Unfair aspects of KYC. But KYP is here

Reid

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Quote from: dothebeats on March 04, 2020, 10:26:46 AM

KYP does not solve the issue of companies being careless with the data we provide them.

What consumers need is a transparent way of how companies treat our data, or eat least penalties severe enough for the companies in order for them to get scared should our data get leaked, sold or misused in any way or form. Provider details are usually seen on their whois, and could be followed-up on a trip to the government agencies responsible for registering them--that is if legal action is needed or whatnot.

Knowing the faces of those who run the show does not provide any guarantee that our data will not be compromised.

This explanations is like the shallow of all. Some are really deep that I could not understand it anymore.
Well, thank you for that.

First time I heard about KYP and I am still curious about how far it could go.
KYC though is something which is really scary for most of us users here specially if we are leaving our currencies in exchanges.
This is also why there are a lot of members here who always tell to not leave it for a long time in exchanges specially those who are registered to them with all the information.

Transparency and privacy. Could this two be married? I don't think so.
They cannot show how the privacy is being done. That is why it is private.
But if explained in a way that would only be understood by those who studied it like programming then not much people would care.
So how?

zasad@

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I constantly meet topics about KYC, the most useful thoughts and facts can be found in this thread

Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-kyc-is-extremely-dangerous-and-useless-5221497

charlesmichel1

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I hate KYC. This is the thing that makes exchanges examples of banks for the cryptocurrency market. Crypto is about privacy, but KYC eliminates it.
It's sad that KYC verification becomes obligatory.

thesmallgod

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I am just wondering what the customers will request as KYP. Probably some of the things they have provided on the website or a kind of paper documentation and legal information. I understand quietly well in this evolving crypto space that providers are becoming smarter and this is the reason why many of them will tell you they are registered in one country on an island that is difficult to confirm on the internet. Just the way so many scam betting site will tell you they have their license from some shithole domicile

gabbie2010

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Quote from: gantez on March 04, 2020, 07:32:11 AM

Quote from: USBitcoinServices.Com on March 03, 2020, 01:50:16 PM

The crypto community is made of smart people (...most of them) and this challenge could be achieved easily if we really care about fairness, get organized and work together on this common goal. Crypto itself is already showing fairness with the use of blockchain.

This is simply the reasonable point. The crypto world is for smart people and asking people for identity information without providing theirs first isn't the best way about it. Cryptocurrency has provided decentralized measures already so if someone wants a personal information, should also provide theirs too. That shows fairness.

In fairness most of these KYC is necessitated because of some nefarious activities perpetuated by some bad elements hiding under cryptosphere, of course without any doubt decentralization is good however it is also necessary to get some sort of information of owners of huge amount of crypto assets transansacted to ascertain it purpose whether for good or bad particularly money launderers who disguise to sponsor terrorism.

FanEagle

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You do have a good idea, but you should as well understand that there are reasons why KYC is important to Businesses. Rightfully businesses should be transparent with their customers and make them understand that they should be trusted. I don’t take interest in any business that is not transparent and keeps hiding things from their customers.

As for businesses like exchanges , they should provide information on their page about their CEO, and other Executives, and also an information about their location. If they are going to be asking customers for KYC, then they should fulfil their own part by doing these that I have mentioned. That way we can know for sure that they can be trusted to a certain level.

bitbunnny

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There are good sides and bad sides of everything, so that applies to KYC too. But the idea and intention of KYC is good and it really helps to protect users from different kind of abuse and scam and honest users don't need to fear it.
Also, we don't need to fear that KYC is violating our privacy and abuse our personal data. Some incidents are always possible but then we know who is reliable and what are the responsibilities and how you can be legaly protected.

ecnalubma

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Privacy really depends on users wether they stay anonymous in crypto space or become fully compliant with the regulations. Providing this could be a win-win situation for both parties if it’s pushed in this type of industry, all projects should undergoe in this type of process to be legally accepted not just in the government but also in the society.

shield132

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Quote from: avikz on March 03, 2020, 01:59:02 PM

In crypto market, it makes sense! Otherwise, in real world, we usually know the service providers and obtain their KYP details easily! But in crypto market, the scope is usually much larger because crypto companies usually cater to the global client base.

Most importantly, it should be mandatory for all types of ICOs, ITOs or STOs because they get funded by common mass. So KYP is particularly useful in crypto market.

But in real world, such details are usually available in the public domain. So KYP would not bring much change there!

Not only in crypto market but overall, online websites that offer some services and ask you for KYC should be somehow verified. For example imagine I found casino "blabla" and register there, it asks me for KYC to withdraw money, there should be one legit website run by government or etc that should verify whether website is actually legit or not. But there are no such services while any website can freely ask you for KYC documents. We should implement something like this not only in crypto world but on every website that asks for KYC.
Also there must be pictures and basic informations about the owners of particular websites that request KYC from you. It's 100% legitimate to know whom you send your documents.

el kaka22

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I wouldn't actually mind if all the information of these companies are public and shared with everyone on some third party organization. Think about it, if we could get headquarters, offices, information about the owners and the teams, basically all we need to know about these companies that can be proved to us, that would actually make things a lot more trustworthy.

On top of that if these companies ever gets "hacked" or whatever they are and lose everyone's money, they should be held reliable and since everyone would know who they are and where they are from and all of the information regarding the ownership, we could sue them a lot easier with people who live on the same nation as those people could file a lawsuit as well. It would make things a lot safer if you ask me.

Xampeuu

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Quote from: Tylev on March 05, 2020, 12:22:56 AM

This problem really exists today. However, it should soon be resolved by further regulating the circulation of cryptocurrency by states. We do not need to request KYC from all participants in the cryptocurrency market. Legal entities working with cryptocurrency must be registered with the relevant state bodies, and, if necessary, obtain a license for this type of activity. This will drastically reduce the level of fraud in this market. Individuals will only need to undergo a KYC check if the amount of the transaction sent exceeds one thousand euros. This complies with the FATF recommendations of June 21 last year.

right, with regulations governed by the state, then narrowing down the space for fraudsters to carry out the action. if like now, many fraud projects because there are no legal sanctions for them, so they are free to move and worsen the image of cryptocurrency, especially for new investors who have not enough knowledge

Tylev

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This problem really exists today. However, it should soon be resolved by further regulating the circulation of cryptocurrency by states. We do not need to request KYC from all participants in the cryptocurrency market. Legal entities working with cryptocurrency must be registered with the relevant state bodies, and, if necessary, obtain a license for this type of activity. This will drastically reduce the level of fraud in this market. Individuals will only need to undergo a KYC check if the amount of the transaction sent exceeds one thousand euros. This complies with the FATF recommendations of June 21 last year.

fiulpro

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Very interesting aspect at the same time one should understand that , Companies use reviews as marketin , they feel if they are on the internet and been there for a long long time they do not need to provide anything for the consumers.

Just like it's written on every Bank's note * bank is responsible for paying the user and stuff like that * I think if the companies actually starts using it in the time being it would make people more confident in them .

wheelz1200

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Quote from: USBitcoinServices.Com on March 03, 2020, 01:50:16 PM

Should the whole crypto community vote and get organized in order to ask third parties also have their own version of KYC? in this case clients should ask for KYP (Know your providers). And please if you are going to comment that the third parties already did their part by registering legally with their authorities, please think twice before mentioning that, because they did that part but only to comply with government and not to benefit customers, so far that is not benefiting the clients.

On the customer side, this one has to comply with the government and additionally with these third parties via KYC. It is unfair that third parties asking for KYC are not providing customers in the same way with the same info they request.

The crypto community is made of smart people (...most of them) and this challenge could be achieved easily if we really care about fairness, get organized and work together on this common goal. Crypto itself is already showing fairness with the use of blockchain.

We know that many people don't like the KYC process, because it is unfair, thus why the existence of privacy cryptocurrencies which will play a great work very soon with the decentralization of trust, money, internet, decentralizing anything you can imagine.

You can already do that. If they dont provide you with enough information that you feel comfortable with then dont use their service, it's really that easy. The more access you have to them, the more access they will have to you. That is the risk reward tradeoff each person needs to decide for themselves.

Harlot

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Are people just acting like they are dumb right now? Or they don't really know what they are talking about? Projects and Organizations in the crypto industry may now have the same KYC version as us customers and investors but they do provide some of their baclground enough for us to know them well. What I'm talking about is the project's whitepaper, website , amd live events this is your only way to do background checks from them to see if the company is really legit or not baside from knowing their legal permits and documentation. So really it's up to you as a investor to do background checks on your own and get to know them well.

Linkkoin

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Quote from: Philipma1957cellphone on March 03, 2020, 02:52:38 PM

Kyc is here.to stay. It is one of.many tactics used by many governments to attack all coins

Not coins, but monitoring literally all the financial transactions - so then no tax is left unpaid, and no one has a potential for money laundering. And if you make it more Orwell/Brave New World-style, if authorities are able to track all your transaction, they can check whole your life (can be by AI systems). If you buy too much of alcohol with your card, they will classify you automatically as an alcoholic and send you automatically for rehab or take your children. Or if you buy too much fast food, you will be forced to pay twice as much for healthcare.

tvplus006

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Quote from: enhu on March 04, 2020, 10:39:54 AM

There is no escape to KYC anymore even if you have the KYP, our data are compromise already the moment you submit it to any exchange you have registered. At some point you will have to use an exchange or cash out your coins and banks are asking it. Its here to stay even for the DEX that we thought aren't going to ask KYC. Not all though so there's a little hope to stay anon.

I have long refused to pass the KIK on Binance, which must be passed in order to participate in the lottery held for IEO. Although I am not a supporter of KYC, I still decided to pass verification on the exchange. Such conditions are set by the exchange to its participants, fulfilling the requirements of the government. And it's not just Binance that makes These demands , so there's nowhere to go .

enhu

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There is no escape to KYC anymore even if you have the KYP, our data are compromise already the moment you submit it to any exchange you have registered. At some point you will have to use an exchange or cash out your coins and banks are asking it. Its here to stay even for the DEX that we thought aren't going to ask KYC. Not all though so there's a little hope to stay anon.

dothebeats

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KYP does not solve the issue of companies being careless with the data we provide them.

What consumers need is a transparent way of how companies treat our data, or eat least penalties severe enough for the companies in order for them to get scared should our data get leaked, sold or misused in any way or form. Provider details are usually seen on their whois, and could be followed-up on a trip to the government agencies responsible for registering them--that is if legal action is needed or whatnot.

Knowing the faces of those who run the show does not provide any guarantee that our data will not be compromised.

gantez

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Quote from: USBitcoinServices.Com on March 03, 2020, 01:50:16 PM

The crypto community is made of smart people (...most of them) and this challenge could be achieved easily if we really care about fairness, get organized and work together on this common goal. Crypto itself is already showing fairness with the use of blockchain.

This is simply the reasonable point. The crypto world is for smart people and asking people for identity information without providing theirs first isn't the best way about it. Cryptocurrency has provided decentralized measures already so if someone wants a personal information, should also provide theirs too. That shows fairness.

Ucy

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Quote from: TravelMug on March 04, 2020, 04:40:18 AM

Quote from: Stedsm on March 03, 2020, 06:19:19 PM

You mean knowing the team behind the project by asking them for a proof of identity and/or proof of address (where the project is being established)? It's actually a great idea but will those guys hiding behind the project names itself and showing just an image of theirs on their website page actually give any real proof? Like if we ask someone from a Project X to show up with an identity proof as well as an address proof and click a selfie while holding a paper in his/her hand on which his/her name, the project's name as well as the date when clicked is written, they will need to complete all these KYP checks before anyone takes interest in their project and start investing with them?! If that becomes possible, at least 50% of these projects will disappear.

Exactly, if KYP is also going to be implemented, half of the existing project are going to disappear, because (1) they don't want to comply, (2) they are all fake.

KYC itself is very dangerous as we don't know who is handling our data, whether it's the services itself on another third party. And we have heard stories of third party selling our data, or hackers selling it underground.

It's actually a dangerous thing to give your most sensitive stuff (home Address, signature, DoB, fingerprints, Name etc) to total strangers on the internet. It is worrying to see people take risk that could have long lasting consequences.
I wonder if there are penalties to people who have custody of the identities and lose them to hackers or misuse them. And how about compensating the owners? That will most likely force companies to adopt a very safe ways of collecting and storing them... and "unqualified people" will be too afraid to demand for such sensitive information.

TravelMug

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Quote from: Stedsm on March 03, 2020, 06:19:19 PM

You mean knowing the team behind the project by asking them for a proof of identity and/or proof of address (where the project is being established)? It's actually a great idea but will those guys hiding behind the project names itself and showing just an image of theirs on their website page actually give any real proof? Like if we ask someone from a Project X to show up with an identity proof as well as an address proof and click a selfie while holding a paper in his/her hand on which his/her name, the project's name as well as the date when clicked is written, they will need to complete all these KYP checks before anyone takes interest in their project and start investing with them?! If that becomes possible, at least 50% of these projects will disappear.

Exactly, if KYP is also going to be implemented, half of the existing project are going to disappear, because (1) they don't want to comply, (2) they are all fake.

KYC itself is very dangerous as we don't know who is handling our data, whether it's the services itself on another third party. And we have heard stories of third party selling our data, or hackers selling it underground.

Darker45

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Quote from: USBitcoinServices.Com on March 03, 2020, 02:36:54 PM

Quote from: avikz on March 03, 2020, 01:59:02 PM

we usually know the service providers and obtain their KYP details easily!

How easily?

Would customers obtain their provider's passports or drivers licenses or any provider's personal ID, proof of address, bank statement, personal Social security number, on a personal level in the same way like providers get them when clients apply for KYC?

And what is the business of customers obtaining these personal information of their service providers? I mean, why do customers have to know about their service providers' passports, driver licenses, other personal IDs, proof of address, bank statements, personal security number, and so on and so forth?

In the first place, assuming regularity, these service providers are not collecting all these personal information from their users or clients for their own consumption or perusal. What are they going to do with those among themselves? They are collecting these information because a law or a policy is obliging them to do so. They need to have them because the state or any appropriate government agency for that matter might require them to submit such information anytime. In line with this, I guess they are also submitting the same set of information to these agencies.

Stedsm

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You mean knowing the team behind the project by asking them for a proof of identity and/or proof of address (where the project is being established)? It's actually a great idea but will those guys hiding behind the project names itself and showing just an image of theirs on their website page actually give any real proof? Like if we ask someone from a Project X to show up with an identity proof as well as an address proof and click a selfie while holding a paper in his/her hand on which his/her name, the project's name as well as the date when clicked is written, they will need to complete all these KYP checks before anyone takes interest in their project and start investing with them?! If that becomes possible, at least 50% of these projects will disappear.

kaya11

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So there should be another type of agency that will validate their KYP, in that case we could assume their identities are legit and are not fakes. I have seen so many projects that shows their team members and advisors but are fakes and some are somewhat doubtful. If there will be a third party who could that be? Government agencies or we justify them base on our own?

tippytoes

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Quote from: exstasie on March 03, 2020, 02:47:18 PM

Quote from: USBitcoinServices.Com on March 03, 2020, 01:50:16 PM

Should the whole crypto community vote and get organized in order to ask third parties also have their own version of KYC? in this case clients should ask for KYP (Know your providers).

It is unfair that third parties asking for KYC are not providing customers in the same way with the same info they request.

The biggest problem with KYC is we can't trust exchanges or their partners to safeguard our personal data. Customer data is not only being underhandedly sold by exchanges, but KYC data is also regularly compromised by hackers and sold on the dark web.

"KYP" does nothing to address this issue. What we really need are better privacy and data protection standards. Since current industry standards are so low, I would rather stay anonymous.

Aside from that, KYP is very hard to implement. Do you think they will comply from the request of a potential customer? I don't think so. More than likely, if you will request for KYP, you will be waiting in vain from their end, if in case they will every give you that info. So what's left here, is really being cautious to deal with these projects. A user should thoroughly do his job when it comes to submitting his KYC docs. A user is obligated sometimes because if he wants to sell his coin, and that exchange is requiring KYC, he has to fulfil the requirements. But he has choice not to, but he needs to look for other exchanges.

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Quote from: Philipma1957cellphone on March 03, 2020, 02:52:38 PM

Kyc is here.to stay.

Admit the fact that this is true. It's here to stay and no matter how many proposals that you have there, will they listen to what we want and what we need? we can stay anonymous even if they push these kinds of policies.
You have the option to remain anonymous or comply to them if you badly needed their service.

Philipma1957cellphone

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Kyc is here.to stay. It is one of.many tactics used by many governments to attack all coins

exstasie

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Quote from: USBitcoinServices.Com on March 03, 2020, 01:50:16 PM

Should the whole crypto community vote and get organized in order to ask third parties also have their own version of KYC? in this case clients should ask for KYP (Know your providers).

It is unfair that third parties asking for KYC are not providing customers in the same way with the same info they request.

The biggest problem with KYC is we can't trust exchanges or their partners to safeguard our personal data. Customer data is not only being underhandedly sold by exchanges, but KYC data is also regularly compromised by hackers and sold on the dark web.

"KYP" does nothing to address this issue. What we really need are better privacy and data protection standards. Since current industry standards are so low, I would rather stay anonymous.

USBitcoinServices.Com

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Quote from: avikz on March 03, 2020, 01:59:02 PM

we usually know the service providers and obtain their KYP details easily!

How easily?

Would customers obtain their provider's passports or drivers licenses or any provider's personal ID, proof of address, bank statement, personal Social security number, on a personal level in the same way like providers get them when clients apply for KYC?

And then we have another problem, we have to deal with the big issue that providers have among many other advantages, they have the advantage of being able to be hidden (an investor, owner or workers for example) just because they use in their organization this thing we know as a "legal" entity, company, organization.

Thus why blockchain is a peer to peer level, on the same fair level, that is why we are here to encourage others to expand decentralization, but meanwhile, we must apply KYP to the providers asking for KYC, fairness on both sides.

In order to have fair things then customers need to act in the same way as providers do, and they can do it but so far not for this purpose yet. Maybe that is the unexplored field in order to achieve fairness in the KYC area.

avikz

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In crypto market, it makes sense! Otherwise, in real world, we usually know the service providers and obtain their KYP details easily! But in crypto market, the scope is usually much larger because crypto companies usually cater to the global client base.

Most importantly, it should be mandatory for all types of ICOs, ITOs or STOs because they get funded by common mass. So KYP is particularly useful in crypto market.

But in real world, such details are usually available in the public domain. So KYP would not bring much change there!

USBitcoinServices.Com

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Should the whole crypto community vote and get organized in order to ask third parties also have their own version of KYC? in this case clients should ask for KYP (Know your providers). And please if you are going to comment that the third parties already did their part by registering legally with their authorities, please think twice before mentioning that, because they did that part but only to comply with government and not to benefit customers, so far that is not benefiting the clients.

On the customer side, this one has to comply with the government and additionally with these third parties via KYC. It is unfair that third parties asking for KYC are not providing customers in the same way with the same info they request.

The crypto community is made of smart people (...most of them) and this challenge could be achieved easily if we really care about fairness, get organized and work together on this common goal. Crypto itself is already showing fairness with the use of blockchain.

We know that many people don't like the KYC process, because it is unfair, thus why the existence of privacy cryptocurrencies which will play a great work very soon with the decentralization of trust, money, internet, decentralizing anything you can imagine.

Topic: Unfair aspects of KYC. But KYP is here (Read 234 times)