Trade Feedback vs Non Trade Feedback

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Quote from: KingsDen on September 12, 2022, 02:59:16 PM

Quote

The Pharmacist is an important figure in the forum. I trust him for always standing by his judgement no matter who is involved. He also help good forum users (both newbies and higher ranks) to rank up.
Though you might not like some of his judgements and opinions, but one thing is correct about him, he is very objective. I trust him.

Quote

Traded my 0.067ish BTC (Value $537.48) for his 2.1 ETH.
Very quick and smooth.
Thank you.

Very distinct. The first trust is based on charisma and personality and the second is based on trade or business. Everyone could easily differentiate.

The first one is a statement and the 2nd one is a trade feedback. The first one does not need to be a positive feedback but a neutral feedback is more than fine. The 2nd one should be a positive feedback since the experience of the trade was positive.

Quote from: LoyceV on September 12, 2022, 03:05:32 PM

The real question you should ask is: which one of those feedbacks is easier to get?

The first one may take years to achieve. But there are holes. Using the holes a user can gain trust easily. Haven't we seen these trust farmers and trust spammers?
The second one also can be earned faster. Someone trading $1 deal with a user can send a positive feedback.

The Pharmacist was able to raise a good idea which was discussed here, I think we can reduce these spams if somehow the idea can be implemented.

hugeblack

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I'm one of those people who doesn't understand trust system(despite all my time here) so won't be surprised if it's such a complicated thing for beginners.

Adding more details will not reduce scam, because most of the accounts that scam are newbie accounts with 0 trading experience/trust rating.

Forum accounts have value, so high-ranking members rarely scams with small amounts.

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Quote from: Little Mouse on September 12, 2022, 03:09:23 AM

There are a lot of feedbacks which are oriented from non-trade but because people trust him due to their forum activities etc. Would it bring any benefit if theymos allow us to choose whether it's a feedback oriented from trade or not.

We have option to select neutral, positive, negative. There will be two more options on another section which will be something like-
°Trade Feedback
°Non Trade Feedback

And the output will be visible by score with a different color.
Do you think it will be a good idea to force this when user will leave a feedback?

If you counted actual feedback that had real money behind it, you might find that some of the folks with the largest trust networks around here are just people who throw opinions around and have no actual real world physical interactions with other users whatsoever. Weighting real feedback from actual interactions over arm chair opinions would cause quite a stir for some folks at the top of the trust network around here. Suddenly people would realize there are 2 very different types of users here.

KingsDen

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Quote from: LoyceV on September 12, 2022, 03:05:32 PM

Quote from: KingsDen on September 12, 2022, 02:59:16 PM

Quote

The Pharmacist is an important figure in the forum. I trust him for always standing by his judgement no matter who is involved. He also help good forum users (both newbies and higher ranks) to rank up.
Though you might not like some of his judgements and opinions, but one thing is correct about him, he is very objective. I trust him.

Quote

Traded my 0.067ish BTC (Value $537.48) for his 2.1 ETH.
Very quick and smooth.
Thank you.

The real question you should ask is: which one of those feedbacks is easier to get?

Well, I can say that the second is easier to get.

The first type of trust needs time and consistency to earn, but the second could be earned easily if you offer such an exchange business.

However, the second is the real definition of trust in the forum context, because something was committed without betrayal.

LoyceV

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Quote from: KingsDen on September 12, 2022, 02:59:16 PM

Quote

The Pharmacist is an important figure in the forum. I trust him for always standing by his judgement no matter who is involved. He also help good forum users (both newbies and higher ranks) to rank up.
Though you might not like some of his judgements and opinions, but one thing is correct about him, he is very objective. I trust him.

Quote

Traded my 0.067ish BTC (Value $537.48) for his 2.1 ETH.
Very quick and smooth.
Thank you.

The real question you should ask is: which one of those feedbacks is easier to get?

KingsDen

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Goodnight, o_e_l_e_o 🌹

Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on September 12, 2022, 02:31:09 PM

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on September 12, 2022, 06:18:29 AM

I just noticed the (OP) tag was added, so maybe there's hope, because that was a pretty recent suggestion if I recall correctly. But that change is a minor one compared to making changes in the trust system, which is mind-bogglingly complex and almost irreparably broken.

I am assuming OP was inspired by this implementation. Finally something came from Theymos after long time. But yeah like you said, it was an easy implementation considering the user provided the code.

OP can write some code for it or anyone else can do it and propose their idea to Theymos

I thought as much that theymos may not have the time to write codes and start implementing every nice suggestions made about the forum. And the reason that the "OP" inclusion suggestion was promptly approved is because the code was written.

About OP's suggestion of differentiating between a trade and non trade related feedback. I think is not needed because something is already serving the purpose. That is the feedback description itself.

Check these two feedbacks below and see if you will have difficulty in identifying the one that is trade related and non trade related. If you find it difficult to differentiate, it means Op's suggestions could be considered, otherwise it shouldn't.

Quote

The Pharmacist is an important figure in the forum. I trust him for always standing by his judgement no matter who is involved. He also help good forum users (both newbies and higher ranks) to rank up.
Though you might not like some of his judgements and opinions, but one thing is correct about him, he is very objective. I trust him.

Quote

Traded my 0.067ish BTC (Value $537.48) for his 2.1 ETH.
Very quick and smooth.
Thank you.

Very distinct. The first trust is based on charisma and personality and the second is based on trade or business. Everyone could easily differentiate.

khaled0111

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Even if such feature is going to be implemented, I don't believe it will change anything. There are no guarantees that all forum members will use it as intended. Besides, the trust system is supposed to be decentralized, therefore, there is no way to force members to use it properly.
Someone may tick the "trade feedback" checkbox and leave a "non trade feedback" and I doubt mods or admins will want to get involved into this.

imo, the best thing to do is to start distrusting members who misuse the trust system and repeatedly leave irrelevant feedbacks.

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on September 12, 2022, 06:18:29 AM

I just noticed the (OP) tag was added, so maybe there's hope, because that was a pretty recent suggestion if I recall correctly. But that change is a minor one compared to making changes in the trust system, which is mind-bogglingly complex and almost irreparably broken.

I am assuming OP was inspired by this implementation. Finally something came from Theymos after long time. But yeah like you said, it was an easy implementation considering the user provided the code.

OP can write some code for it or anyone else can do it and propose their idea to Theymos. However I do not think it will help much, there are too many trust spammers and trust farmers around. But with this implementation at least we can easily separate a positive feedback that was left of $1 trade and the one was left for supporting an argument in a topic 🤣

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Quote from: Little Mouse on September 12, 2022, 03:09:23 AM

And the output will be visible by score with a different color.
Do you think it will be a good idea to force this when user will leave a feedback?

Adding different colors is not going to make anything better.
I would not create any additional complication with making separate feedback for trust, and everyone can already see the reason why feedback is given to specific member.
Even if separate feedback would exist, someone would need to review all feedback given so far, and even then you would also have people giving feedback in wrong place.

DaveF

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I started a discussion about this over 3 years ago, and back then it was still a re-hash of previous discussions:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/do-we-need-1-more-datapoint-for-trust-in-trades-and-only-trades-5154576

I think it comes back to the people that care about it REALLY care about it.
However, there are many more people that don't buy / sell /trade here so although it would be a good thing it will only matter to a limited number of users.

Still really want it to happen, but after all these years, I just don't see it happening.

-Dave

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Quote from: Little Mouse on September 12, 2022, 04:19:52 AM

Quote from: Upgrade00 on September 12, 2022, 03:30:24 AM

A non trade option doesn't quite fit into the feedback system.

But a lot of the feedback visible by default are from NON TRADE. Don’t ask me for stats. This NON TRADE feedbacks help some scammers to scam big sum which we have already seen few times. I don't want to name anyone here but we all know how feedback system is working here. Let me be honest, I checked your sent feedbacks and they were quite satisfactory but a lot of DT members don't practice this at all.

My issue with this is I think it'd be very easy for a scammer to do trades just to get their trader trust higher - we've seen that before around here a lot too. Since the new trust system was introduced, it's more encouraged to read through others' trust histories first before doing any trading with them - perhaps we need more emphasis on this (/due diligence) in the marketplace section than we do different trust depending on whether a trade was done or not.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on September 12, 2022, 03:25:26 AM

You can visibly read people's feedback on their trust page (I mean the reason the feedbacks are given), I do not think this is needed at all.

Yeah, that's pretty much been the state of things for years, and the issue Little Mouse brought up here has been raised a number of times since I've been a member--and every time the discussion just dies down and goes away. So unless Theymos suddenly starts implementing suggestions like these, I don't think anything is going to change.

I just noticed the (OP) tag was added, so maybe there's hope, because that was a pretty recent suggestion if I recall correctly. But that change is a minor one compared to making changes in the trust system, which is mind-bogglingly complex and almost irreparably broken.

OP, I support you with this one. The fact that anyone can leave anyone else any kind of feedback for any reason should tell you that things need to change. But I've gotten so used to it that it's only mildly aggravating these days.

Little Mouse

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Quote from: Upgrade00 on September 12, 2022, 03:30:24 AM

A non trade option doesn't quite fit into the feedback system.

But a lot of the feedback visible by default are from NON TRADE. Don’t ask me for stats. This NON TRADE feedbacks help some scammers to scam big sum which we have already seen few times. I don't want to name anyone here but we all know how feedback system is working here. Let me be honest, I checked your sent feedbacks and they were quite satisfactory but a lot of DT members don't practice this at all.

Quote from: LoyceV on September 12, 2022, 04:09:22 AM

Even "trade feedback" is often used too easily: I've seen many users with positive feedback from a seller and the escrow, even though none of them risked anything to the user (but both earned from the trade).

True indeed but in current feedback system, a lot of positive feedback has nothing to do with the positive feedback. And sadly you can't get out of them. If I have to ~ them, I believe I will be left with nuetral trust score for everyone (maybe little more).

LoyceV

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Quote from: Little Mouse on September 12, 2022, 03:09:23 AM

Do you think it will be a good idea to force this when user will leave a feedback?

No. The Trust system is already too complicated for many people. Even "trade feedback" is often used too easily: I've seen many users with positive feedback from a seller and the escrow, even though none of them risked anything to the user (but both earned from the trade).

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Trust feedbacks are primarily used for trade related reasons, so making a distinction doesn't seem necessary.
Before trust flags, there were some ambiguity about what requires a feedback and what doesn't, but theymos cleared this up when creating flags;

Quote from: theymos on June 11, 2019, 10:13:36 PM

Use-case #1 is the old trust system, but I made the descriptions on the rating types a bit more general and removed the concept of a trust score. The numbers are now "distinct positive raters / distinct neutral raters / distinct negative raters". You should give these ratings for anything which you think would impact someone's willingness to trade with the person, but you should not use trust ratings to attack a person's opinions or otherwise talk about things which would not be relevant to reasonable prospective traders.

Use case #1 above, was 'getting a general idea of someone's trade history and trustworthiness".
Imo, trade doesn't have to be a exchange of goods or currency, purchasing a service and getting it delivered on time and as expected, great communication during the process is also added in.

A non trade option doesn't quite fit into the feedback system.

Charles-Tim

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You can visibly read people's feedback on their trust page (I mean the reason the feedbacks are given), I do not think this is needed at all.

Little Mouse

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There are a lot of feedbacks which are oriented from non-trade but because people trust him due to their forum activities etc. Would it bring any benefit if theymos allow us to choose whether it's a feedback oriented from trade or not.

We have option to select neutral, positive, negative. There will be two more options on another section which will be something like-
°Trade Feedback
°Non Trade Feedback

And the output will be visible by score with a different color.
Do you think it will be a good idea to force this when user will leave a feedback?

Topic: Trade Feedback vs Non Trade Feedback (Read 218 times)