Understanding Whales and How Price Is Affected. I need someone who understands

Ayers

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Quote from: el kaka22 on November 13, 2022, 05:33:02 AM

Of course manipulation by whales is happening and it is always "possible", but at the same time is it really that much possible for someone to pump and dump bitcoin? Unless they have tens of billions of dollars (Elon) then I am sure that not that many people would care. Look at Warren Buffet, dude is one of the richest in the world and he says he doesn't like bitcoin and the price doesn't change because of that, why would it change because of anything else?

I am guessing that people could do it with low level coins, the stuff that has very low volume and liquidity, but that is about it. They can do that with stocks too, go ahead and buy some pink slips and you could increase the price of it by a big margin.

I still believe whales can manipulate bitcoin, the market is very vulnerable just one big FUD is enough to manipulate the market let alone use money to manipulate. They can't manipulate for too long but enough to make a profit for them, Elon just tweeted that Tesla accepted bitcoin and the market reacted very quickly and when he announced that they don't support bitcoin it immediately dropped.

The stock market still has manipulation but not as much as cryptocurrencies, simply because it is regulated by the authorities, if any manipulation is detected, they should be caught immediately and held accountable, unlike cryptocurrencies, we are free here.

o48o

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Quote from: MikeGr on November 09, 2022, 08:57:33 AM

-cut-
Any clarification will be appreciated.

Where have you been trading exactly? Because it doesn't seem like you are familiar of Buy and Sell wall liquidity. Without knowing about liquidity too your examples are just random numbers as everything about that is based on liquidity of those buy and sell walls. Also volume can be faked without liquidity at least in CEX:es but that's another story.

Technique you are describing artificially manipulating price by owning most of the coins is often used in pump & dump scams, that's outlawed in many regulated exchanges and can get your account frozen.

If you indeed are not familiar with the concept here's some reading https://phemex.com/academy/what-are-buy-walls-and-sell-walls

el kaka22

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Of course manipulation by whales is happening and it is always "possible", but at the same time is it really that much possible for someone to pump and dump bitcoin? Unless they have tens of billions of dollars (Elon) then I am sure that not that many people would care. Look at Warren Buffet, dude is one of the richest in the world and he says he doesn't like bitcoin and the price doesn't change because of that, why would it change because of anything else?

I am guessing that people could do it with low level coins, the stuff that has very low volume and liquidity, but that is about it. They can do that with stocks too, go ahead and buy some pink slips and you could increase the price of it by a big margin.

Antonas1

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Quote from: MikeGr on November 10, 2022, 07:27:42 AM

~snip~
Is this true, or do I not actually buy at $0.50, even though it is listed as $0.50. But my act of buying forces the price to go to $1. So I'm still buying at $1? But that wouldn't make sense because
if someone else bought it for sure, they would be buying at $0.50. ~snip~

In this case, what happens is:
When you sell tokens at $1 for 1000 tokens, other people who have the same tokens panic, and sell theirs too, bringing the price down to $0.5.
When you buy back those tokens at $0.5 (for 1000 tokens) you only spend half of your profit, which is $500. And yes, you have a $500 profit in your wallet.
But the price won't go up just because you buy it back; it takes other buyers to panic buying, so the offer goes high, and bring it back to $1 per token.

Findingnemo

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Quote from: MikeGr on November 10, 2022, 07:27:42 AM

Thanks for the input.

So but what I'm still not sure is.

Simply with the example I gave, I know for sure that if I sell the price will fall significantly.

So if I buy back the moment I sell, I buy it cheaper?

For example:

Coin value is $1 because I have a 1000 coins. Selling now would mean 1000x$1=$1000.
Coin value becomes $0.50 because I sold 1000 coins. Buying immediately after my sell would mean 1000x$0.50=$500. That would instantly make me $500 better off.

Is this true, or do I not actually buy at $0.50, even though it is listed as $0.50. But my act of buying forces the price to go to $1. So I'm still buying at $1? But that wouldn't make sense because
if someone else bought it for sure, they would be buying at $0.50. So this does mean dumping and buying immediately would give me positive result($500 profit in this example). It sounds too good to be true.

Yes it works in the way as you mentioned but only if there are two holders one is you and other is someone else and both are desperately running one after another but in real world there are millions of active traders and also even for the cheap shitcoins the volumes are in millions so you need to take risk with few millions to influence the price and other small traders may also can use the circumstances to make profit.

MikeGr

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Thanks for the input.

So but what I'm still not sure is.

Simply with the example I gave, I know for sure that if I sell the price will fall significantly.

So if I buy back the moment I sell, I buy it cheaper?

For example:

Coin value is $1 because I have a 1000 coins. Selling now would mean 1000x$1=$1000.
Coin value becomes $0.50 because I sold 1000 coins. Buying immediately after my sell would mean 1000x$0.50=$500. That would instantly make me $500 better off.

Is this true, or do I not actually buy at $0.50, even though it is listed as $0.50. But my act of buying forces the price to go to $1. So I'm still buying at $1? But that wouldn't make sense because
if someone else bought it for sure, they would be buying at $0.50. So this does mean dumping and buying immediately would give me positive result($500 profit in this example). It sounds too good to be true.

arifi19

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You can't. Because they aren't whales but manipulators.

Smack That Ace

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What you said here is true, but the problem we face is that we won't be able to tell if the coin after buying it will increase or decrease in price. If you buy at $0.50 and wait for it to rise to $1 to sell for a profit, but it falls, you will lose. Buying low and selling high is something everyone knows to make a profit, it's easy to say but not easy to practice. Not every coin drops and then rises again, there are many coins when you buy and wait for it to increase in price but it never increases, you will lose that investment forever.

Diuyen Kim

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Buying on dips may not actually be a good strategy. The most important thing is to see whether the coin has popularity. If the coin is not hot, your money may evaporate.
The next problem with buying the dip is that a realistic strategy requires more detail than "buy when the price falls." Some questions to consider are: why is it falling? and when do we sell?

sunsilk

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That's how it really goes, the law of supply and demand is the principle that's being followed by most buys and sells in the market.

Quote from: MikeGr on November 09, 2022, 08:57:33 AM

So applying the same logic would mean, a coin/token holder that can influence the price could infinitely make profit buy dumping and buying again?

Yes, it's that's how really it is. And that's why there are famous folks that are also intervening in the market and giving their thoughts even if they're not experts of economics.

It's because of the influence and reach that they can do in the market and many of their followers would follow what they would say.

btc_angela

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Your second example is the classic, buy low, sell high.

So obviously you will make money when the price goes down and then you sell it at a higher price that you bought it. And I think whales are not doing that per se, of course they want to buy at a a cheap price, but it's all about the timing here.

Better be not believed that the whales are dumping and then re-buying again, they have tons of money to begin with, they wouldn't do that for a penny, they would rather wait till the market goes down before they buy, just like what we are seeing in the market. Slowly buying at the current price and see how it goes.

Smartprofit

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To manipulate the price of altcoins, it is not enough to have a controlling stake in these coins (tokens).

It is also necessary to have a community of potential buyers of these altcoins (tokens), that is, a community of "hamsters". To sell altcoins at the right price, you need people who are willing to buy them at that price. To buy altcoins at a cheap price, you also need buyers who are depressed and desperate.

Therefore, it is advisable to start manipulations in the cryptocurrency market by creating a community in which you will be an authoritative leader. IMHO.

MikeGr

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I would really appreciate if somebody can explain this to me.

There are many altcoins, some of which might have low volume, there is a community behind it.

Each coin/token holder can dramatically effect the price of the coin with each buy or sell.

If you are lucky enough you might end up becoming a whale for such coin/token.

I've noticed when:

I buy(depending on the amount), the price than dramatically changes.
I sell(depending on the amount), the price than dramatically changes.

So for example. Let's say the coin/token price is $1 at the moment.

I sell a 1000 coin/tokens while it costs $1 per coin/token. That would give me 1000 x $1 = $1000.

After the sell, the price of the coin/token has fallen to $0.50 per coin/token. That means I influenced the price.

But what happens if I buy it back again?

So lets say I buy the 1000 coin/tokens again. Will that be 1000 x $0.50 = $500?

Because this would mean by simply dumping and immediately buying again, I would make $500 profit. Does this make sense?

What's is clear that the next person to buy after me will do so at $1.

So applying the same logic would mean, a coin/token holder that can influence the price could infinitely make profit buy dumping and buying again?

Any clarification will be appreciated.

Topic: Understanding Whales and How Price Is Affected. I need someone who understands (Read 93 times)