trezor btc addresses kyc&nokyc | Bitcointalksearch.org

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on November 19, 2022, 11:40:01 AM

Quote from: n0nce on November 18, 2022, 08:02:38 PM

If you end up choosing Sparrow, you could directly CoinJoin those KYC funds (or all funds) through Whirlpool and after they've been 'anonymized', consolidate them in one account for convenience. Instead of CoinJoin (and irrespective of wallet choice) you can also use ChipMixer for mixing.

Haven't used Sparrow's Whirlpool, yet. I'd tried in testnet, but there was nobody online apparently and it stuck. Do we have a list of upsides and downsides in comparison with JoinMarket (which also does PayJoins)?

I quickly tried it once a few months ago just to see if it's alive and it worked, but I was in a rush so I didn't further investigate; what options it has, how good the mixing is, or analyze how much it cost in the end.
Maybe worth trying that out in detail and writing a post about that, soon. When the mempool normalizes again.. Wink

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: n0nce on November 18, 2022, 08:02:38 PM

If you end up choosing Sparrow, you could directly CoinJoin those KYC funds (or all funds) through Whirlpool and after they've been 'anonymized', consolidate them in one account for convenience. Instead of CoinJoin (and irrespective of wallet choice) you can also use ChipMixer for mixing.

Haven't used Sparrow's Whirlpool, yet. I'd tried in testnet, but there was nobody online apparently and it stuck. Do we have a list of upsides and downsides in comparison with JoinMarket (which also does PayJoins)?

Quote from: Pmalek on November 19, 2022, 03:33:46 AM

Since those coins originate from centralized services where KYC was performed, I wonder how they would feel if you eventually use the same exchanges and deposited into them bitcoins that were mixed or went through coinjoins?

You're about to be asked for more KYC, I guess? Wasn't Coinbase asking for your bank transactions of the past few months once?

Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on November 19, 2022, 09:39:39 AM

Do we know which exchanges allow mixed coins and who does not?

Any KYC-friendly exchange is likely to treat bitcoin as non-fungible.

Pmalek

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on November 19, 2022, 09:39:39 AM

Do we know which exchanges allow mixed coins and who does not?

Those who allow it today might start disallowing mixers and coinjoins tomorrow. It's a double-edged sword. It will always be their site and their rules.

- We know that Gemini has blocked coins that came from Wasabi.
- We know that Paxos doesn't like bitcoin mixing.
- We know that Binance froze withdrawals of coins that also had a connection with Wasabi. Some more info about Binance not appreciating the use of Wasabi.

You should also check out [Blacklist] of unreliable, 'taint proclaiming' Bitcoin services / exchanges for a list of other centralized services that don't like people who are protecting their privacy.

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o

Quote from: jackg on November 17, 2022, 10:01:32 AM

Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on November 17, 2022, 09:09:52 AM

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:54:27 AM

Luckily they have never been mixed.

You can also consider the KYC coin to mix using a mixer and send them to a totally new wallet. The none KYC coin can be mixed using a mixer too and send to the same wallet. In both cases, the mixer is going to break the connection for you and you can have all your coins in one wallet.

Depending on how exchanges track mixer usage, they might be able to know if you've used a mixer with funds bought from them.

There are risk in mixing but the best course of action is to avoid centralized exchanges. The true benefit we all will enjoy when we will value the decentralized exchanges and limit us from using the centralized system. They will then send offers to user to use their exchange and will become more flexible.

Do we know which exchanges allow mixed coins and who does not?

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: Pmalek on November 19, 2022, 03:33:46 AM

Quote from: n0nce on November 18, 2022, 08:02:38 PM

If you end up choosing Sparrow, you could directly CoinJoin those KYC funds (or all funds) through Whirlpool and after they've been 'anonymized', consolidate them in one account for convenience. Instead of CoinJoin (and irrespective of wallet choice) you can also use ChipMixer for mixing.

Since those coins originate from centralized services where KYC was performed, I wonder how they would feel if you eventually use the same exchanges and deposited into them bitcoins that were mixed or went through coinjoins? We know that some CEXs don't like coins that are connected with gambling activities and surely they wouldn't like not knowing the history of your bitcoin either. I remember a post from a few months ago where one person said he used Wasabi's new and improved coinjoin but had his account blocked by Gemini I think.

True; not mixing is not a solution, either, though..
In my opinion: either send those funds back to the exchange, sell for fiat and buy your Bitcoin back on Bisq. That way, 'officially' you don't own any BTC anymore and you can provably show that you 'sold it all'.
Second option: if you (have to) declare Bitcoin holdings anyway, for instance, simply mix those coins and you will be able to spend them without worrying about being traced through your KYC data. If you want to sell, just use Bisq. Simply stop using centralized exchanges.

Quote from: SFR10 on November 19, 2022, 06:32:07 AM

In Trezor Suite we can create a second account ^{[IIRC, the limit is 10]} under different derivation paths ^[screenshot].

That's very good to know!

SFR10

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Quote from: n0nce on November 18, 2022, 08:02:38 PM

One is using a second 'account' (using a different derivation path), and the second is having a whole separate wallet through a passphrase.
In both cases, you end up with separate wallets in the GUI (I'd recommend Electrum or Sparrow - Trezor Suite probably doesn't offer either method)

In Trezor Suite we can create a second account ^{[IIRC, the limit is 10]} under different derivation paths ^[screenshot], but we can't modify them and there's also an option for creating hidden wallets with a passphrase: Passphrases and hidden wallets

Pmalek

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Quote from: n0nce on November 18, 2022, 08:02:38 PM

If you end up choosing Sparrow, you could directly CoinJoin those KYC funds (or all funds) through Whirlpool and after they've been 'anonymized', consolidate them in one account for convenience. Instead of CoinJoin (and irrespective of wallet choice) you can also use ChipMixer for mixing.

Since those coins originate from centralized services where KYC was performed, I wonder how they would feel if you eventually use the same exchanges and deposited into them bitcoins that were mixed or went through coinjoins? We know that some CEXs don't like coins that are connected with gambling activities and surely they wouldn't like not knowing the history of your bitcoin either. I remember a post from a few months ago where one person said he used Wasabi's new and improved coinjoin but had his account blocked by Gemini I think.

Quote from: n0nce on November 18, 2022, 08:02:38 PM

A third option would be using coin control (available in Trezor Suite) and manually keeping track of which UTXOs (and after spending them, change outputs) have KYC attached and which don't. It's much more risky, because you can absolutely fuck up when using this;

True, but like you said, the chances to make mistakes are too big and it's not worth it. It's easy to create two separate wallets, and you don't have to worry about which UTXO is KYC-ed and which isn't.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

You basically have 2 safe options to separate funds within the same wallet.

One is using a second 'account' (using a different derivation path), and the second is having a whole separate wallet through a passphrase.
In both cases, you end up with separate wallets in the GUI (I'd recommend Electrum or Sparrow - Trezor Suite probably doesn't offer either method) and you can't really link your KYC and non-KYC UTXOs by accident.

If you end up choosing Sparrow, you could directly CoinJoin those KYC funds (or all funds) through Whirlpool and after they've been 'anonymized', consolidate them in one account for convenience. Instead of CoinJoin (and irrespective of wallet choice) you can also use ChipMixer for mixing.

A third option would be using coin control (available in Trezor Suite) and manually keeping track of which UTXOs (and after spending them, change outputs) have KYC attached and which don't. It's much more risky, because you can absolutely fuck up when using this; only upside would be that it's supported by Trezor's own client. I wouldn't recommend that, though.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Pmalek on November 18, 2022, 02:33:27 PM

OP doesn't need to generate two different seed words.

My bad. Two wallets can come from the same seed phrase, but from different paths (haven't tested it in Trezor, though). You can also make it come from the same path, but each with a different passphrase (even though that does include security concerns).

Quote from: Pmalek on November 18, 2022, 02:33:27 PM

If OP has performed KYC on multiple exchanges, he can even create multiple accounts for KYC-ed bitcoins to separate the coins that originate from CEX #1 from those coming from CEX#2, etc.

My suggestion to the OP is: Mix them. Have just one wallet, and name each coin using the label option accordingly (mixing_1, mixing_2 etc.).

Pmalek

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on November 17, 2022, 10:18:43 AM

Multiple seeds are inevitable if you choose to have 2 wallets.

OP doesn't need to generate two different seed phrases. I am sure Trezor Suite functions similarly to Ledger Live, which allows you to create multiple accounts for the same coin and with the same seed. His first bitcoin account could only be used with KYC-ed coins, while the second one is only for non-KYC-ed bitcoins. If OP has performed KYC on multiple exchanges, he can even create multiple accounts for KYC-ed bitcoins to separate the coins that originate from CEX #1 from those coming from CEX#2, etc.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:15:31 AM

Can someone tell me if it is acceptable to store KYC bitcoin and non kyc bitcoin on the same trezor 1 device?

I would be using a seperate account within the same device but will this provide total seperation of these differently acquired coins

It's your device so you can do whatever you want with it.
Trezor has the option of creating multiple addresses, but you can also cerate separate accounts and name them differently, or even better you can create additional hidden wallet with a passphrase.
This way you won't have any connections between addresses, but remember to make appropriate labels and do good address management.

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:24:07 AM

So seperate accounts within the device can all be linked to the device ?

No, if you did what I said previously.

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:54:27 AM

Luckily they have never been mixed.

Mixing is not a bad thing.
It just hides your past activity and connection with your real identity.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:54:27 AM

Im just looking at my options and trying to avoid multiple seeds/ paswords etc

Multiple seeds are inevitable if you choose to have 2 wallets. If you choose to mix the KYC-ed coins (using a mixer such as that one in my signature), you can merge them all into one wallet, because the mixer will break the connection of your KYC-ed coins.

Quote from: jackg on November 17, 2022, 10:01:32 AM

Depending on how exchanges track mixer usage, they might be able to know if you've used a mixer with funds bought from them.

Which doesn't make a difference. They can't force you do something once you've chosen to mix them.

jackg

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Quote from: BitcoinGirl.Club on November 17, 2022, 09:09:52 AM

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:54:27 AM

Luckily they have never been mixed.

You can also consider the KYC coin to mix using a mixer and send them to a totally new wallet. The none KYC coin can be mixed using a mixer too and send to the same wallet. In both cases, the mixer is going to break the connection for you and you can have all your coins in one wallet.

Depending on how exchanges track mixer usage, they might be able to know if you've used a mixer with funds bought from them.

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:24:07 AM

Thanks

So seperate accounts within the device can all be linked to the device ?

They can't directly be linked but there might be ways to link them based on other information such as your ip (if you use electrum with the trezor especially) or if funds move between them. If you're using trezor suite, you might want to consider using tor to hide your identity (it's built in but might make the wallet sync a bit slower).

The different accounts shouldn't be traceable if you just do a bit extra diligence on using them -and remember which is which.

BitcoinGirl.Club

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Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:54:27 AM

Luckily they have never been mixed.

You can also consider the KYC coin to mix using a mixer and send them to a totally new wallet. The none KYC coin can be mixed using a mixer too and send to the same wallet. In both cases, the mixer is going to break the connection for you and you can have all your coins in one wallet.

Pippylong20

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Thanks Blackhat

Luckily they have never been mixed. Im just looking at my options and trying to avoid multiple seeds/ paswords etc

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:24:07 AM

So seperate accounts within the device can all be linked to the device ?

Not if you're cautious. You can have two wallets. One that contains the KYC-ed coins, and one that contains the non-KYC-ed coins. As long as you don't send coins from one wallet to the other and spend KYC-ed and non-KYC-ed coins together, you don't link "separate accounts" or to be more technically correct "separate wallets".

Quote from: ?? on ??

Cold storage only . possibly sell some at next ATH. I just want to be certain that the KYC is totally unconnected to the No KYC coins

Then do what I said. Two wallets. To improve privacy, and to get rid of KYC-cy, mix the KYC-ed coins.

Pippylong20

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Thanks

So seperate accounts within the device can all be linked to the device ?

Thanks

Cold storage only . possibly sell some at next ATH. I just want to be certain that the KYC is totally unconnected to the No KYC coins

and I believe that the only way to do that is to use two seperate devices. But if each account has its own addresses and I use seperate addresses every time

Then are yousaying that the public key links all addresses from the device ?

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:15:31 AM

Can someone tell me if it is acceptable

Acceptable by who? Yourself? The merchants you'll make transactions with? Centralized exchanges? Government? Secondly, storing the coins in which manner? The same wallet? Do you imply that outsiders can acknowledge that you're keeping your KYC-ed and non-KYC-ed coins together?

It is totally possible, and totally acceptable for all those entities are far as I'm concerned, to merge KYC-ed and non-KYC-ed together. The problem is that you're about to harm your privacy that way. For example, if you make a transaction in which you spend two outputs, one KYC-ed and one non-KYC-ed, you're making it clear to the exchange that has identified you, that the non-KYC-ed output is yours.

mocacinno

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Quote from: Pippylong20 on November 17, 2022, 08:15:31 AM

Hi

Can someone tell me if it is acceptable to store KYC bitcoin and non kyc bitcoin on the same trezor 1 device?

I would be using a seperate account within the same device but will this provide total seperation of these differently acquired coins

Many Thanks

Depends on your usecase.... I would never do this, but maybe somebody else won't care..
If you collect unspent outputs coming from kyc and no-kyc sources in the same wallet, you'll either combine those outputs sooner or later, or you'll have to pay a lot of attention to coin control.

Pippylong20

newbie

Activity: 9

Merit: 9

Hi

Can someone tell me if it is acceptable to store KYC bitcoin and non kyc bitcoin on the same trezor 1 device?

I would be using a seperate account within the same device but will this provide total seperation of these differently acquired coins

Many Thanks

Topic: trezor btc addresses kyc&nokyc (Read 186 times)