Trading BAKKT with physical delivery

exstasie

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Quote from: tbterryboy on August 10, 2020, 11:26:14 AM

Quote from: exstasie on August 10, 2020, 07:23:19 AM

That's not the total volume traded, just the number being physically delivered at contract expiration.

Physically delivered coins are probably being accumulated by investors and removed from the market for longer term investment. The vast majority however are just sloshing back and forth, being traded by short term speculators. Those traders don't get coins delivered. They roll forward their positions into the next monthly contract instead.

In that case do you know what is the volume that is total? not just the physical ones but the total of them?

I can't find officially reported cumulative volume from the ICE but you can see the daily volume on monthly contracts here: https://www.theice.com/products/72035464/Bakkt-Bitcoin-USD-Monthly-Futures/data?marketId=6137618

So ~3K-4K BTC volume on each of the front two contracts.

This is a snapshot of USD volume over the past month:

tbterryboy

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Quote from: exstasie on August 10, 2020, 07:23:19 AM

That's not the total volume traded, just the number being physically delivered at contract expiration.

Physically delivered coins are probably being accumulated by investors and removed from the market for longer term investment. The vast majority however are just sloshing back and forth, being traded by short term speculators. Those traders don't get coins delivered. They roll forward their positions into the next monthly contract instead.

In that case do you know what is the volume that is total? not just the physical ones but the total of them? At least that way we could calculate the contribution of bakkt into the bitcoin world, without that we couldn't possibly know about how much they are affecting the crypto world.

I still think that no matter what the answer turns out to be, they are probably not that much affecting it, they surely do have some effect but it is definitely not as big as people make it out to be, it is 10% of probably what people are reacting to it. I still remember when bitcoin price skyrocket before bakkt started because they declared they will start and people thought it would increase the price and how price plummeted because people realized it wasn't as big of a deal as they thought it would be.

exstasie

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Quote from: tbterryboy on August 09, 2020, 01:38:45 PM

It is great to hear that they are actually getting more and more work however those hundreds of bitcoin is such a low amount that it is almost like it doesn't exist at all. We are talking about a product that produces 900 a day, so having hundreds per month is literally nothing.

BAKKT has been talked about in length and has been a discussion for a loooong period of time yet they haven't made that much trade to validate all this talk about them. I would assume that people would have to actually see thousands upon thousands to actually be valued this much attention.

That's not the total volume traded, just the number being physically delivered at contract expiration.

Physically delivered coins are probably being accumulated by investors and removed from the market for longer term investment. The vast majority however are just sloshing back and forth, being traded by short term speculators. Those traders don't get coins delivered. They roll forward their positions into the next monthly contract instead.

tbterryboy

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It is great to hear that they are actually getting more and more work however those hundreds of bitcoin is such a low amount that it is almost like it doesn't exist at all. We are talking about a product that produces 900 a day, so having hundreds per month is literally nothing. Obviously it is better than what I do, which is not even 1 bitcoin , not even 1/10 of a coin, however at the end of the day I do not make the news, nobody checks me out, nobody talks about me, so it is expected of me to not be important and make trades.

Whereas this BAKKT has been talked about in length and has been a discussion for a loooong period of time yet they haven't made that much trade to validate all this talk about them. I would assume that people would have to actually see thousands upon thousands to actually be valued this much attention.

el_rlee

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Why do they make it so difficult to partake in this? At this premium I would be more than happy to sell some...

exstasie

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Quote from: el_rlee on August 05, 2020, 02:34:53 PM

Anybody managed to physically deliver / receive BAKKT Futures in the meantime?

Not personally. I still prefer unregulated exchanges.

I can't find the data directly from Bakkt but some analysts have been periodically reporting on it. As of June, ~ a couple hundred BTC were getting physically delivered every month:

el_rlee

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Anybody managed to physically deliver / receive BAKKT Futures in the meantime?

1Referee

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 17, 2019, 03:00:00 AM

Yeah, you'd think that if Bakkt was going to be a smashing success it would have been on fire from day one. That obviously wasn't the case. I'd like to give it some time to see if it catches on, but I have the feeling it won't.

How can Bakkt be fire from day one when most entities to eventually utilize Bakkt futures won't do that directly through Bakkt, but through their brokerage accounts, and the adoption of brokerage firms can take a while (generally it's a process of months up to a year).

It really seems that people expected Bakkt to change the whole market and generate tons of volume, but it was never capable of doing that, and still isn't, hence the low volumes even after their launch. It's much better to give them a couple of months to let brokerage firms get access to the platform and have their accounts set up, that's when the volume should increase exponentially.

If after a couple of months their volumes are still 50ish, then sure, it can be considered a flop.

el_rlee

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Quote from: exstasie on October 17, 2019, 03:40:18 AM

There could be premium over spot due to lack of liquidity in the regulated markets.

Yeah, but they don't want the liquidity I would be adding... My email is still not answered...

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 17, 2019, 03:00:00 AM

Also, I'm assuming the prices shown are above current market value because they're options and not actual bitcoin being sold, so it would make sense that someone is betting on a higher price in the future dates listed there....? Can't say I fully understand what Bakkt is all about, but what understanding I do have is that it's a futures/options market that offers physical delivery of bitcoin if the trader on the winning side of the contract wants it. Do I at least have that part correct?

It actually is actual Bitcoin being sold. Futures are not options. Futures are delivered - you have no choice in that. (To be fair, probably 99% of futures are not delivered, but sold before maturing... but that's besides the point Wink

)

Quote from: exstasie on October 17, 2019, 03:40:18 AM

However right now, there are no custody (or even clearing/exchange) fees on Bakkt while they build liquidity: https://www.bakkt.com/publicdocs/Bakkt_faq.pdf

Hey, good document - I somehow overlooked that.

So I guess the way to set this up would be to approach a clearer, set up an account, deposit safeties (guessing Bitcoin will not do), get an account with the BAKKT warehouse etc, etc, etc

exstasie

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Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 17, 2019, 03:00:00 AM

Quote from: el_rlee on October 16, 2019, 01:48:46 AM

Also where does the strong contango come from? The high cost of storing Bitcoin?

I'm going to sound like an utter idiot here, but what is a contango?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contango

Quote from: The Sceptical Chymist on October 17, 2019, 03:00:00 AM

Can't say I fully understand what Bakkt is all about, but what understanding I do have is that it's a futures/options market that offers physical delivery of bitcoin if the trader on the winning side of the contract wants it. Do I at least have that part correct?

Yeah but like most physically delivered futures markets, the majority of contracts will probably be rolled over into new contracts or settled in cash.

The Sceptical Chymist

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Quote from: el_rlee on October 16, 2019, 01:48:46 AM

Also where does the strong contango come from? The high cost of storing Bitcoin?

I'm going to sound like an utter idiot here, but what is a contango?

Also, I'm assuming the prices shown are above current market value because they're options and not actual bitcoin being sold, so it would make sense that someone is betting on a higher price in the future dates listed there....? Can't say I fully understand what Bakkt is all about, but what understanding I do have is that it's a futures/options market that offers physical delivery of bitcoin if the trader on the winning side of the contract wants it. Do I at least have that part correct?

Quote from: BitHodler on October 16, 2019, 02:28:10 AM

Utter garbage.... it's a massive disappointment---if they don't get to see some exponential volume increase in the coming months then we can confirm it being a failure. No point in defending them. Call a spade a spade.

Yeah, you'd think that if Bakkt was going to be a smashing success it would have been on fire from day one. That obviously wasn't the case. I'd like to give it some time to see if it catches on, but I have the feeling it won't.

FanEagle

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I do not really understand how this bakkt platform do operate because really, they don’t have much details on their website which make the platform not much user friendly, a user friendly platform should at least be able to help people navigate the platform without the assistance of people, and I am not sure this bakkt has the standard as much as we expected, which is why they could not even have effect on the market.

How would there be traffic if people are facing this challenge of not being able to reach them, because I have also severally tried to reach them by mail which is to no avail, till date, no response to my way and I keep wondering who the people trading there are and what qualifies them to really get the attention of the team member.

BitHodler

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Quote from: el_rlee on October 16, 2019, 01:48:46 AM

look at their trading volume... children's birthday...

Utter garbage.... it's a massive disappointment---if they don't get to see some exponential volume increase in the coming months then we can confirm it being a failure. No point in defending them. Call a spade a spade.

Quote from: el_rlee on October 16, 2019, 01:48:46 AM

Also where does the strong contango come from? The high cost of storing Bitcoin?

It comes down to their insurance fee, profit margins, and so on. I would say that the higher storage cost should provide people an incentive to withdraw their coins from that plarform.

el_rlee

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on October 15, 2019, 04:06:57 PM

us little plebs.

look at their trading volume... children's birthday...

Also where does the strong contango come from? The high cost of storing Bitcoin?

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: el_rlee on October 15, 2019, 01:14:55 PM

I would be trading in the name of a company, don't know if that qualifies as "institutional"...

i assume it depends on size and accredited investor (or similar) status, but the inner workings of bakkt are all very mysterious to us little plebs.

this is what investopedia says:

Quote from: el_rlee on October 15, 2019, 01:14:55 PM

Guess it should be the best regulated and safest exchange?

it's regulated by the CFTC and NYSDFS but i have no idea if that means the "best regulated" or "safest". i'm wary of legacy giants (like bakkt's parent company, the ICE) jumping into bitcoin custody. who knows how it'll turn out?

el_rlee

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Quote from: exstasie on October 15, 2019, 03:04:30 AM

Like avikz said, all you can do is email them. They actually don't onboard retail customers at all, that's why there's no registration function on their site. It's for institutional traders only.

Why are you interested?

I did email them, no reply so far. I would be trading in the name of a company, don't know if that qualifies as "institutional"...
I'm interested because of wanting to make profits obviously Wink

Guess it should be the best regulated and safest exchange?

exstasie

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Quote from: el_rlee on October 14, 2019, 01:54:48 PM

how would I go about and get an account with the BAKKT warehouse so I can trade including physical delivery? There's no register function on their website https://www.bakkt.com/ .

Has anybody done this? The best info I found is this: https://www.bakkt.com/publicdocs/Bakkt_Bitcoin_Futures_Workflow.pdf

How big of a pain can it be?

Would also be interested in pricing, fees for storage etc.

Wrote them an email, let's see.

Like avikz said, all you can do is email them. They actually don't onboard retail customers at all, that's why there's no registration function on their site. It's for institutional traders only.

Why are you interested?

avikz

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You can't open an account directly from the website. You need to mark an email to [email protected] and they will come back with detailed procedure for account opening. Read the medium blog written by the COO of Bakkt.

https://medium.com/bakkt-blog/the-bakkt-warehouse-is-open-for-business-14c473413c4c

There is no information given in the website regarding fess and other charges. But I am sure you will receive such documentation during the account opening. Please let us know such details!

el_rlee

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Hi all,

how would I go about and get an account with the BAKKT warehouse so I can trade including physical delivery? There's no register function on their website https://www.bakkt.com/ .

Has anybody done this? The best info I found is this: https://www.bakkt.com/publicdocs/Bakkt_Bitcoin_Futures_Workflow.pdf

How big of a pain can it be?

Would also be interested in pricing, fees for storage etc.

Wrote them an email, let's see.

Topic: Trading BAKKT with physical delivery (Read 229 times)