Author

Topic: Tornado cash and others mixers (Read 406 times)

legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 22, 2023, 01:38:16 PM
#46
I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
They just get a fine and move on. In The Netherlands, banks process €16 billion criminal money per year. ING paid a €775 million fine 5 years ago, ABN AMRO €480 million 2 years ago. The Dutch government still owns 56.3% of the latter. How ironic is that?

Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.
This is literally what CoinJoin wallet Wasabi did. See Wasabi blacklisting update - open letter / 24 questions discussion thread.

Quote
Zo had een klant van ABN AMRO, die de laagste risicoclassificatie had gekregen, voor 49 van zijn vennootschappen tussen 2014 en 2018 in totaal 192 bankrekeningen geopend bij ABN AMRO. Deze rekeningen waren grotendeels inactief. Deze klant pleegde fiscale fraude waardoor hij bijna 200.000 euro van de Belastingdienst ontving op de zakelijke rekeningen. Het geld werd door de klant na overboekingen naar zijn privérekeningen bij ABN AMRO grotendeels uitgegeven of contant opgenomen. De risicoclassificatie bleef laag ondanks verschillende signalen en twijfels die er binnen ABN AMRO waren over deze klant. De bank maakte pas melding van ongebruikelijke transacties bij de FIU na aanvang van het strafrechtelijk onderzoek naar deze klant.
I remember these fraud schemes in Russia, when several firms were opened for one person in each region, region and various tax and other fraud schemes were turned. There was no single centralized data base for all regions, subjects, regions of the country, and there were more than 80 of these subjects. I do not remember that banks were responsible for this.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
July 22, 2023, 03:01:01 AM
#45
I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
They just get a fine and move on. In The Netherlands, banks process €16 billion criminal money per year. ING paid a €775 million fine 5 years ago, ABN AMRO €480 million 2 years ago. The Dutch government still owns 56.3% of the latter. How ironic is that?

Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.
This is literally what CoinJoin wallet Wasabi did. See Wasabi blacklisting update - open letter / 24 questions discussion thread.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 21, 2023, 11:51:02 PM
#44
When you mentioned IP filter, I was thinking if it's the same mixers that makes provision to browse their sites privately with Tor incorporated?
I'm not sure I understood your question correctly, but I was referring to clearnet IP filtering. Stuff like blocking visits from countries or VPN IPs and so on. I do know one or two mixers that do this on their clearnet website but most people can still use ToR to access their services. So yeah, some mixers do recommend users to use ToR and apply IP filtering on their clearnet website.

Well, since they have the power to do it, we cannot say that they haven't freezed an innocent person's account. As I always say, all are sinners in the eyes of the government. They might decide to resurrect your previous sins in order to implicate you presently.
I guess that's true. At the very least you can opt not to use any centralized service if you want to avoid them.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 20, 2023, 08:31:28 AM
#43
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
Well, anything really. Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.

Why then make such difficult decisions?
AML provider can independently provide cryptomixer services Smiley
AML provider is a very good business. Companies pay huge amounts of money to these services, but the AML provider is not legally held accountable unless they block criminal coins.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 252
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
July 20, 2023, 07:11:31 AM
#42
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
Well, anything really. Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.
It's likely that no mixer will go such an extra miles to defend themselves when the government comes against them. Apart from the process being expensive as you noted, the mixing company may likely not have customers when people understand how far they go in order to set up their customers.
When you mentioned IP filter, I was thinking if it's the same mixers that makes provision to browse their sites privately with Tor incorporated?

Yes US government keeps coming to sites who related to crypto and then seizing them and freezing their crypto holding at the end of the day they can sell it  Cool
They always do that to criminal cases afaik. I don't think they will freeze people's assets blindly on exchanges, for example. Unless of course, they claim it was related to money laundering or other criminal cases. CMIIW.
Well, since they have the power to do it, we cannot say that they haven't freezed an innocent person's account. As I always say, all are sinners in the eyes of the government. They might decide to resurrect your previous sins in order to implicate you presently.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 20, 2023, 06:09:29 AM
#41
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
Well, anything really. Using a database from a chain analysis company to filter out addresses so they can block out transactions, IP filter, and so on. I'm responding to the question of how a mixer might defend itself from government scrutiny. I don't think any mixer is going to implement them though, since the cost to run them is likely expensive and it might affect their branding too.

Yes US government keeps coming to sites who related to crypto and then seizing them and freezing their crypto holding at the end of the day they can sell it  Cool
They always do that to criminal cases afaik. I don't think they will freeze people's assets blindly on exchanges, for example. Unless of course, they claim it was related to money laundering or other criminal cases. CMIIW.
copper member
Activity: 1988
Merit: 905
Part of AOBT - English Translator to Indonesia
July 19, 2023, 09:44:01 PM
#40
The US government has also accused many crypto exchanges of this crime. Any crime in the blockchain leaves its traces forever, and therefore the blockchain will work against criminals in time, when experts see all the transactions of criminals.

Yes US government keeps coming to sites who related to crypto and then seizing them and freezing their crypto holding at the end of the day they can sell it  Cool

Like the recent news - https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/07/12/us-government-moves-300m-worth-of-bitcoin-linked-to-silk-road-on-chain-data/
"The U.S. government previously sold 9,861 bitcoin for $216 million in March. Two wallets tagged as belonging to the U.S. government and linked to the Silk Road seizure of crypto have moved over $300 million worth of bitcoin (BTC) in three separate transactions on Wednesday morning, on-chain data shows."

legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 19, 2023, 07:16:53 AM
#39
Avoiding crimes such as laundering with mixers lie in the hands of the mixers to control because if they don't control it, when the government gets involved, it doesn't really go well.
I guess we can only ask them how they plan to avoid government scrutiny, and if they have a plan to implement a filter or something similar. But then again there is no ideal solution since some customers might get turned off by their rules. There is also a potential for abuse since we can't easily dispute their claims if they decide our funds are "tainted" and unsafe to mix. I guess people should realize that everything is never gonna be safe and plan accordingly or use other tools if they can't find any good mixer for their purpose.
What filter are you talking about?
Not one AML provider will work with a mixer, because it will show everyone that these providers have very little efficiency. Then after that, a criminal case will need to be opened against the AML provider Smiley And the mixer is not to blame for anything. Grin
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 3645
Buy/Sell crypto at BestChange
July 19, 2023, 07:15:03 AM
#38
Their KYC is a joke with compliant specialists who don't do their job correctly, it's well know. So the KYC is easy to bypass.
Before and after KYC, it's not a secret that Binance has been participating directly or not in several money laundering schemes
CM admin's data was obtained from data he provided to Binance so they are cooperating with the authorities whose preferred option is always Chainalysis. Chainalysis runs Electrum servers, some CoinJoin mixes, collaborates with Wasabi and with some wallets/hardware wallets, explorers, almost impossible for the average user not to have data registered on Chainalysis.

Chainalysis and its competitors are always late. After opening a fraudulent scheme or any crime, these services can track the path of money and mark addresses, but most likely the coins will belong to bona fide buyers. And the exchange, unfortunately, may not know that the coins were criminal when they came to the exchange and the AML providers did not respond at that moment.
I wouldn't be surprised if Chainalysis was running a mixing service, as after CM stopped many competitors appeared who could not verify the quality of the mixing service they provide.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 19, 2023, 07:07:07 AM
#37
Avoiding crimes such as laundering with mixers lie in the hands of the mixers to control because if they don't control it, when the government gets involved, it doesn't really go well.
I guess we can only ask them how they plan to avoid government scrutiny, and if they have a plan to implement a filter or something similar. But then again there is no ideal solution since some customers might get turned off by their rules. There is also a potential for abuse since we can't easily dispute their claims if they decide our funds are "tainted" and unsafe to mix. I guess people should realize that everything is never gonna be safe and plan accordingly or use other tools if they can't find any good mixer for their purpose.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 19, 2023, 06:38:30 AM
#36
I confirm, Bitzlato wasn't an exchange

Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao accused Chainalysis on Twitter of “bad business etiquette.”"

Do you see how it's funny? Binance is a customer of Chainalysis for years Cheesy
(as well Gemini, Gov., and many others)

bad business etiquette is always the kind of excuse he likes to uses when it doesn't fit his agenda.
Why still pay a company if they think it has a bad business etiquette? it's like saying that your baker is an asshole but you're still going to buy your bread from him

Their KYC is a joke with compliant specialists who don't do their job correctly, it's well know. So the KYC is easy to bypass.
Before and after KYC, it's not a secret that Binance has been participating directly or not in several money laundering schemes
Chainalysis and its competitors are always late. After opening a fraudulent scheme or any crime, these services can track the path of money and mark addresses, but most likely the coins will belong to bona fide buyers. And the exchange, unfortunately, may not know that the coins were criminal when they came to the exchange and the AML providers did not respond at that moment.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 252
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
July 18, 2023, 10:16:12 AM
#35
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW.
Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
Mixer with KYC is a crazy idea that cannot sell. It is just like telling someone to submit their data to you for you to help them hide their data. Just that your data in your hand is not safe, it is only safe in miners hands. Even exchanges are loosing customers because of KYC, let alone mixers.

Avoiding crimes such as laundering with mixers lie in the hands of the mixers to control because if they don't control it, when the government gets involved, it doesn't really go well.
hero member
Activity: 2100
Merit: 618
July 16, 2023, 03:27:03 PM
#34
Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
It is surely not alone. There are a lot of mixers that have come under the radar of different governments around the globe. Even Chipmixer was recently shut allegedly for money laundering and also a few years back bitmixer themselves shut their services of bitcoin mixing. These companies know that governments would never want anonymous transaction and anything making them anonymous will be busted sooner or later.
copper member
Activity: 2828
Merit: 4065
Top Crypto Casino
July 16, 2023, 01:14:05 PM
#33
I confirm, Bitzlato wasn't an exchange

Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao accused Chainalysis on Twitter of “bad business etiquette.”"

Do you see how it's funny? Binance is a customer of Chainalysis for years Cheesy
(as well Gemini, Gov., and many others)

bad business etiquette is always the kind of excuse he likes to uses when it doesn't fit his agenda.
Why still pay a company if they think it has a bad business etiquette? it's like saying that your baker is an asshole but you're still going to buy your bread from him

Their KYC is a joke with compliant specialists who don't do their job correctly, it's well know. So the KYC is easy to bypass.
Before and after KYC, it's not a secret that Binance has been participating directly or not in several money laundering schemes
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 16, 2023, 04:52:01 AM
#32
Binance and Bitzlato, a lot of btc passed between the two exchanges. In fact, Binance has not been asking its customers for a KYC for so long. So it was quite easy to get anything through quite easily. There are many articles about this.

Quote
Crypto giant Binance processed almost $346 million in bitcoin for the Bitzlato digital currency exchange, whose founder was arrested by U.S. authorities last week for allegedly running a "money laundering engine," blockchain data seen by Reuters show.

https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/binance-moved-346-mln-seized-crypto-exchange-bitzlato-data-show-2023-01-24/

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/fintech-crypto-binance-dirtymoney/

https://www.amlintelligence.com/2023/06/binance-under-investigation-in-france-for-money-laundering

(...)

If people don't know Bitzlato, there are now a lot of articles about it, and therefore in particular the links with Binance.

But hey, it's really not just in crypto that there is money laundering, it shouldn't represent much compared to the laundering carried out by the banks...
"During this period, Binance processed transactions totalling at least $2.35 billion stemming from hacks, investment frauds and illegal drug sales, Reuters calculated from an examination of court records, statements by law enforcement and blockchain data, compiled for the news agency by two blockchain analysis firms. Two industry experts reviewed the calculation and agreed with the estimate.

Separately, crypto researcher Chainalysis, hired by U.S. government agencies to track illegal flows, concluded in a 2020 report that Binance received criminal funds totalling $770 million in 2019 alone, more than any other crypto exchange. Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao accused Chainalysis on Twitter of “bad business etiquette.”"
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/fintech-crypto-binance-dirtymoney/

__
I have said this many times, that any crypto exchange can be blamed for such violations, but this is rarely talked about in the news.
hero member
Activity: 1820
Merit: 775
I love BitBox02 (Shiftcrypto) and Zeus (Cryptotag)
July 15, 2023, 09:13:39 PM
#31
Binance and Bitzlato, a lot of btc passed between the two exchanges. In fact, Binance has not been asking its customers for a KYC for so long. So it was quite easy to get anything through quite easily. There are many articles about this.

Quote
Crypto giant Binance processed almost $346 million in bitcoin for the Bitzlato digital currency exchange, whose founder was arrested by U.S. authorities last week for allegedly running a "money laundering engine," blockchain data seen by Reuters show.

https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/binance-moved-346-mln-seized-crypto-exchange-bitzlato-data-show-2023-01-24/

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/fintech-crypto-binance-dirtymoney/

https://www.amlintelligence.com/2023/06/binance-under-investigation-in-france-for-money-laundering

(...)

If people don't know Bitzlato, there are now a lot of articles about it, and therefore in particular the links with Binance.

But hey, it's really not just in crypto that there is money laundering, it shouldn't represent much compared to the laundering carried out by the banks...
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 15, 2023, 05:06:27 AM
#30
Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
True, a lot of people would not use a mixer that explicitly or found to be working with a government/somebody else that collects their data. They'd probably choose a coinjoin or another mixer asap. I've never heard about Bitlato exchange. How did they work as a mixer if they are an exchange, to begin with? A quick search seems to suggest that the founder basically run an unregistered service and facilitate money laundering practice for blacklisted business etc. CMIIW.
read the news
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64322576
__
Bitzlato was not an exchange, it was a large peer-to-peer exchange that had contracts with AML licensed services. But for some reason news sites do not write about this anywhere.
They were not lucky because they are Russians, one founder was arrested in the USA, the second is now in Russia, but it is dangerous for him to leave the country.
AML services do not give any guarantees, they charge a lot of money for services, but in the contract they write that they do not guarantee the result..
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 14, 2023, 08:32:26 AM
#29
I also agree with you that the later was the case with chipmixer which shows that they somehow deviated from their statement years after. I also do not think that what happened to chipmixer was just one particular incident. It seems that they have done it so many times and they have been in the bad book of the government for many years without their knowledge. When the evidences were so glaring,  FBI had to strike.
They will be investigated sooner or later even if they don't mix any coins from hackers etc imo. A nonregistered service in the eye of the government will be classified as suspicious even if the data about them is so scarce. I guess that's just the risk of running a mixing service.

Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
True, a lot of people would not use a mixer that explicitly or found to be working with a government/somebody else that collects their data. They'd probably choose a coinjoin or another mixer asap. I've never heard about Bitlato exchange. How did they work as a mixer if they are an exchange, to begin with? A quick search seems to suggest that the founder basically run an unregistered service and facilitate money laundering practice for blacklisted business etc. CMIIW.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 13, 2023, 01:38:10 PM
#28
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW.
Mixer with KYC Smiley I think that customers will not use it. There is another practice when the mixer cooperates with AML services and before using the mixer, the AML service allows the use or writes that the coins have traces of a crime. But this did not help the BITZLATO exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 252
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
July 13, 2023, 07:15:35 AM
#27
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW.
I also agree with you that the later was the case with chipmixer which shows that they somehow deviated from their statement years after. I also do not think that what happened to chipmixer was just one particular incident. It seems that they have done it so many times and they have been in the bad book of the government for many years without their knowledge. When the evidences were so glaring,  FBI had to strike.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 12, 2023, 11:10:35 PM
#26
Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
I'd say the latter. I mean, some news reported that they mix funds from various criminals whether you believe it or not, so the story is quite clear. As far as I'm aware a privacy service itself is allowed, which is why stuff like VPN and so on exist. I remember reading that a mixer is basically a money service business, which is why the government also requires them to comply with KYC and so on. Basically, it is fine to run a mixer as long as the government can see the data while others have difficulties decrypting it. CMIIW.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 12, 2023, 09:49:48 AM
#25
There's no perfect solution for this IMO. Worst comes to worst, some mixers can stop their service and relaunch with another name (as long as they don't use the same addresses, etc).

There is truly no perfect solution. Any mixer leaking the people's information to the government is digging their graves because the people are the customer and it is for the purpose of same privacy the people run to mixers. Why betray them?

Bitcoin mixers.Interview 06.2020 (EN)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers.
4 question
4. Haters of bitcoin mixers say that "all mixers transmit data to the special services, or they will be closed very quickly." What do you say in response ?

ChipMixer:
"4. If you had power to close any service very quickly, would you start with privacy tools or law breaking services?

MixTum Mixer:
"4. Such things are untestable by an outside observer, but we at [banned mixer] know that at least one exception exists. And, again, we have been running for almost two years. I guess whether this is achievable depends on where your team and your infrastructure is located."

FoxMixer:
"4. The data FoxMixer requires is as minimal as it can be. No accounts, no passwords. We don't even require access - our site can be used entirely via Tor interface. All mixes are deleted after 7 days."


Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
My opinion about mixers is positive, I use them sometimes, but I have no criminal income and I am not involved in criminal activities, so I do not worry if my transfer data is stolen or given to special services.
__
But the owners of the mixer risk a very large prison term for their activities, so if there is a choice between cooperation with the authorities, then any criminal will cooperate. He doesn't want to go to jail for life.
hero member
Activity: 462
Merit: 472
July 10, 2023, 05:59:33 AM
#24
All mixers work the same way, why are some in the viewfinder and not others? How to know if the holders of such an address have committed illicit activities or not? Can the owner of the mixer know? Is its role to block addresses possible?
Your question is like asking why is the US government attacking only Binance and Coinbase. They can only sue a firm if they have evidence that they committed a crime. SEC is attacking these exchanges now because they have proof that Binance and Coinbase violated the financial laws of the US. Other exchanges might not be clean but the government has not gotten substantial evidence to come for them.

Generally, the US government has been hostile to crypto-related businesses, so this attack on Tornado Cash can be politically or economically motivated. Mixers are giving a worthy service to the crypto community but some criminals can also take advantage of it. After all government officials and others also use the banks to launder illegal funds to tax havens and shell companies.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 252
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
July 10, 2023, 04:46:26 AM
#23
There's no perfect solution for this IMO. Worst comes to worst, some mixers can stop their service and relaunch with another name (as long as they don't use the same addresses, etc).

There is truly no perfect solution. Any mixer leaking the people's information to the government is digging their graves because the people are the customer and it is for the purpose of same privacy the people run to mixers. Why betray them?

Bitcoin mixers.Interview 06.2020 (EN)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers.
4 question
4. Haters of bitcoin mixers say that "all mixers transmit data to the special services, or they will be closed very quickly." What do you say in response ?

ChipMixer:
"4. If you had power to close any service very quickly, would you start with privacy tools or law breaking services?

MixTum Mixer:
"4. Such things are untestable by an outside observer, but we at [banned mixer] know that at least one exception exists. And, again, we have been running for almost two years. I guess whether this is achievable depends on where your team and your infrastructure is located."

FoxMixer:
"4. The data FoxMixer requires is as minimal as it can be. No accounts, no passwords. We don't even require access - our site can be used entirely via Tor interface. All mixes are deleted after 7 days."


Singling out chipmixer's answer. Is what happened to them as a result of privacy or law breaking services?
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 08, 2023, 12:50:55 PM
#22
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too.
It seems you misunderstood me or I didn't express myself so well. The friendliness used in this context doesn't mean the mixers being wiling to share all the private data in their custody to the government. It rather means an environment where the government is less concerned on what happens in the mixers.

Going by your suggestion that the mixers should ban money laundering activities in their ToS. Even if they do, it cannot be monitored. I also feel that the mixers are not involved in some of the laundering that happens.
Bitcoin mixers.Interview 06.2020 (EN)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mixers-interview-062020-5254652
Look at the answer to question 4 for different mixers. I've seen mixers on this forum that have been shut down by the secret services and it doesn't look like a collaboration.But I have not seen any evidence of cooperation between the misers that we have in this forum with governments.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 08, 2023, 12:33:06 AM
#21
It rather means an environment where the government is less concerned on what happens in the mixers.
Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen. The government will always try to control every mixing service for their own purpose, so unless the mixer works together with them I doubt they'll be free from scrutiny.

Going by your suggestion that the mixers should ban money laundering activities in their ToS. Even if they do, it cannot be monitored. I also feel that the mixers are not involved in some of the laundering that happens.
That's true, which is why I doubt it will be effective to begin with. I'm not even sure it will give them enough legal loopholes if they don't filter funds on their own, which brings another issue with potential users leaving them if they do that. There's no perfect solution for this IMO. Worst comes to worst, some mixers can stop their service and relaunch with another name (as long as they don't use the same addresses, etc).
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 252
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
July 07, 2023, 03:52:40 AM
#20
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too.
It seems you misunderstood me or I didn't express myself so well. The friendliness used in this context doesn't mean the mixers being wiling to share all the private data in their custody to the government. It rather means an environment where the government is less concerned on what happens in the mixers.

Going by your suggestion that the mixers should ban money laundering activities in their ToS. Even if they do, it cannot be monitored. I also feel that the mixers are not involved in some of the laundering that happens.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 06, 2023, 10:11:36 AM
#19
there is actually bunch of case similiar to tornado cash us government keep banning the mixer since they argue that mixer used for criminal to launder the money.

and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash
The US government has also accused many crypto exchanges of this crime. Any crime in the blockchain leaves its traces forever, and therefore the blockchain will work against criminals in time, when experts see all the transactions of criminals.
But the trial has only just begun, let's wish Alexei Pertsev patience.
copper member
Activity: 1988
Merit: 905
Part of AOBT - English Translator to Indonesia
July 06, 2023, 08:18:43 AM
#18
there is actually bunch of case similiar to tornado cash us government keep banning the mixer since they argue that mixer used for criminal to launder the money.

and tornado cash actually big since it happen on ethereum and the majority of hacker laundry their money to tornado cash and the app accept not just eth but also stablecoin bnb and other this might be the advantage of tornado cash
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1789
July 06, 2023, 06:41:53 AM
#17
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
What kind of friendliness are you talking about? A business that focuses on privacy is not going to be popular if they explicitly share data with the government. Maybe they'll do it behind the scene, though I've yet to see one that is safe from a government investigation. Another option is probably explicitly banning money laundering activities on their ToS. Not sure how effective that will be since it doesn't guarantee any immunity, not to mention their potential customer might not use them because of that too.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 252
My post made philipma1957 wear signature
July 05, 2023, 03:42:22 PM
#16
Tornado cash is considered an offense by the US Department of the Treasury for money laundering. Seems like all the money laundering accusations are always attached to the mixing company. Tornadocash is reported to have laundered $7 billion.

Tornado Cash is accused of using their mixer service for money laundering by the Lazarus Group. According to reports, the Lazarus Group laundered $455 million. Apart from Lazarus, the Tornado Cash service is also used by a hacker group called Harmony. Harmony is a group of hackers specializing in breaking into crypto platforms, they laundered $100 million in Tornado Cash
Invariably all mixers are stained. They have sinned in one way or the other in the eyes of the government. They are all lambs in the alter of sacrifice. It is a matter of whose turn to be sacrificed and not the reason to be sacrificed.
It is high time mixers begin to consider economic friendliness before starting operation in a particular zone.
sr. member
Activity: 1204
Merit: 466
#SWGT CERTIK Audited
July 05, 2023, 11:47:15 AM
#15
Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
One of the many reasons is US officials has lit this specific BTC mixer on their sanction list while others are not on the sanction list so they are investigating Tornado not others.

The second reason is, they are investigating Tornado mixer for like 3 years and they have theories that said it has been used to launder $7 billion. Which make the mixer most wanted among others. I can see on a news that they are investigating this case from quite some time but one of the founder caught by the Dutch law forces.

I am also speculating another mixer which is being promoted on this platform. After the last one was seized by official. I do not want to mention the name but I have read some reports from quite some time and I think official will shift their interest toward that mixer too.

The point is when the officials will have something in their hands to capture anyone involved in laundering then they will proceed until they cannot make any step that's why they are catching the ones who may be involved in Tornado but they are not catching those on whom they have nothing in their hands. Like proofs.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 05, 2023, 09:28:40 AM
#14

Yes, the developer was arrested in Netherlands.
Tornado Cash Developer to Stay in Jail as Dutch Trial Continues

https://twitter.com/blockblanc/status/1648998168527360001?
"Next Wednesday 26th, he can await his trial at home with electronic monitoring.

The most important thing is that he can walk around and work on his defense, something that was virtually impossible while detained."
https://decrypt.co/137355/dutch-court-agrees-to-free-tornado-cash-dev-alex-pertsev-pending-trial
The criminal case will not end soon

https://decrypt.co/142239/tornado-cash-developer-alexey-pertsev-question-chainalysis
Tornado Cash Developer Can Question Chainalysis at Trial, Says Judge
The court granted Pertsev permission to question Chainalysis about its methods, albeit in writing, because of the role its data played in his arrest.
sr. member
Activity: 1526
Merit: 412
July 05, 2023, 08:53:55 AM
#13
[....]It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
No straightforward declaration that the service is illegal but I think all mixers are included in the watchlist of various Government organizations so that's basically saying there's a target on their back. Keep in mind that there were a lot of mixers that were seized prior to the Tornado Cash sanction.

I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
It's not that banks launder the money. It's banks that doesn't have strong security measures against money laundering and uncooperative that are usually sanctioned.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
July 05, 2023, 08:32:34 AM
#12
Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
Tornado cash was a large and well-known project and the blow to such a project was a signal for the entire crypto industry. The development team was not very smart not to understand all the legal implications of such a project and that hackers and criminals would use it. But the same accusations can be made against any major project.
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 390
July 05, 2023, 05:38:44 AM
#11
I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

The problem is not about the mixers but tornado cash involvements in series of crime related offenses already known by many people, have you considered betterqual mixer to mention few from the recent ones, they were targeted while we have other mixers not targeted because they have never been found in such mess before, there's alot to discuss when it comes to integrity, trust and reputation which tornado cash was found lacking behind, now we should know more about who are the developers behind their operations and what security measures have they taken against their system hack before this happened.
hero member
Activity: 1722
Merit: 801
July 05, 2023, 05:26:03 AM
#10
I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?
They were targeted when they became bigger and more money laundered on their platform. Especially when the Lazarus Group laundered stolen cryptocurrency on Tornado Cash, they were more seriously chased by governments.

Why did the US Treasury sanction Tornado Cash?
Quote
According to the Treasury, Tornado Cash has laundered approximately $7 billion in cryptocurrency since its inception in 2019. The laundered assets include $445 million hacked by the Lazarus Group, a well-known North Korean hacker group subject to US penalties. The group was previously tied to the $625 million Ronin Network and $100 million Horizon Bridge hacks.

Quote
Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
Yes, the developer was arrested in Netherlands.
Tornado Cash Developer to Stay in Jail as Dutch Trial Continues
hero member
Activity: 1820
Merit: 775
I love BitBox02 (Shiftcrypto) and Zeus (Cryptotag)
July 05, 2023, 04:53:53 AM
#9
I do not have the impression that the authorities are so eager to sanction "official" banks that launder money from illicit activities
hero member
Activity: 2464
Merit: 934
July 05, 2023, 12:47:42 AM
#8
Tornado cash was based in the Netherlands. Chipmixer was based in Vietnam. Both of these countries will comply with whatever the United States wants them to do. Both of these mixers were used by North Korean hackers so they had a big target on their back from U.S. law enforcement. The U.S. was not going to allow these mixers to provide their service to a country that they see as an enemy, allowing them to bypass their sanctions.

If that's true, I wonder how long will Sinbad mixer will last, it's also used by north korean hackers however the dev is quite confident of his anonymity.

Quote
As for whether Mehdi himself might be identified, indicted, arrested, or sanctioned, he told WIRED he remains relatively confident about his own fate. He shared a long list of cryptocurrency mixing services on the forum BitcoinTalk, pointing out that relatively few have faced those outcomes. "It would be silly not to worry about it at all. I take all the necessary precautions to protect my anonymity," he wrote—notably, prior to Elliptic's revelation that Sinbad and Blender may be connected—but he added that "I expect to remain part of the market and not become one of the unfortunate exceptions."
Source

member
Activity: 1204
Merit: 49
Binance #Smart World Global Token
July 04, 2023, 11:28:16 PM
#7


In my view, all crypto mixers are always getting a red flag observation by the government most especially coming from USA regulatory bodies. Though there is always a debate on the importance of mixers and how they can also be utilized by non-illegal means, there is no question that when you are hiding something then we can assume that there can be something wrong, that is aside from claim of privacy, of course. Now, I have not used any mixer in the past and I don't I will ever use one. I think Tornado Cash was targeted because of the claims it was heavily used by hackers and scammers and we have to admit it that mixers are accepting business irregardless of the source of funds and they usually do not ask who their customers are.
sr. member
Activity: 1624
Merit: 336
Top Crypto Casino
July 04, 2023, 10:37:34 PM
#6
Tornado cash was based in the Netherlands. Chipmixer was based in Vietnam. Both of these countries will comply with whatever the United States wants them to do. Both of these mixers were used by North Korean hackers so they had a big target on their back from U.S. law enforcement. The U.S. was not going to allow these mixers to provide their service to a country that they see as an enemy, allowing them to bypass their sanctions.
hero member
Activity: 2310
Merit: 757
Bitcoin = Financial freedom
July 04, 2023, 10:20:06 PM
#5
All mixers work the same way, why are some in the viewfinder and not others?
Operating a mixing service is not illegal but when they are found to be abused by users to violate the laws will get them to face the consequences. So whatever crypto mixers have broken the guidelines such as it has been used for money laundering purpose can face legal actions.

How to know if the holders of such an address have committed illicit activities or not? Can the owner of the mixer know? Is its role to block addresses possibly?
Obviously by tracing and investigating the user database along with the address used in the instance of hack, scam, crime,etc and its connected the dots with a mixer address. Mixing service platform may blacklist the funds incoming from addresses related to hacks.
hero member
Activity: 1820
Merit: 775
I love BitBox02 (Shiftcrypto) and Zeus (Cryptotag)
July 04, 2023, 09:56:22 PM
#4
All mixers work the same way, why are some in the viewfinder and not others? How to know if the holders of such an address have committed illicit activities or not? Can the owner of the mixer know? Is its role to block addresses possibly?
hero member
Activity: 2310
Merit: 757
Bitcoin = Financial freedom
July 04, 2023, 09:47:56 PM
#3
Here is the actual reason
Quote
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/08/crypto-mixing-service-tornado-cash-blacklisted-by-treasury-department-.html
Crypto mixing service Tornado Cash blacklisted by Treasury Department for alleged use in laundering


    The Treasury Department has sanctioned the popular cryptocurrency mixing service Tornado Cash for allegedly helping launder over $7 billion of virtual currency.
    The decision means that Americans are banned from using the service.
    Similar sanctions were imposed in May 2022 on another popular service, Blender.io.

....


This is not the first a crypto mixer is sanctioned, blacklisted or shut down completely even in the most recent days the most reputed bitcoin mixer called Chipmixer was shut down by EU and US accusing of money laundering.
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 456
July 04, 2023, 09:09:19 PM
#2
Tornado cash is considered an offense by the US Department of the Treasury for money laundering. Seems like all the money laundering accusations are always attached to the mixing company. Tornadocash is reported to have laundered $7 billion.

Tornado Cash is accused of using their mixer service for money laundering by the Lazarus Group. According to reports, the Lazarus Group laundered $455 million. Apart from Lazarus, the Tornado Cash service is also used by a hacker group called Harmony. Harmony is a group of hackers specializing in breaking into crypto platforms, they laundered $100 million in Tornado Cash
hero member
Activity: 1820
Merit: 775
I love BitBox02 (Shiftcrypto) and Zeus (Cryptotag)
July 04, 2023, 08:28:27 PM
#1
Hello,

I've been following the tornado cash case, but I didn't quite understand why this particular mixer was targeted and not all mixers in general. It seems to me that it would make more sense to target none or all of them, no?

I think I'm missing some information to fully understand.

Ps: do you have any information on the dev arrested in the Netherlands?
Jump to: