TOR + New accounts = Impossible (for free).

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: LoyceV on August 26, 2020, 05:04:09 AM

Quote from: Chikito on August 24, 2020, 06:16:28 AM

It's a good idea, maybe OP has to try VPN over Tor. Connecting into VPN first to cover the Tor exit node. Let's do that experiment with free VPN and change all credentials when login success.

I assume you'll use the VPN first, and then Tor. This hides the fact that you're using Tor from your ISP. The forum will see the Tor exit node, not your VPN.

Connecting to your VPN server first and then to Tor is "Tor over VPN", as opposed to the other way around for "VPN over Tor" as DroomieChikito is talking about it.

Connecting to a VPN first and then to Tor doesn't add much to your privacy, unless as you say you want to hide your Tor usage from your ISP. This can equally be achieved without a VPN at all by using Tor bridges and/or pluggable transports. It may be worthwhile doing if you trust your VPN provider more than Tor, and were worried that a malicious third party could control both your entry and exit nodes to the Tor network. In terms of the evil fee, this set up makes no difference as your IP address will still come from your Tor exit node.

Connecting to Tor first and then to your VPN negates the whole point of Tor, as I explained above. It could potentially help with the evil fee if your VPN server's IP address is considered less evil than the Tor exit node you are using. Just as you would have to try multiple Tor exit nodes and are unlikely to find a completely clean one, you would also have to try multiple VPN servers and again are unlikely to find a completely clean one.

LoyceV

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A year ago, I created Should Evil fees have a maximum? when I saw a $58 evil fee:

Quote from: LoyceV on August 15, 2019, 01:48:14 PM

I can imagine this $58 fee is scaring off real users who use Tor to protect their privacy.

Paying $3 sounds much more reasonable for a real user to join a forum than paying $58, while it's still too much to be worth it for a spammer.
It would really be a waste if the high Evil fee stops good users from joining.

As a result, theymos reduced the maximum:

Quote from: theymos on August 16, 2019, 03:01:40 PM

OK, I reduced the maximum to the same price as copper membership, since it doesn't really make sense for copper membership to be cheaper when it includes whitelisting.

Theymos agrees it's still a bit high, but I don't think it was lowered further:

Quote from: theymos on August 16, 2019, 03:01:40 PM

In the last 30 days:
- 16441 users registered.
- 4040 required a fee, and the average required fee among them was 0.00127297 BTC.
- 99 paid the fee, and the average fee paid was 0.00116449 BTC.

Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 03:20:56 AM

What I wanted to note is that, people are advised to use TOR for better privacy protection but they are actually gonna face the at least 10 Captcha solving and a fee in addition. So in the privacy statement should be noted that if you wish to create an account trough TOR you should expect some fees which have to be paid to be able to post in the forum.

For a while now, I've considered starting an "account creation service for privacy" just to avoid the captcha, including a Protonmail email account (this took me several days to create). If I ever start this, it won't be for spammers as I'll charge enough to get all accounts Copper Membership, and the buyer will get a captcha bypass code with his brand new account. Some people are willing to pay good money for privacy.

Quote from: Chikito on August 24, 2020, 06:16:28 AM

It's a good idea, maybe OP has to try VPN over Tor. Connecting into VPN first to cover the Tor exit node. Let's do that experiment with free VPN and change all credentials when login success.

I assume you'll use the VPN first, and then Tor. This hides the fact that you're using Tor from your ISP. The forum will see the Tor exit node, not your VPN.

Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 07:14:46 AM

Imagine you register an account trough TOR with all that captcha solving for 5-10 min and then suddenly you have to pay. If you don't have/own bitcoin and you don't know how to pay then you probably be disappointed and will never come back.

I don't think I would have created my account if I had to pay a fee back in the days, and I'm probably not the only one. I wish I would have used Tor from the start though, lost privacy is impossible to regain.
Tor gives the same captcha problem on many websites, which makes it quite annoying to use. Privacy is quite expensive in terms on time.

notblox1

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Quote from: tranthidung on August 25, 2020, 12:28:59 PM

It is not a perfect solution due to some reasons:

It takes time to move to different locations, try to create several accounts and wait for luck.
Your account with a preferred username might be charged fee to be allowed making posts. Additionally, the forum almost does not allow members to change usernames, at least newly created accounts. Beside VIP accounts (with 50 BTC donation), only old and reputable accounts can be given privilege to change username by theymos' generosity.

Not moving permanently to other location.
You just go one day walk in your city with your laptop or mobile phone and you register on forum until you get in for free.
Genuine new members will not pay anything to register on any forum 100%

tranthidung

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Quote from: notblox1 on August 24, 2020, 12:26:02 PM

I know a guy who tried to create his first account in bitcointalk forum, and he never heard about it before.
Imagine his surprise when he saw he needs to pay evil fee, just because his internet provider is sharing IP addresses.
One solution is to try and create account from other location, your friends house, school or some public place.
I tried test registration with Tor, and it is impossible like OP is saying.

It is not a perfect solution due to some reasons:

It takes time to move to different locations, try to create several accounts and wait for luck.
Your account with a preferred username might be charged fee to be allowed making posts. Additionally, the forum almost does not allow members to change usernames, at least newly created accounts. Beside VIP accounts (with 50 BTC donation), only old and reputable accounts can be given privilege to change username by theymos' generosity.

Buying a Copper membership is the best solution: to save time, and to get your preferred username.

hilariousetc

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Quote from: notblox1 on August 24, 2020, 12:26:02 PM

I know a guy who tried to create his first account in bitcointalk forum, and he never heard about it before.
Imagine his surprise when he saw he needs to pay evil fee, just because his internet provider is sharing IP addresses.
One solution is to try and create account from other location, your friends house, school or some public place.
I tried test registration with Tor, and it is impossible like OP is saying.

It might be helpful if theymos could put a warning like this for users trying to sign up via tor or a bad IP. I can imagine it being pretty annoying trying to create an account with the dodogy captcha then when you finally get through you're met with a banned account message to pay a fee. Some users will just leave in frustration. To others wanting to create an account not on their own connection just go to Starbucks or McDonalds and use their wifi, then use tor from there on out.

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Quote from: tranthidung on August 24, 2020, 03:07:58 AM

Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 01:16:52 AM

Both got banned with Evil fees.

It is not true for all cases. Banned or not banned, it depends on evil score of exit node when you use Tor to create accounts. Evil scores are adjusted over time (no one knows how the score will be degraded over time, but theymos discloses it does degrade).

I am fairly confident that known Tor exit nodes will have a minimum amount of evil points, regardless of the number of actual accounts banned associated with the exit node IP address.

It would probably actually make sense to have known tor exit nodes have a fixed amount of units of evil (the maximum or close to the max) as this is not a good metric for tor exit nodes. It makes no sense for someone to pay a higher fee just because they happen to be using an exit node that has been around for longer as the end user has no control as to which exit node they are using.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Besides, combining VPN and Tor is more complicated and could gone wrong easily.

Not to mention that routing through Tor first and then connecting to a VPN server pretty much negates the point of using Tor in the first place, as your VPN provider can see all your traffic and link it to any credentials they hold on you, such as the email address, IP address, or payment information you used when signing up.

Quote from: InvoKing on August 24, 2020, 10:35:39 AM

the second of the possibility to count this fee when buying copper membership. I am not sure about this point but I believe I saw it somewhere in the past.

Anything you pay towards your evil fee is subtracted from the price of a copper membership, and the evil fee is capped at the same price as a copper membership.

Here are the relevant posts from theymos:

Quote from: theymos on November 10, 2017, 04:23:30 PM

If you paid an "evil IP" registration fee, then whatever you paid (in BTC terms) is subtracted from the upgrade fee.

Quote from: theymos on August 16, 2019, 03:01:40 PM

OK, I reduced the maximum to the same price as copper membership, since it doesn't really make sense for copper membership to be cheaper when it includes whitelisting.

notblox1

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I know a guy who tried to create his first account in bitcointalk forum, and he never heard about it before.
Imagine his surprise when he saw he needs to pay evil fee, just because his internet provider is sharing IP addresses.
One solution is to try and create account from other location, your friends house, school or some public place.
I tried test registration with Tor, and it is impossible like OP is saying.

InvoKing

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 07:14:46 AM

The idea is that the forum is advising that if people are concern for their privacy they have to use TOR but as I said you have to pay for this, so it can be added that additional fees may apply during registration.

Imagine you register an account trough TOR with all that captcha solving for 5-10 min and then suddenly you have to pay. If you don't have/own bitcoin and you don't know how to pay then you probably be disappointed and will never come back.

That's true, I will be disappointed too if this happens to me in another forum.
I recommend adding 2 side notes, one for the possibility of evil fees and its definition, the second of the possibility to count this fee when buying copper membership. I am not sure about this point but I believe I saw it somewhere in the past.

DaveF

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There are a few other semi-anonymous ways that have not been totally abused yet depending on your location [coffee shops, library, schools, even 4G through your phone].
Some are more anonymous then others, many are not available in certain areas.

With that being said, it does kind of come back to how much is your time worth. If you have a lot of free time then tor might be the answer. If you can earn more money doing something else then a paid VPN might be better for some people.

But, as the OP posted getting it for free through TOR the 1st time is almost impossible.

Makes you wonder if that would be a good side hustle. I can sit in a Starbucks and make 3 accounts while sipping my coffee. If I sell then to users who want an alt for $2.00 my coffee is now only $37.50 :-)

-Dave

TheBeardedBaby

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 24, 2020, 05:30:33 AM

There is no way around this while continuing to use Tor, unfortunately. Either you pay the fee, or you continually pick new exit nodes and register a new account from each until you find one which is relative new and therefore does not have an evil fee yet.

Since you are already an established member, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for your alt account to be manually whitelisted without paying the evil fee.

This thread is not about my alts, I can always create a new alt without TOR as I did it before, The idea is that the forum is advising that if people are concern for their privacy they have to use TOR but as I said you have to pay for this, so it can be added that additional fees may apply during registration.

Imagine you register an account trough TOR with all that captcha solving for 5-10 min and then suddenly you have to pay. If you don't have/own bitcoin and you don't know how to pay then you probably be disappointed and will never come back.

Chikito

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Quote from: tranthidung on August 24, 2020, 03:32:47 AM

How about VPN to create account? Then later on use Tor to log-in and make post? I did not try but it is my pop-up ideas. I think it can work and maybe better than Tor at beginning.

It's a good idea, maybe OP has to try VPN over Tor. Connecting into VPN first to cover the Tor exit node. Let's do that experiment with free VPN and change all credentials when login success.

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/can-you-use-tor-and-vpn-together/

o_e_l_e_o

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There is no way around this while continuing to use Tor, unfortunately. Either you pay the fee, or you continually pick new exit nodes and register a new account from each until you find one which is relative new and therefore does not have an evil fee yet.

Since you are already an established member, I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for your alt account to be manually whitelisted without paying the evil fee.

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Quote from: pooya87 on August 24, 2020, 03:46:57 AM

a small chance not a big one. most of the times abusers don't spend any money for their abuse and even if they do, the paid VPNs have better IP addresses and lots of them so the chances of finding an IP address that was abused and still has its evil points (hasn't gone back down yet) is very small.
but you usually want to buy VPN for other purposes to increase your privacy and also use it to sign up here.

To be fair, VPNs can't offer the same level of assurance as compared to Tor. You just cannot verify if a VPN provider is indeed not storing logs. Even if you were to purchase a VPN, you might as well just pay the evil fees which is way cheaper than using a VPN to create an account.

It's quite inevitable that Tor IPs will have high evil score. Without that, the forum would be over-whelmed with spam and it'll be hard to filter and read. It's a decent trade-off for a better forum but there might still be better ways to do this.

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 03:38:45 AM

there is a big chance that the paid VPNs are abused too, but I won't buy one just to try.

a small chance not a big one. most of the times abusers don't spend any money for their abuse and even if they do, the paid VPNs have better IP addresses and lots of them so the chances of finding an IP address that was abused and still has its evil points (hasn't gone back down yet) is very small.
but you usually want to buy VPN for other purposes to increase your privacy and also use it to sign up here.

TheBeardedBaby

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Quote from: tranthidung on August 24, 2020, 03:32:47 AM

Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 03:20:56 AM

What I wanted to note is that, people are advised to use TOR for better privacy protection but they are actually gonna face the at least 10 Captcha solving and a fee in addition. So in the privacy statement should be noted that if you wish to create an account trough TOR you should expect some fees which have to be paid to be able to post in the forum.

Sure. I understood your points. It is the root problems with Tor so that people who use Tor have to aware of such.

How about VPN to create account? Then later on use Tor to log-in and make post? I did not try but it is my pop-up ideas. I think it can work and maybe better than Tor at beginning.

The spammers/acc.farmers already took the advantige of this. Sometime ago I tried with the integraed Opera VPN, same thing and I'm prety sure that the rest of those free VPNs are aslo listed with Evil fees. Thinking about it, there is a big chance that the paid VPNs are abused too, but I won't buy one just to try.
Pretty much if you want privacy you have to pay for it one way or another. Nothing anymore is free...

tranthidung

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 03:20:56 AM

What I wanted to note is that, people are advised to use TOR for better privacy protection but they are actually gonna face the at least 10 Captcha solving and a fee in addition. So in the privacy statement should be noted that if you wish to create an account trough TOR you should expect some fees which have to be paid to be able to post in the forum.

Sure. I understood your points. It is the root problems with Tor so that people who use Tor have to aware of such.

How about VPN to create account? Then later on use Tor to log-in and make post? I did not try but it is my pop-up ideas. I think it can work and maybe better than Tor at beginning.

TheBeardedBaby

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Quote from: tranthidung on August 24, 2020, 03:07:58 AM

Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 01:16:52 AM

Both got banned with Evil fees.

It is not true for all cases. Banned or not banned, it depends on evil score of exit node when you use Tor to create accounts. Evil scores are adjusted over time (no one knows how the score will be degraded over time, but theymos discloses it does degrade).

For real users, paying a few BTC to buy Copper Membership if a new account gets banned because of evil IP is not bad. It is acceptable. However, to have evil IPs that mean owners or users of those IPs are actually create many accounts (more than 3 in short period - I don't remember where I read it but I recalled that someone said so) then those people mainly feel unacceptable to pay for Copper Membership.

I tried with different exit nodes, what I didn't check was if the Evil fees are the same or different. Depending on the number of banned accounts the fee can vary. I don't want to recklessly create 1000 accounts just to get one without fees, but it's not the point of the thread.
What I wanted to note is that, people are advised to use TOR for better privacy protection but they are actually gonna face the at least 10 Captcha solving and a fee in addition. So in the privacy statement should be noted that if you wish to create an account trough TOR you should expect some fees which have to be paid to be able to post in the forum.

tranthidung

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Quote from: TheBeardedBaby on August 24, 2020, 01:16:52 AM

Both got banned with Evil fees.

It is not true for all cases. Banned or not banned, it depends on evil score of exit node when you use Tor to create accounts. Evil scores are adjusted over time (no one knows how the score will be degraded over time, but theymos discloses it does degrade).

For real users, paying a few BTC to buy Copper Membership if a new account gets banned because of evil IP is not bad. It is acceptable. However, to have evil IPs that mean owners or users of those IPs are actually create many accounts (more than 3 in short period - I don't remember where I read it but I recalled that someone said so) then those people mainly feel unacceptable to pay for Copper Membership.

TheBeardedBaby

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There were many threads already regarding the issues with the TOR browser and the Captcha problems, but not so many for new users and Evil score.

I tried to register an Alt account using Tor. No chance.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/qt-btc-2844402
https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/qtbtc-2844391

Both got banned with Evil fees. I understand that many were abusing TOR in the forum but than this statement in the privacy link should be edited >
From here:

Quote

It's possible to use bitcointalk.org without submitting any personal info. Use Tor + a throwaway email + a new pseudonym, etc. If you care about preventing personal information from being collected on bitcointalk.org, then preventing this collection is your responsibility.

Well, paying for your security is not that bad but since everyone else is making accounts for free this should be at least noted and explained in the privacy link from above.

Topic: TOR + New accounts = Impossible (for free). (Read 361 times)