics. MTwain

This seems worrying, and a build-up to the pressure on Russian Citizens as a by-product of Putting’s appalling actions. Even though there is nothing tangible yet on the table as far as I’m aware, a week ago Arefiev, vice-chairman of the Duma’s committee on economic policy, stated that the bank deposits in people’s accounts could be seized, if all Russian funds abroad were to be blocked.

These declarations were made a week ago, during the build-up to the current situation, and therefore prior to the set of sanctions that have started being rolled-out.

It would be interesting to get some intake here from Russian natives as to the seriousness of the possibility coming true rather swiftly, and whether the general population is acting upon these declarations in some way to try to place their assets somewhere save.

See:
https://news-ru.translate.goog/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmozhnuyu-konfiskaciyu-sberezhenij-rossiyan/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://cointelegraph.com/news/russia-to-seize-retail-deposits-if-sanctions-go-too-far-official-warns

Sophiya

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It is this situation that shows the advantage of using decentralized exchanges. A lot of Russians are engaged in cryptocurrency exchange. Most people took care of their money savings in advance and converted fiat to other currencies.

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Quote from: ABCbits on February 28, 2022, 07:06:50 AM

I get your point and it's valid point when a Russian trading with foreigner. But i meant Russian trying to find Russian BTC seller where both of them use Russia bank (local bank transfer).

That may work if the other party also has and account to the same bank. I think that transfers between Russian banks also needs SWIFT.
But yes, you're right, this may be indeed one use case that doesn't need face to face. (I've added now an update to the other post too)

ABCbits

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 28, 2022, 06:50:03 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

While they can't use most centralized exchange, their option isn't that limited. They still can rely on decentralized website and P2P/OTC medium such as Bisq and HodlHodl to find Bitcoin seller though.

From what I've understood from here (Romanian, here's a Google translation), if it's out of SWIFT, the customers of the bank can only withdraw money, nothing else. So I expect that - in a way or another - only face to face trades could take place there.

I get your point and it's valid point when a Russian trading with foreigner. But i meant Russian trying to find Russian BTC seller where both of them use Russia bank (local bank transfer).

davis196

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Quote

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

I don't think so.Gold and real estate properties and the most obvious solutions for preserving wealth.
Do you really think that all the Russians will immediately start buying Bitcoins,after Russia being cut out of SWIFT?
I assume that at least 80% of the Russians probably haven't heard of Bitcoin.They simply won't trust a digital currency in such unpredictable situation.
We don't know anything about the economic situation inside Russia.There are too many lies and propaganda.
Some Russians are saying that many banks in Russia don't have enough cash and many bank withdrawals are being blocked.I don't know if this is true.
I believe that the Russian economy will begin to slowly deteriorate in the upcoming weeks and months,if Putin doesn't agree to a peace.

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Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

The Ruble is rapidly losing value, and the Russian government is considering seizing residents' cash.

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

Russian government has not issue a seizing order yet and they are allowing people to withdraw cash.Big lines are already being spotted all over the Internet in St.Petersburg waiting in line to withdraw their cash.As for Bitcoin they have no way how to transfer their cash to exchanges if they do it through the bigger banks because they are out of the SWIFT,however not all the banks as of right now are out of the SWIFT and if any individual has any account in less powerful banks in the ones who has not suffer ban from the SWIFT can send money to exchanges and buy Bitcoin.Safety is always a problem in Russia when we know how their government is so a hardware wallet which is small enough to keep with you is the best option to save your Bitcoins.I don't see any other alternative to their money except Bitcoin,they need to be wise otherwise they are already used to being poor as a nation (excluding the oligarchs).

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: NeuroticFish on February 28, 2022, 06:34:21 AM

Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

Since Russia banks are out of SWIFT, Russians will not be able to transfer their rubles to most of the exchanges, hence I think that they don't have much of other choices than finding other individuals inside Russia willing to sell Bitcoin for RUR.

While they can't use most centralized exchange, their option isn't that limited. They still can rely on decentralized website and P2P/OTC medium such as Bisq and HodlHodl to find Bitcoin seller though.

From what I've understood from here (Romanian, here's a Google translation), if it's out of SWIFT, the customers of the bank can only withdraw money, nothing else. So I expect that - in a way or another - only face to face trades could take place there.

Edit: as seen here (thanks ETFbitcoin for pointing out), if the other party has account at the same bank, it may work P2P without the need for face-to-face.

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Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

Since Russia banks are out of SWIFT, Russians will not be able to transfer their rubles to most of the exchanges, hence I think that they don't have much of other choices than finding other individuals inside Russia willing to sell Bitcoin for RUR.

Quote from: BenjaminGlover on February 28, 2022, 06:23:22 AM

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

Bitcoin price has quite a history of going up and down. One needs to have been reading and trusting Bitcoin for long term - the past charts show that for minimum 4 years it was usually a good investment.
But right now? No. One may need to access the money "tomorrow". Also, as I said, it won't be easy to find sellers.
Right now Russians would better exchange their fiat in any other currency. But I think that they've already missed that train too...

PS. Keeping the private keys/seed on an USB stick is unsafe. Paper or steel are better, usually kept in multiple places.

BenjaminGlover

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The Ruble is rapidly losing value, and the Russian government is considering seizing residents' cash.

Bitcoin appears to be an obvious solution for preserving your wealth in this circumstance.

However, is this even possible? What would a Russian do in this situation? Are they able to just transfer their Rubles to exchange, purchase Bitcoin, and then transfer it to a wallet?

And, if so, is it attainable? Will someone who has worked their entire lives and saved money for their family's future trust a strange technique to transfer that money to a USB stick?

Topic: To what extent are Russians capable of storing their riches in Bitcoin? (Read 482 times)