Topic: Universal Basic Income (Read 757 times)

People are socialistic by nature. My freedom is enhanced by private socialism.

Money simply makes public socialism work easier. But easier is as easier does. Couch potatoes get fat, and less able to do for themselves. Exercise makes one strong, so that he can handle the troubles of life easier.

When fiat collapses, don't be so sure that the whole electrical grid won't collapse, and take Bitcoin right along with it.

So, you prefer barter over use of money? Are you not a fan of specialization?

I'm fine with getting paid in money since whatever few skills I have may not always be in demand.

Money freedom tends toward socialism, where people depend on each other.

Barter freedom tends toward individualism, where people depend on themselves.

If you can't even feed yourself, would you bite the hand that feeds you? Money is more than just a store and exchange of value, it's freedom.

Money wouldn't be a matter when we have more than enough resources for everyone? And who will control those resources and why would they share it with us, the majority who don't help with the output?

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and others tried the depopulation thing. They killed as many as 200 million in the 1900s. But look at the population now! Did they miss anything with their UBI plans? Are they smarter than Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and others?

UBI is a necessary ingredient to get the common peeps behind the depopulation agenda.

The resource-based dynastic wealth has been fixated on 'population problems' for a century because 'their' resources are being wasted feeding the 'useless eaters.'  On the other hand, the risk/reward ratio of depopulation to the masses is not very favorable.

With UBI, there will be a direct and tangible benefit to having fewer people needing bennies.  Everyone else will see an increase when there are fewer mouths to feed.  Or so the narrative will go.

Unless they become Amish... or use Amish-like economics.

We already have machines doing the work. Have you people never visited a modern manufacturing plant, or even supermarket?  

A lot of employers don't want UBI because it changes labor market dynamics.  Potential workers have more leverage in negotiating what an acceptable labor agreement is when the gun of "work or die" isn't pointed at their head.  People still want to work to earn more money than just the UBI, but they don't HAVE TO.  Without UBI, there is more supply of workers than demand for labor and workers are forced to accept otherwise unacceptable working conditions.  

Right! Anybody can see that if they don't implement 100% automation, that is capable to do everything, all at the same time, the whole face of the world will change. Those who get the automation first will rule... until there are too many of them so that there aren't enough people to buy any of their products, because the people don't have jobs. Then they will fail for lack of business. The people will have gone on to bartering or Bitcoin among themselves without the automation.

UBI is just a game to put the collapse off for a while. But the longer they put it off, the worse it will be when it hits. In fact, the reason UBI is being talked about at all is that the current fiat system is just about ready to collapse, and they are hoping UBI might keep it from dying for a while longer yet.

Because automation is just an excuse. They are not hiring people because they choose not to, not because of automation. The plan is we are going to be culled anyway... so no need for UBI for people in mass graves.

The money wouldn't even matter if we have more than enough resources for everyone.  You are looking at this the wrong way.   Capitalism already rewards people for simply being alive, money makes money faster than working.  Why not spread that wealth to the lower income group.  If the wealth gap gets too out of hand society crumbles apart.

Until we get to the point that there are no longer any possible jobs humans can do, I don't agree with having a UBI. I don't like the thought of rewarding people for simply being alive.

I actually find the future where we have complete automation less rosy than what is portrayed in sci-fi like Star Trek. Where is the money going to come from anyway? What happens when you are branded "unsavory" and have your income cut off and there's no job you can do since everything is automated?

If we have equal wealth on everyside of the corer then we can't find anyone who will work for us which is indeed for this world to be active and for productivity and also basic income for everyone is much indeed but its not going to happen as well.

The wealthiest people do the least amount of work.  We don't have a system that rewards you fairly or else we wouldn't have factory workers slaving away all day with no savings.  I get a really uneasy feeling when CEOs make 1000x more than their employees.

Capital is king and that is the main issue, people get wealth from ownership and not work.

I would think the answer to be something like this.

Let everyone who is capable of working work. But, provide a method for supporting them during relief periods, so that they can rest from their labors when they need it.

Generally, we have this rest period every weekend, and on vacations from jobs. For those people who need a bigger rest for some reason, we have welfare. But extending welfare into UBI, or even making welfare a long-lasting thing where it is not needed, is turning us into a destructive socialism.

I take the point. If everything is given for free then there is no autonomy and no individual meaning. So if (when?) we reach a point where everything is free, then it may improve quality of life in purely material terms, but the cost is the loss of the freedom that comes from individuals being responsible for their own existence. So a full UBI that provides 100% of material needs is also doing nothing to solve the deeper problem that is the loss of the freedom, autonomy and accountability that is such a big part of what it is to be human.

I'm still not sure what the answer is, but the discussion is widening my perspective, which is always a good thing.

Take Chicago, for instance. If the average guy and his family in downtown Chicago are hungry, what do they do? Go to the store and by some food. What do they do if they don't have money? Get a job or, get on welfare or, rob the store. You can't easily grow an effective garden from the 7th story in a high-rise apartment complex.

The family might be able to figure out a way to move to a couple acres in the country and grow their own food. But they still have to pay property tax, or fight county tax assessors.

All AI might do is make the whole country a slave depot, and everyone in it slaves, just so that people can live. It doesn't really give anyone his own land where he is free to raise his family and grow his own food, and run a little business to trade his wares for the wares of other people.

If robotics ever got to the point where it could supply everything for everybody for free, without demanding anything back from them, it would still be a slave oriented community, even though the slaves would have their every desire fulfilled by the robots. Many people would like this for a while. But after some time, there would be many of them who would like to strike off on their own and make a free life for themselves, living off the land.

My point really in starting the thread was based on my assumption that the next wave of automation will make part of the population effectively unemployable, particularly with the onward march of AI. Will a large part of the population be unemployable? The majority part? Waves of automation in the past have just moved job opportunities  to new sectors, agriculture -> industrial/manufacturing -> service sector. After the the service sector starts to be automated (smart assistants / robots etc), and also smart contracts (hello Ethereum!) - then what is left? If there is nowhere or only a limited space where humans can perform better than AI/computers, then it leaves a part of the populace absolutely disenfranchised.

So I suppose I could have phrased the question better. Really I am asking that if UBI is not the solution to having a lot of effectively unemployable people, then what alternatives are there? Doing nothing seems like a really bad decision.

The wealthy eat food. Without farmers, the wealthy will be below the poverty line, because they can't buy food when everybody is getting enough money from their UBI.

You might feel sorry for the below-the-poverty-line wealthy guy. You might teach him how to grow a garden... to get blisters and callouses from using a hoe. So, what about UBI below the poverty line?

Then, what do you think about UBI below the poverty line?

UBI is only freely given temporarily.

When all the farmers sit back and live on their UBI, where does anybody get food from? If only 1 or 2 farmers keep on farming because they enjoy it, the price of food will skyrocket. Your UBI check won't be enough to cover the cost. Besides, there won't be enough food to go around, anyway. Same with everything else.

Maybe you can eat the check your UBI is printed on. But more than likely, it will be electronic, until the banks and Internet fail because all the bankers and Internet people are living free on their UBI.

The only way UBI might succeed is if we have enough automation... robots to do everything for us. But the world isn't far enough along into robotics to even think of UBI.

For example, let's say I'm born into wealth, should I waste my life working for no reason? What's wrong with taking what is freely given? There is a large degree of self righteousness in what you've written

Hey. It's great winning a little at the lottery sometimes. But living free off some UBI isn't what we were made for.

Have you been working your butt off for a whole bunch of years? Are you tired? Use the UBI for a while to get rested up. But stand like a man and pull your own weight, earning your own money.

It's you welfare leaches that are wrecking the economic system for us all. Get out there and work for what you get.

If they don't make robots that can work for free, UBI will fail. Make the robots first, so we can see that UBI can succeed. Right now, there aren't near enough robots in near enough fields to support us for free. UBI will fail, and you UBI users will fail right along with it.

How does it incur a loss of honor? I'll take yours if you don't want it 

Isn't your honor worth more than money to you?   

You'd say no to it if everyone else was collecting it? No point refusing it there...

My personal opinion is that as the work-force dwindles the government will as-a-result collect less taxes. Not only less income tax but almost all others as-well. If I do not work then I cannot pay for vehicle registration, fishing license, property taxes...etc. The government will notice that and as a result as time progresses, the older/outdated work-force dies off; with that same progression of time what is being taught in our schools will change to reflect the change in society, resulting in a cancellation effect. We most likely will not be alive when this problem exists, we will have been replaced by a society that has been taught(trained) to function in this new world gradually over time. Therefor your theoretical problem will not exist. Criticism on my thoughts is welcomed

The real question is, Will you be forced by government to accept UBI.

Anybody who takes pride in his work, or in the fact that he IS working, wouldn't want to accept UBI.

Personally, I think universal basic income is inevitable but I'm not fully aligned with your conclusions around the "welfare trap". The younger generations are already positioning themselves more as designers (engineers, coders etc) so I think the real challenge is for the older generations. The first jobs to go will be manual labour jobs like driving or stacking shelves and I think many will be glad to stop these and begin receiving UBI.

For many people, they don't work for money exclusively, they work for money to be able to pay for their necessities (food,shelter,clothing etc). I think its very difficult for people to understand the concept of free money and I could see some kind of indirect form of UBI in which necessities are provided. It's easier from a physcological perspective to invent and introduce technologies and concepts which cover these costs than re-invent the monetary system.

And finally, If we do achieve some kind of UBI, The beauty of the system (if implemented well) means that it doesn't matter what people do with their time. I think many people will sit for a few months chilling on netflix and playing the xbox but the human mind (without always realising it) craves meaning. I believe many people will follow passions they were forced to give up like art or music because they were unable to make a career out of it. For those more innovation driven, working on worldwide problems like disease, famine, renewable systems and potentially as far as lightspeed travel. I think that until we take care of our basic human needs, only then can we truly reach our potential as humans and push the boundaries of what we know and understand.

If anyone reading wants an interesting book related to this, i found bulls**t jobs by david graeber to be really useful.

I don't know, we have resources for everyone but is everyone willing to work just as hard? Are you willing to work in construction? Are you willing to wipe shit? Why should someone that is not willing to work at all get a basic income at all? It's not too clear to me.

A rational point is the revolution you refer to.
But there are a lot of other strategies that rich people follow in order to make poor people unable to act. For example, in many latin countries there is a lot of poverty but still there is not any revolution because the rich know how to handle them.

For average people, reasonable agony increases intelligence. The agony of having to fight for survival by earning money increases IQ. UBI stifles agony for a while, by making it easy for all people to live without feeling the agony so much. They are shuffled into IQ-reducing complacency by UBI.

Those few who always have a burr under their saddle, and are ambitious and intelligent, have the chance to take control when UBI drops the IQ of most average people. UBI gives us a whole new world slavery pattern because of this.

We have enough resources for everyone its just that greedy people at the top like to hoard.  UBI is a natural progression towards an advanced society.  Remember if wealth inequality gets too far out of hand the wealthy will be exposed to the very real threat of revolution.  Poor people would rather flip the game board over and start again making all those dollars worthless.

^^^ But it will be good for Bitcoin. Fiat will collapse under such a system. Bitcoin will remain in use among the freedom-loving entrepreneurs. So the starving masses - who will have quit working because of free income - will move over to the Bitcoin side, just to have an easier way to get food than bartering. The early adopters will become filthy rich as masses realize that they have to work to survive.

UBI is a really neat idea for us Bitcoiners, even though many people will die because of it.

UBI turns the citizenry from the parent of the state to the ward of the state. It is designed to strip nations of independence and rights among other economic dumpster fires.

You need to realize that the government doesn't do anything to people... not in the USA, that is. If it seems that government is doing it, it is really government PEOPLE doing it.

There are two ways another man/woman harms you. These are actual harm/property-damage, and direct threat.

If there is a law that has been passed, and it threatens you, take the people who passed it to court for threatening you. Forget their government office. Get the name of the man/woman, and file a claim against them in court. Do it with the guaranteed jury trial... guaranteed by the 6th and 7th Amendments.

Before you do this, get a bunch of your friends together, and sign limited rights of attorney with them, so that if you are tossed into jail by some corrupt politician who has power, that your friends can file the paperwork into court for you. And get them to make the same kind of claim against the same government jokers as you do... with more of their friends having limited power of attorney contracts with them.


Since most people forego this freedom they have, they don't have any other method except for the vote to remove corrupt politicians from government. But they also don't have authority to form mobs - demonstrations - and physically do something about their problem. Why not? They haven't exhausted their legal remedy by using the 6th or 7th Amendment against the man/woman who harmed or threatened them by enacting a law.

They could just make a legit currency that is not a scam and no one has to die, later they will realize they don`t even need currency but a fair one to start would be legit.

The Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

ok so let`s do it ourselves?

Also yes, we the peons "something need doing? work work"  

Any taxes on the rich are simply passed on in the form of higher prices to us peons.

Nobody will NOT be part of a 10,000... just to fight off the other 10,000s. It's the people among each 10,000 that will barter among themselves.

Of course people will die while others live. Western Europe and the whole Western Hemisphere have relative peace, especially when compared with places like Pakistan. So the live/die thing is happening right now.

It's a fundamental element of 'technocracy' with an energy-denominated monetary system.  Looks now like they will call it 'carbon credits.'  With 5G the system on-line (and a global calamity of some nature) 'technocracy' can be switched on.

Don't get your hopes of for a taxation system which touches 'the rich'.  This is the group which is pushing the system.  Technocracy with it's UBI will be feudalism and there won't be as many 'lords' as there were back in the day.  Probably only one.

They have never experience a depression like the 2030`s depression that is about to happen. Yes all of the world`s money systems have failed look at history, there is not one that has not.
It is a Jenga tower they have built, one bad season of no rain or to much rain and all of the crops are dead and the world enters the dark ages again. One massive earthquake, one meteor, one polar shift, one big tsunami and everything is gone. There is no safety net on these types of problems we face. There could be if they used 1% of the military funding to start making backup houses,power, food and water for the working class.

How will you barter when there is 10,000`s that will group up and just take your shit, You won`t. It is not going to be like any other depression in history pal. Prepare yourself, buy some nice drones and attach some guns to them so you can shoot people off your property from the comfort for your living room, You will be living in that living room for a long time, I don`t think you can prepare your drone with enough ammo to defend for what is coming.

^^^ People are still here, in spite of the past. So, if all the world's money systems failed in the past, there must be something that works that is not a money system. Otherwise people would be gone, too. Could it be barter?

The amount of work needed by humans has been going down since the machine age. You cannot deny they amount of losses in jobs coming.

1. Self driving cars = 4-5% of the entire work force out of work
2. Self flipping hamburgers (fully automated kitchens) = 5-6% of the entire work force out of work

As we get more and more advanced the "work" force needed by humans will get less and less and less. (jobs are endless, work is not)
There is assembly lines of just robots in factories today taking 1000`s of human jobs away.

So how do we create a UBI system? that is not created out of debt by the tax payers?
We need to make a new system that is not a debt biased economy like the current one we have.

The universal job is to vote, but the politicians have stolen that job from us the people.
Why not vote yourself instead of voting people to vote for you and pay yourself?

Watch this guys video, he talks about how everyone can create the money supply and how everyone can vote to create a UBI that does not cost the tax payers anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7TLFyK_3Pk (he also talks about the end of bitcoin, which everyone seems to brush under the carpet)

Start collecting UBI today www.bitswift.cash and 4 altcoins for free.

All the worlds money systems in the past have failed and new ones were created (1000`s of civilizations wiped out), Today we keep pumping fiat into the market to simulate the market this will not just lead to a monetary system failure but the collapse of our species if we keep doing it, This bubble is bigger than any other bubble ever created in human history thanks to the FED, wallstreet and Fiat. You people have no clue what shit storm lays ahead of you and how each second that passes by it just gets more and more inflated. There fast growing job is streamers and youtubers these people are no producing any real value, they are not making food. Prepare yourselves today for the biggest economic crash in history is on its way.

Enjoy it while it last because there will be massive riots in the streets the police will have no chance against the masses. They will come rip you out of your mansion, yachts, bunkers and literally eat your faces off.

What does everyone think about the idea of a Universal Basic Income?

It is gaining popularity on both sides of the political spectrum, and there are increasing numbers of live trials of the system.

The concern is that the next wave of automation will create a new class of effectively unemployable people, and that as this continues some system will need to be in place to support citizens. Waves of automation in the past have simply created new jobs in different spheres. The industrial revolution cut agricultural jobs but created factory jobs. The development of computers over the last few decades has hit manufacturing jobs but replaced them with new opportunities in the service sector. The problem is that as AI starts to take hold, many of these jobs will go as well. It used to be the case that there were always jobs that computers couldn't do, but in the future this will rarely be the case.

Universal Basic Income also removes some disincentives to work, and what is called the 'welfare trap', whereby the resulting cuts to benefits due to new part-time work can make it economically preferable to not take part-time jobs.

So as we are generally a technically minded set of people on here, with one eye always on the future, what do people think? Is UBI inevitable? Is it desirable? Personally I think probably both. It is at least worth trying. It is a step towards reducing inequality, and will provide an element of empowerment to the disenfranchised, and so perhaps alleviate some social tensions. It will also drastically simplify existing complex and expensive welfare programmes. UBI needn't be hugely expensive either, an overhaul of the taxation system to make it more genuinely progressive could free up huge quantities of money.