Topic: "Unfold" button in poker. Would that work? (Read 2015 times)

That's a good point. Probably first step is to define what's the desired outcome, meaning how the game should look if unfold is implemented.

I reckon if any poker site ever launched 'holdem unfold' and it turned popular, there will probably be few different tables with different unfold cost. Lower cost for small-stake tables for amateurs, where the goal is to make the game more fun, luck-based and less strategical and higher cost for more advanced players.

For the sake of discussion, lets aim for the balanced approach ('unfold' used not too often but not too rarely). I would set the goal as:

For the ~5 (active) players ring game - the desired use of unfold is once every ~5 hands.

Or maybe it's better to tackle it from the different angle and balance the cost in a way that it's attractive for the specific scenario? Example:

Players:
A- has a hand from the group 4 or higher
B- folds 3,7
C- lets ignore him

Flop: 2,6,7

Let's assume no straight/flush draws and that A knows B is not bluffing.

now set a goal as cost being low enough for B to unfold and yet high enough for A to stay in the game even if B makes a small bet afterwards?

I'm not "determined not to run simulations", it's quite the opposite. It's just I have zero experience in this kind of things and I'm not sure how to do it properly. Any suggestions welcomed.


That interesting. But there's a big risk that the betting-war would happen only very rarely, effectively making the cost just too low and (as per Light's post) causing the over-use of the unfold option.

Other thing - would it make sense for A and B to engage in betting war in the unfold betting round? Wouldn't it be better for them both to call the minimum and wait for the normal betting round (and not make free gifts to those who did not fold pre-flop)?

These raisebattle between unfolder would be awesome for players who didn't folded preflop: guess it will raise a lot players VPIP (voluntary put money in the pot) range. 

IMO that would spoil all the fun in Texas Hold'em poker. However your idea is kind of interesting, so you might try to propose a new Poker based game to be introduced in the casinos.

How about having the 'unfold' round be like any other betting round, only open to those who folded pre-flop, where the min-bet is the size of the pre-flop pot, and where everyone has to put the same in to unfold.

So players A, B, C all fold pre-flop. The pot is of size 'p'. The flop hits them all a bit, player A puts in 'p' chips to unfold, player B raises the unfold bet to '3p', player C decides not to unfold. Now it's up to player A to either call the extra 2p to match player B's 3p, give up the 'p' chips he already put in, and stay folded, or raise further. Eventually everyone has put in the same amount or dropped out of the betting, and the flop betting round can begin.

All the players who didn't fold pre-flop get to enjoy a much bigger pot thanks to A and B's betting war, at no cost to themselves other than the fact that A and B probably now have made hands.

An unfold buttom would totally change the game instead of Holdem Or Omaha it should be call UnfoldOmaha or Unfoldholdem.

If you're determined not to run simulations - you could probably get with a relatively safe value (like 1x pot) and tweak the numbers as you see games being played (you'd have to record overall usage of "unfolding" in all games played at your casino). It depends what you're looking for - if you're looking for something to spice things up - then you want to allow it to see play relatively often (ie. costing less).

That being said I'd personally run simulations to ensure that it is a viable play without being extreme on either side (never sees usage/always see usage in terms of correct value plays). 

Yes, that could work better.
The down-side is that would slow the game down even more, but in turn it would allow making more informative decisions, moving the game more towards skills rather than pure luck. Could be irritating in large tables (9-10 seats) but shouldn't cause that much of a problem for 4-6 players.

Any ideas how to determine the optimal cost of unfolding without live testing or simulations? Is 2 x pot good enough to start with?

I think it makes more sense to have a separate round of activity between the flop being shown and the flop betting round in which each folded player in turn, starting with the SB, is asked whether they want to unfold or not. Each player's answer is shown to all players, so folding the button gives you position on those who folded in earlier positions.

Agree, it cannot be too low, but you may not get a chance to unfold, unless you already know there are at least 2 players in the game, so it depends on your position at the table.


First of all, the smart player doesn't have to fold, as unfolding doesn't mean betting/raising, unless the unfolding player also raises (high) later on.
Second, unfolding could be a bluff.
Third, even if you know it's not a bluff, it still make sense to stay in the game if you have a strong hand. Example:

Players:
A- J,J calls 100 pre-flop
B- 3,8 - folds pre-flop, unfolds on the flop
C- lets ignore him, pays BB 100

Flop: 2,3,8 (no flush draw)

After the unfold, the pot increases to 600 (assuming unfold costs 2x pot): 200 from A and C + (2x200 from B) = 600

Player A's chances of winning are only 25.45%, but his chips constitute only 16.67% of the pot.
If player B bets another 100 and A calls, then the chips risked by A are 25.00%, so he still has an edge of 0.45%

And the higher the unfold cost is set, the more it pays to stay in the game even if the odds are not in your favour.

It's an interesting idea - personally I think you'd have to figure out the "cost" of unfolding. If you set it too low - people are effectively getting known cards for a small price (making it an extreme value play), if you set it too high you'll rarely see it in play and then any smart player would fold it (simply because they know you'd rarely dump a crap load of chips on a losing horse). It certainly would change the game by a huge amount - and I've no doubt someone would probably work out an edge play for it and incorporate it into strategy.

Pokerstars have made very game just about beatable for sure yep, generally though they extract maximum rake profit and make games all tight and boring, it probably would be cool to see a popular bitcoin version of this game.

that would be a totally new game , it may applied actually in the future
most players were complaining when Pokerstars launched their spin&goes , they were complaining about having a long term profit in them and also the way that it attracts recreational players and pushing them away from regular tables , after a year we can see that there are plenty of players who only play spin&goes and are making a good profit also regular games are still going on and pokerstars still #1
my point is when a new game appears you can see a lot of complaints cause people are not familiar with it

every poker game is beatable and every poker game has its own strategy , this unfold button will change the strategy but that doesn't mean that it's not good or not beatable
this unfold button may be a good bluff in low boards , also people will tend to fold their small pairs pre flop and then involve if they hit 

Thats why you'd have to pay to buy back into the pot. 

If you really want some smart poker dudes to give this some thoughts could ask over at 2+2.  But hopefully some site in bitcoin land could test this game.

No one would be mad. It's no shame to lose to straight flush
But that's poker, you can lose with AA, people get lucky on the river etc. It's not going to be drastically different with 'unfold' option. You'd just need to adjust your strategy.

idk. if you suddenly gained a straight flush after folding, you unfolded it, then others would be mad with the winner for sure.

That's a good question. I assumed (for simplicity) the player couldn't unfold if he doesn't have enough chips. But this could result in large, strategic pre-flop bets, and I'm not sure whether that would be good. Sidepots make sense, it would be just like as when player goes all-in, except in this case he doesn't make a bet (just donating to the pot) so the others don't have to call and are still in the game.


Other thought: Imagine 2 players who folded (A,B). Now, should all the players (at the table) be able to see that player unfolded as soon as he clicks the button? In such case, if player A has i.e. 4Q folded, then the flop is: 2,7,Q - he might want to unfold but only if player B doesn't do the same (as he could have 2 pairs etc.). So it makes every sense for him to wait and click in the very last second. That's definitely not desirable.

So the best thing would be to reveal all the unfolds all at once at the end of the waiting period (I assumed 5 seconds), but having to wait 5 extra seconds in (almost) every hand would noticeably slow the game down. Reducing the period to <5 sec would be just too short for anyone to make a decision.

Either way would work. Making the sidepots seems a little confusing to me at the moment, but would probably work out OK in practice.

What would be the rule if original folder who wants tu unfold dont have all the chips to cover double the pot amount?
Would he be able to unfold by creating a sidepot (up to the amount he can afford to cover with his chips) and a mainpot or he just could not unfold anymore?

You mean the same kind of disaster as when someone goes all-in after the flop? Should shoving be banned?

i do not playing poker very often so i don't know this button is necessary or not but if any some people push unfold button
and they have lost i think they will regret their decision

NO, terrible idea.
If they unfold their cards, that'll be a disaster for those people who did not fold + they did know the folded players' cards are better.

All of you trying to convince me that "unfold"="I regret cause i folded" button is something that can make game more interesting. It`s unfair simply cause in poker you PAY TO SEE next card. Where is the logic if you fold ( didn`t pay to see next card) and after next card u just press "unfold" button and that`s it? Like now I change my mind... Anyway it`s my opinion about poker and this button, if you ever make it I will try and maybe I will have differente opionion about it, for now in my head it doesn`t have logic.

How can that not fair? I think they can set the time when unfold button will be pop up? May be before the card is coming out or sometimes people want to fold before they know the card and wrong clicked it so they can unfold it back right away. There are so many possibilities to unfold it so I guess it is fair enough but actually this button is not really useful in poker game

How can you say this is unfair? It's not just your opponent who get the unfold button, you get it too, so it's totally fair.

By your logic Omaha is unfair because your opponent gets 4 hole cards instead of 2!


Well, maybe he's unfolding to bluff you off your hand. He might not have a 2 or 7 at all.

"Unfold" changes the game a lot, and maybe in a bad way, but it would be fun to try it anyway.

To be honest I think it could be funny. They would have to pay some extra just to get in the pot (like when you miss the blinds and want to get back to the game on the co). It would be great for some bluff moves. Not sure if it would work well, but I would sure like to try it.

The problem is, it takes the risk out of folding which means that that game would play waaaaaaaaaaay smaller which is bad for everyone involved.  It also adds more luck into the game, which is bad for winning players (they win less/the house rakes more).

Think about it this way: you are incentivizing people to NEVER put money in with a speculative hand.  Small pairs hoping to hit a set, draws looking to fill up.  All of those hands now have every reason to never call any bets, because why would they risk money on a draw when they can save the money and see a free card (or two) and if they hit, they can get back in.  And it doesn't matter what "fee" they have to pay, because they know that they very likely have the winning hand. 

So no, this is a very bad idea.

As well, you can bluff by unfolding. If there's the possibility of having a great hand and you fake it, you can definitely add more psychological game in there.

The game would be the same, but it would require different strategy. Just like you need to adjust your strategy to play tournament or ring game, limit or no limit game, heads up or multi player etc.


First of all you don't have to play if you don't like the idea. It's not to replace classic holdem.

Second of all, Having KK in hand and knowing there's unfold button, you could:
- Not raise 2000 preflop
- Raise more, so folded player can't afford 'unfold' even if he wants to.
- Fold, hoping at least 2 other players will carry on, then you could unfold on the flop if you're happy to.
Also, the player who unfolds doesn't know you have KK, you could have 77 as far as he knows, so it's a big risk for him to unfold at such high price.


I'm guessing starting hands would be either tight (most of the time) or very aggressive.
There's also a risk that when you fold good hand pre-flop, you may not get a chance to see the flop, if everyone else also fold (other than BB). So your position at the table is pretty important.

I find it hard to guess how would it look like in theory (without testing), it's also possible that unfolding would be very rarely used.

i doubt that it would be ok to have such button in the game as it would change it drastically and it would be a different game also it wouldnt be that interesting

i did not understand anything, can you write it in turkmen language ?

This would not work!!! And it`s nor fair to even think about that button. On very simple example:
I have two king`s and I rise 2000 chip`s.
You have 2 and 7 you fold.
.... let`s not look other player`s. So on flop there is next 3 card`s.  2, 2, 7..... So now u are stronger and now your would pay much more then 2000 chip`s. It`s funny when I even think about it. I regreted many times cause I didn`t pay much less then this amount in example but it`s poker. This unfold button is not fair then, why would anyone rise after that?  This is not good idea at all!

Best thing to do is give it a test run. Seems to me like you'd create a whole new game strategy but thats no worries. When they made zoom/rush poker the game play changed - overall the game plays tighter and aggressive.

With this unfold game it seems you'd get really strange scenarios in each hand.  Should imagine starting hands would be tight since people dont actually have to play to be involved.  Another interesting thing is that people have to focus on each hand entirely.

This could be a good or a bad idea .It would be a bad idea if the opposite person has good cards he can lose out on winnings and vica versa.Other way round it can give a nice chance for the unlucky one to save some cash.There should be a unfold button provided he has to pay some mbtc to use that service.

Thanks.

The optimal 'buy back' is yet to be decided. I used 2x pot (+possible house fee, but lets leave that for now). Example with 3 players (pre-flop) and BB of 100:

A (SB): calls
B (BB): checks
C: folds

So the total pot is 200. If, after the flop, player C wants to 'unfold' - he has to pay 2x pot so 400. But 'unfolding' doesn't mean raising, so all 3 players are now in the game, but the total pot increased to 600. And then the action continues (calling/checking/raising).


Doesn't LF use 3rd party software on their site? Are they able to significantly change the code just for one table?
Maybe I'll give them a shout.

I think it is at least worth a trial to see how it works in reality, if it is a 'flop' then at least you tried but definitely worth a shot.

well they could add it on couple tables they dont need to make whole new code from scratch
you can try emailing luckyflop admin i think he could be for that
regards.
-Katerniko1

Very interesting idea actually ive never heard this before and been around poker for years.  Players would have to buy back in after folding but how do you judge how much they have to pay to buy back in.  It would have to be judged by the people who raised the pot in order to fold them out - or if there is no raiser they'd have to pay something like BB x2.

It makes for a very interesting game maybe as people could unfold and bluff very often.  I actually really like it OP great idea, it would need to be a separate game entirely, it would not fit into normal games like fold and show did for example.

I think this needs to be talked about more.

Definitely. It works in theory (imho) but in practice it could be absolute crap. Would love to test it though.

Unlikely any site will implement it anytime soon, unless there are site owners out there who are looking for something brave and innovative that no one else has done before.

I like the idea and would like to see it implemented to have some hands on this table

what I would do is (and I am sure many would do) to fold pocket AA KK QQ JJ if I am in a position that I know that there is a bet and a flop will be seen and unfold

good luck and lets hope some operator will give it a chance to test it

this looks interesting but it should be implented somewhere so we can all try it as i cant say for sure how will that work.
regards.
-Katerniko1

Possibly, but from I've noticed most 'average' (or inexperienced) players can be classified as 'tight passive', meaning they rarely bluff and only call with good hand. Those players are likely to fold before the flop (especially when someone raises). 'Unfold' could give them a second chance, when shitty hand turns out to be not-so-shitty.

So this could work both ways. Better skilled players will still have advantage and will profit more in the long run, but the less-skilled could have potentially more winning chances in the short run.

Interesting idea, there are no fold button after flop 
Don't know if it will implement on some poker sites or not.
Not all players want to play this "funny game" but sometimes they will..!

IMO a very good idea but it would give the more skilled poker players even more advantage over the
average player.

Wouldn't it be the opposite? The more options/factors you have in the game, the more skills it takes to analyse and to make a move. Something like chess Vs. checkers.


Same as above. More factors should make it harder for organised group to operate.

I don't think this would in any way ever be a good idea. It removes a lot of skill and decision making that differentiates good poker players from good poker players. Even if you 'punish' the person unfolding by doubling the bet or pot. Also it's very easy to exploit or cheat using this especially if you have a group of friends or people you know that you'll play with and organise with. If you fold you fold, it should stay that way.

Care to describe the possible exploit you have in mind?

i believe that can be exploitable and someone can just use that method to win easily.

Cheating how?

This is not an idea to replace the current, popular variations (Holdem, Omaha), just an idea for another fun/experimental variation, just to spice the game up.

Lol.. I don't think Unfold button will be in Poker site. I think people will cheating if there is any Unfold button after the flop

That's not really feasible. Unraising would mean you have to reverse other players actions if they already reacted (called/folded). And why would you raise in the first place if you want to unraise.


The purpose of 'unfold' would be just to add additional tool, which doesn't change the principle of the game. Adding 1 extra factor could make it more interesting, currently playing holdem can often be a bit stale, especially if players are familiar with each other.

Also, 1 extra factor could make it much harder for the poker bots, and it could increase the revenue of the pokers site (if the fee is included, as per my original post).

Not sure if I will like it, maybe not.
Am curious anyway to have a try at it.

Anyway following your line there could be an unbet/unraise option after flop drop down then.

If you play poker often, you've probably heard someone joking 'how do I unfold?' or 'where's the unfold button?' after the flop.

What if there actually was one?

Would it be an interesting idea to create variation of i.e. standard no-limit Hold'em including 1 extra option: the 'Unfold button'?.
For example, it would only be active after the flop (but not after the turn or the river), there would be say 5 seconds pause after the flop to give time to 'folded' players to make decision whether they want to go back in the game or not.

To use that option, player would have to throw in 2x current pot on the table (but not as 'raise'), possibly there could also be additional fee payable directly to the house (say 0.2 of the current pot, non-refundable).

Would that work at all? Would it make the game more interesting, or on the contrary - too complex and unplayable?

Thoughts?


Disclaimer: The 'unfold button' implementation idea is an intellectual property of pawel7777, if you planning to use it on your poker site, the author would like to get paid