Topic: Trump Threatens To Keep Government Closed "For Months Or years" (Read 654 times)

You think very clearly. In a practical sense, there is no problem with the USA issuing "Work Visas" that do not lead to citizenship.

Unfortunately, "nothing is what it seems." The entire dispute over immigration and allegation immigration in the USA is over the Democrat's desire to have more immigrants quickly become citizens because they believe these will largely be Democratic voters.

It has nothing then to do with the welfare of the people, or the best interests of the country, only the power interest of a selfish political group.

Right. You know, I wonder if making labor-residencies more mainstream would help. America has lost a certain edge by not having a low-cost manufacturing/production sector. In Florida, (and many other places), farms are allowed to hire masses of immigrants at below minimum wage salaries and in exchange host and feed them. However this practice is much more limited than it could be. These farms, as I understand, lack transparency are full of unethical practices. I wonder just how difficult it would be to scale-up this system, regulate it, and provide a safety zone where they could work, get an education, and (they or their children) could fully immigrate after many years.

Could this even work without inadvertently creating a caste system?
What would be a controllable number of non-U.S. citizens? millions? 10s of millions?

It is basically indentured servitude in practice, but actually, as long as they are not abused... It seems like a better idea than leaving good people stranded or letting immigration be such a free-for-all.

thanks! I'm not going to invest a huge sum of time for this answer, however I am very curious what the social network of these Execs and Trump look like.

The majority of immigrants of the type we are discussing come over the southern border and have never had a passport in their life. The are recently some refugees, such as from Syria, who also do not have passports, or even identity cards.

This is for the prototypes:

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-awards-contracts-border-wall-prototypes


Doesn't mean any of these would build the actual wall.

The majority of immigrants just fly in apparently. The primary question about the wall is: Which construction company is going to build it?

It's rather serendipitous that a construction and real estate mogul wants to do a construction project after he gets in office.

Anybody know what company or companies are lined up to build this thing?

"I don't think federal employees are getting enough love and support, in these tough times, we want to extend the offer of a donation of medical cannabis to any federal worker affected by the shutdown..."


Legal cannabis website offered federal workers free marijuana during government shutdown




Now we need to even make sure we are not supporting the TSA when we buy our legal cannabis.

We don't really need government... except for one thing. Government is the major way the banking Ponzi keeps on going. Without the banking Ponzi, the way money works would change significantly. It's going to happen. All Ponzi's crash. Do it now, while the crash is only worse than the Great Depression... rather than destroying the nation for good. Cut Government!


How the Shutdown Shows Us Exactly Where to Start Cutting Government

Hey, nothing wrong with some beer money!

“In a short while, I will sign a bill to reopen our federal government for three weeks until Feb.15,” Trump said, confirming details first reported by the Drudge Report and subsequently confirmed by other media outlets. He said that he will ensure federal employees will receive back pay “very quickly.”


Kill Bill Volume 2 - Bill's Death (Ending Scene)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kf0D_X7uFE

^^^ Well, what's wrong with that?

Hundreds of TSA employees are calling out sick amid shutdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIl3cvv5vU

 

Well as a slight consolation prize by caving in first he put the pressure on the Democrats, you said you won't do Jack unless government opens.
Trump you have three weeks and in "Trump Voice"
(YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU DON'T DO AS YOU PROMISED DEMOCRATS AND MAKE A DEAL I WILL SHUTDOWN THIS GOVERNMENT AGAIN FOR ANOTHER MONTH)

And he may not go back on it this time, he gave the government employees a break and some cash to well deal with the next month. If they can't budget now he doesn't care at this point, although he could always go the path of declaring a national emergency in February over another shutdown.

Yes the world is quite convenient when you can just dismiss facts for opinions. For anyone who thinks he has an excuse.... https://www.virustotal.com

I don't see him shutting down government in 3 weeks time. Thats just him posturing and appeasing his base whilst he tries figuring out a way out of a mess he created himself. I bet you everything that he won't get a dime from congress, and he won't shut down government. He is more likely to abuse emergency powers and that won't get him the wall.


I didn't bother clicking that, but the man is a known liar and his words are meaningless. He vowed never to open government without  the wall money.

Actually again you talk a lot about things you aren't paying very close attention to. It was actually on the table early on remember? Of course not your mind is a giant leftist memory hole.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/26/trump-daca-deal-is-a-dream-come-true-for-democrats-commentary.html

CNBC vanilla toast enough for you or is that a secret neonazi rightwing rag? Frankly I would have been happy if they took it because those people are already here and we could move on and stop the flow. Of course that wasn't good enough. It never is. They even admit it themselves, their entire strategy since day one has been to obstruct.

This guy is pretty far left, even of you, and he has (shockingly) a way better grasp on the dynamics of this than you. Of course he lives here, you just pretend to know whats going on and judge from afar.

Don't be overly dramatic, immigration reform was never on the fucking table anyways.  The dems and GOP have been fighting over immigration for decades and it isn't getting fixed weather Trump try's to change the narrative or not.

The hard right isn't going to let Trump give the democrats the dreamers or TPS, they wouldn't give it to him when he was getting 25b for the wall.  Trump reportedly was listening to Kushner who told him to dig in and he could get the senate dems to split from Chuck to get the 5.7b passed.

I will just leave this right here: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-26/was-no-way-concession-trump-vows-move-forward-wall-21-days-if-no-deal

Democrats don't even realize that Trump has shifted the overton window on this entire issue.  Immigration reform is not on the table at all.  Amnesty is not on the table at all, not even for dreamers.  The entire debate is "border wall" vs "really tight border security" which would be even more effective than a wall. 

That is an invisible win for Trump.

I don't think I invented anything:

---

Ok.


This is not going to strengthen Trump's negotiating position at all. Dems were ready to give him $5.7 billion for border security but not for the wall. If border security and immigration were of such importance he could have taken it and called it a win.

Yes, why remember the details when you can just invent them? Yes, what a cave getting those workers paid! A stronger man would have let them be held hostage right? You are incapable of addressing the conflict in your own logic. This shit isn't over, so your "fact" is nothing of the sort as usual. A lot of people are being hurt by this frivolous attitude toward border security and immigration, a lot more than missing a paycheck. None of this would even be necessary if the Democrats were not intent on making this impossible by refusing to negotiate over it.

My "rambling" refers to your own theory that GOP strategically lost the election to trap dems into some grand plan of theirs. I don't recall all the details, sorry. Me stating the fact that Trump caved is not a victory for me personally in any way. I didn't feel the shutdown at all. It's still stupid though on many levels so I'm happy it's over. The federal workers shouldn't have been subjected to this to begin with so there is nothing and no one to praise.

Just when I was starting to have hope...


Drudge Report: Shutdown Deal Reached; Government to Reopen Temporarily




Watch the videos at the site.

You preach about ego and how much you care for the workers, but the first thing you do is leap to declare victory, gloating over a temp fix and punishing the act, not praise the act of making sure the workers got paid. Not sure what your rambling about temporary measures fooling the left is about, but I am sure it is based on lots of factual information as usual. 

For that to happen he would need to overcome his ego and this shutdown failure seems to be just the latest of many indications that he can't. As soon as "Nancy" took away his SOTU speech he folded. I wouldn't be surprised if he's gonna attempt that speech now and perhaps he even truly believes that his imaginary "art of the deal" / "apprentice" persona will be able to browbeat dems into his $5.7B plan.


Sure. And GOP losing the midterms was just a temporary measure that completely fooled the left.

I'm not declaring victory, I just happen to think that the shutdown is stupid and the wall is stupid. If Mexico wants to pay - have at it, but holding own citizens hostage over this boondoggle is borderline criminal.

Lose? I'd like to see the arguments that would cause the Supreme Court of any country to rule that a border wall could not be built on that country's border.

Nothing says he can't buy or otherwise compensate for that land, and or build on land they already control. Every inch does not need to be covered for it to improve effectiveness. It still channels people through more predictable routes by limiting options. He would be well within his authority doing any of this.

This is just a CR, so a full budget will be coming soon. I still think he might get the $1.6 billion (and call it a massive victory). The $5.7 billion is very unlikely now, since the inertia is now strongly against him, and he's demonstrated a lack of willingness to follow through. I predict that there will not be another shutdown in 3 weeks.

I'm disappointed it ended so soon. Things were just starting to heat up.

I'm constantly shocked and how incompetent Trump's advisors must be. He could have won this if he'd been willing to endure major disasters and widespread outcry, but clearly he wasn't anywhere near so willing, since he broke at almost the first sign of trouble. So it's now clear that he had no strategy for winning when he went into this. I get the sense that he's surrounded by the sort of energetic but unrealistic ideologues you see on eg. /r/The_Donald, plus a handful of establishment neocons who he only sometimes listens to. I kind of like Trump - his policy instincts are better than most politicians, and he's unusually willing to buck the establishment -, so it's disappointing that his administration is such a mess.

If I were him and had similar values as he does, I'd fire basically my whole staff, replace them with people from the Heritage Foundation, tell them to figure out a way to get a wall built and make me look good, and then let them do 99% of the work from there. Then he'd have a functioning administration and he'd probably end up getting his wall, since he'd have actually-competent people working on it. Right now he's clearly in way over his head and surrounded by people who are either trying to undermine him or loyal-but-incompetent.


This is the kind of overly-optimistic advice he should not be believing...

If he just had to move military to the border or something like that, he might get away with it. But in order to build a wall, he has to confiscate private property, and that's never going to stand. Every property-owner is going to sue Trump, and if even one of those many courts orders that construction be stopped, it's stopped. Furthermore, a president lost a very similar case  in the Supreme Court previously: In order to fight a war more effectively, a president tried to confiscate steel factories, but was prevented.

So if he tries doing it via national emergency, the courts will stop him near-immediately, it'll be stuck in legal proceedings for years, and at the end he'd probably still lose. Though even if he knows this, he might still try it so that he can say "well, I tried everything I can to build the wall".

As usual you like to pretend up and down you know about American politics but you are completely ignorant of its inner workings and our laws. The reason he has emergency authority to build a wall is because it falls quite clearly under national security grounds, and most importantly defense of the nations sovereign borders. As far as executive authority goes, there aren't many more established than this one. All your fantasizing about force-feeding the nation your horse shit that no one can prove using actual science is not even in the same hemisphere of authority.

The democrats have been in control, for a long time, and their policies failed miserably. Now the adults are here to clean up the mess. The least the left can do is step aside while we fix the problems they caused, ofc they prefer to have their own reality rather than share one with everyone else.

Agreed, Trump should absolutely do this, then when a democratic president is elected in the future He/She can declare an emergency on climate change and build solar plants around the country and remove the coal industry from America.  He/She could then even build hundreds of state run electric car manufactures and give them away to drive the auto industry out of business in the name of national security!

I love how short sighted the GOP is being on the wall, it's just like going nuclear on SCOTUS nominees.  Eventually the democrats will control the white house and senate they will jam the most liberal judges they can find on the bench when they get the chance.

McConnell has the option to go nuclear on appropriations bills, but it's not even an option and NO ONE is even talking about it because he knows how stupid it would be in the long run.

I'm also with you, Trump was in the right decision. But here is the thing comes up in my mind, I don't know but I find this funny. I can imagine how much Trump hates Mexico and I think there's a personal issue he has trouble with the people of Mexico. He is trying to build walls to make Mexico down in economics. I think Trump had a business in Mexico and he wasn't pleased. We don't know the whole story but there's a big chance why this president is obsessed with building that wall.

I hear something about that if congress still won't fund the wall negotiating in the 3 week temporary gov't reopening, that Trump is going to declare a national emergency and use his executive power to build the wall without congress..

Try to find some sources..
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/24/politics/trump-border-wall-emergency-draft/index.html


I support Trump to build the wall..

Amazing how quick he left is to jerk itself off, never once double checking their information before stroking it in public. At least children aren't getting death threats over this one though. This was a temporary measure likely aimed at getting workers paid. It lasts 3 weeks. That is it. You can stop declaring victory now.

Well, Trump caved yesterday, with $0 for the wall. It's not over yet but I find it hard to believe that he can get anything now that his bluff's been called.

The IRS is the private collection arm of the private bank known as The Federal Reserve anyway, so it is not part of the government to be shut down.

The IRS is open through the Federal shutdown.  It fiscally would not make sense to cut off your revenue while you are having a financial crisis.  Definitely give this an A for creativity though. 

Is this because he is demanding funds to build a Wall that was going to be paid by Mexico to keep their own people imprisoned? Could congress do something to make things move again despite Trump's decision?

We used to have a moat, so to speak. The Rio Grande was an actual pretty good river. Then against some of our agreements with them, the Mexicans damned it up and downstream, it became just a trickle or in many places, a dry stream bed.

Hence, illegal Mexicans crossing over are no longer called "wetbacks."

I would donate to a gofundme page to hire Aquaman to patrol the moat!!!  I would also support making ladders illegal to help border security, anyone caught with a ladder anywhere in the USA should be executed on sight.

Why doesn't trump just build an invisible wall?  I am sure he knows more than anyone about invisible walls, imagine how beautiful and effective it would be!

I want to see what happens when in february the food stamps will run out, will they destroy the US for a wall?

I've been collecting leeches for a while now. I figure when we slip back into feudalism, the one with the most leeches gets to be the doctor. I'd be damn good at feudalism, so I'm excited! The people of this forum could probably create a pretty decent fiefdom if we put our heads together. We just need a handful of engineers, a handful of the hardcore survival people, we've got the agriculture fellas, and someone to help dig the moat.

(post is sarcasm and jab at government, not off topic rambling. The invitation is real though, lets dig a moat!)

A fair number of dem lawmakers want to impeach trump ASAP, the rest want to push Trump through the meat grinder nice and slow.  It what world does it makes sense for the democrats to give Trump a $5 billion dollar re-election gift...  Trump couldn't even get any wall funding when both the house and senate were in his control for 2 years, people think the dems who now control the house are going to give him what his own fucking party wouldn't, for nothing???

I think the dems should offer him $75 billion for the wall for DACA and his resignation, haha!

Trump literally has no leverage left, he is desperate for an out he can claim as a win here.  The dems look so much more reasonable in this case (and polling confirms that) by offering to fund the other depts and a CR for DHS while negotiations continue on "border security".

Honestly this won't go on for months or years, Trump will do what he always does when he loses and claim it as a victory somehow.  I for 1 am extremely interested to see how he twists reality this time, it's always interesting to see him re-write history in real time!  Conway is already out in front calling this a high tech wall, dems will let him fix some existing fencing (which Trump will claim is hundreds of miles of new fencing) and give him a bunch of DHS money for smart security, Trump will say it's his idea and that his smart wall is better, stronger and more beautiful than steel or concrete and that the American drone industry is coming back after having left the country under Obama.

Ironically IMO the one who will feel the most political pressure the longer this goes on will be the dude saying absolutely nothing right now...  Yurtle the Turtle has 22 senators up for re-election in 2020... The farmers not getting tariff relief payments or subsidies etc right now are going to put a lot of pressure eventually on their senators to get all the agencies funded (except DHS if they really want to have a pissing contest over a wall).

That is the brilliance of Trumps strategy I find is repeated over and over again, and it is easy to miss if you don't look close. You said people attribute the shutdown to him, and it could be ammo against him in the future. You also said you liked the idea of people seeing the world doesn't end just because the government is shut down, because as you pointed out it conditions people to the concept that the world doesn't burst into flames if we don't have mommy and daddy government everywhere. If the dems want to use this as ammo against him, they are going to have to consistently remind people of how they don't need all the excessive entitlement programs they are trying to push

In effect they have to undermine their own narrative to take that specific hit on him.  It reminds me of the time the NY police went on strike a few years back, responding only to serious emergencies, and literally nothing eventful happened and crime actually dropped. They basically just made a case that most of them aren't even needed xD

Very good, this seems to be decentralized, and closing the government is an implicit goal of Bitcoin.
So let him give it a try, this is not bad for us.
Of course, I am sure he dare not do this, Trump has always just complained.

I'd love to see the democrats not flinch at all and retract offer of all additional funding. Keep the government shut down until 2020, that'd be nice.

I think one side will cave before the end of February once federal employees really stop receiving paychecks and people don't receive their anticipated tax refunds. Probably Trump will be the one to cave (likely accepting the original $1.6 billion and calling it a win), since polling shows that most people attribute the shutdown to him. If Trump can resist the crushing political pressure for several months, Democrats might eventually give in, but the whole event could provide them with effective political ammunition against Trump even as far into the future as 2020.

I like the shutdown because it makes people think, "The government has been (partially) shut down for a long time, but the sky hasn't fallen. Maybe we can shrink government permanently." So I hope it stays shut down as long as possible.

There's also the much more meaningful debt ceiling deadline in March which Trump could try blocking, if the dispute lasts that long.

north america(usa) is becoming wild west again

Does this mean that we won't have to pay income taxes? We need to sock away money in a trust that we would normally pay in income taxes. This way we will have it when government comes back on line... have it in a way that the IRS can't get it.

You know, if the IRS demands payment for past debts, they will write a lot of it off if you don't have it, and will accept easy payments to get you to keep on paying. Money that sits in the right kind of trust can't be taxed by the IRS.


Trump Threatens To Keep Government Closed "For Months Or years"