Topic: Visit to BFL (Read 5349 times)

I carry a small leatherman.  Handier than hell.  I am pretty careful about alarming people at work when I use it though.  Different cultures have different sensitivities about such things.

There is no earthy excuse for fucking around with a knife when some perspective customer stops by to chat.  By Occam's, it seems strongly likely that the guy hoped to leverages some childish intimidation thing (or the OP is flat out lying.)

BFL has always leveraged juvenile fantasies.  It permeates their marketing material.  I remember one of the countless examples being Josh linking to some action/adventure car chase film as a representation of transferring material from the bumping facility to the factory.

Whether the BFL perps are of a juvenile mindset themselves or simply hope to appeal to their target victims (that is, people who are juveniles in mind at least and often in body) is unclear.  What is crystal clear is that they are anything but trustworthy business partners on any level.

I have carried pocket knives for a really long time.  I have also been around a lot of other guys who daily carry.  Anybody who plays with their knife like that around a stranger has some issues.  They are usually either incredibly immature or they have significant social issues.  I get really uncomfortable around them, almost like they will think it is funny to swing the knife at you and possibly stab you on accident.

Time for Mythbusters to get in there and TEST some stuff out...

My second fave video of BFL http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=C4SnUObMd0o

note you should turn on Captioning.

All of Josh's tells on where they were in the process of development back in early January are well documented in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZUPniBo5UQ

FINALLY!

They are ( ) Ready to ship Zotak motherboards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eF6FSdur8k

This ^ is my favorite BFL video.

Don't forget the giant pile of 'pre-order' funds.

Now this post appears to have a lot less fluff than any BFL announcement. Meaning there is hard truth in this post.

Large  VCs/Investors looking to have a sizeable mining footprint will not touch BFL until they have successfully been reviewed by notable news outlets thoroughly. And no not the 1 jally review. i'm talking a review with many duplicate devices of BFL and getting average hash power consumption rates etc. Flaws or errors etc.

BFL customers/investors you can thank the founder as well as INABA/Josh for all the BFL has produced....VAPORWARE essentially.

What are your thoughts to date on everything you have seen? (unofficial review)

Just as an interesting aside, I write for a major hardware enthusiast web site. I won't say which one, but traffic is in the millions of pages per day on average. I emailed BFL a few weeks back to ask about the possibility of buying a Jalepeno for review, pointing out that we have hundreds of thousands of readers. No response. None. Based on that alone, I'm not buying anything from them. Why? Because if they're not interested in talking with press, it means they have so many orders that they can't possibly fill them all any time soon. Actually, a response saying something to that effect would have been more encouraging, as it would mean they at least know they're a ways out. My guess is that the "Jalapenos shipping!" announcement gave them a huge influx of cash, but based on previous delays it will be half a year before they can use that money to have more wafers fabricated and shipped back, plus more delays for assembly. At this stage, they should just start buying Avalon chips and working with those, and customers would be likely to get hardware in hand much sooner.

Put another way:
$1250 for a 30GHash/s rig would be an absolute steal right now. In fact, $275 for a 5GH/s Jalapeno would be an absolute steal. You would more than pay for the hardware within two weeks...if it was legit. If BFL had any real quantity of hardware, they should be mining like crazy while they "delay", and then ship all at once "to be fair" or something like that. But there's no massive surge in hash rates going on -- 10% every two weeks is nothing! LTC by comparison just shot up 25% in 2.5 days. It's now to the point where BTC is once more the more profitable mining option for GPUs, which wouldn't make sense if there were a lot of ASICs coming online. A couple months from now, I expect a much larger ASIC boom, and while BFL units would still be profitable, by the time thousands of BFL units are actually out in the wild I suspect the ROI will be in the realm of four or more months -- never mind the 18+ months you've been waiting by then.

I agree, thank you going to BFL OP.

I don't find the office visit in the OP as alarming. If he only got as much information as was put out in the BFL forums, then that just tells me that they are simply consistent. From it, my impression of BFL has not changed for the better or worse.

As for the person maybe seeming rigid or cold, that is just one of the possible personalities one could expect from meeting a random (non-customer representative) person at any company. Even though I appreciate his attempt to squeeze out some info, he did arrive unexpectedly. Nice try, I suppose.

 I'm surprised Josh has not nuked that entire thread from orbit in a fit of rage.

 I'm pretty much willing to bet that I'll received my 20 Erupter USB sticks before my day one BFL Single SC 60 GH/s unit pre-order ships.

 Pathetic.

Weeks? http://store.avalon-asics.com/?product=avalon-asic-chips-10000 My 500+ chips will take minimum 8 weeks at least longer to get to me from the drop site in the US. Then hoping that BKKcoins has a winning board ready I can either buy his or use his open design to have boards READY here in Indonesia and reflow the chips to the boards. Time tick tick tick.

So actually 2 months minimum more likely 2.5 to 3 months but "weeks" sounds sexier though. If I get something running in what July... I will be happy. August still happy... September still happy.

Nice to see the BFL customers are taking it in a calm way though.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1860-we-just-got-fucked-avalon-selling-tons-asics-chips-~25%24-per-gigahash-~6w-ghs-2.html

LMAO!

sure BFL bought some sticjs from friencat fo the jala

It would probably get some monkeys off their backs in a legal sense.  They are already almost certain to be a giant FAIL with respect to performance predictions.  They may as well buy some Block Erupters from ~friedcat and say that they delivered something.  It would be hilarious if a 'SC' ended up being a cardboard box full of USB sticks

Pride will be hurt so bad. I think it is possible BFL/Josh may not bring themselves to use their competition's chips to ship their almost 1 year preorders that are still UNSHIPPED.

Time will tell...tick tock

I've been predicting that for months.  I stipulated it in a bet with somebody how/if/when BFL ships since I didn't want to lose on a technicality such as that.

At least now with proven open source technology becoming available there is a glimmer of hope that BFL customers might one day get something which can hash.

Let's get Gordon Ramsey into Bitcoins... he'd pay a visit to BFL and smack Josh in the back of his head so fast...

lol that would be hiarious , true xD

Wouldn't be surprised to see BFL use AVALON's chips to satisfy order lol.....

FUCKING HILARIOUS

Wow that video is the ESSENCE of what BFL is.

WOW JUST WOW. LOL Josh you guys took notes from these guys huh? haha

This ^. BFL implosion is imminent if they can't get more suckers to preorder to pay for current preorder customers that have been waiting months and almost a year now.

BE CAREFUL INVESTING WITH BFL. YOU MAY LOSE ALL OF YOUR INVESTMENT.

Avalon just released the first segments of their design. This means that there will probably be clones by OEM's in a few weeks.

Has BFL shipped (2%) yet? Nah. Still waiting.

I am becoming a BFL customer, they simply HAVE-TO-SHIP-FIRST. If I put money down on the table I need to see progress and orders flowing out.

Also it does not matter whether someone currently has, had (past tense) or does not currently have an order, they still get the same treatment. I have seen Josh curse out multi-thousand dollar customers despite having orders. (CoinHoarder I think was a good example)

----------------------------

This is what BFL would look like if they were a restaurant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6LY7TJ16pg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQDtoHpAWhg

Watch the first 5 minutes to get a good inkling of their business practices being remarkably similar.

"As for myself, on the basis of today's interview, I will not be ordering from BFL."

Direct quote.

Seems like his partners have orders. It does matter because like i've said in other BFL threads, why do people who do not have orders with BFL make hte biggest stink about bfl? Those who do have orders can beef all they want.

edit: well maybe not all they want, the same friggin beefs over and over gets old. original, creative beefin' allowed.

BFL has been clearly beaten to market, and they are losing the PR battle as well.

Any company that takes your money for what is effectively an alpha first run product, with hardware bugs, is basically living on borrowed time.

It's a no brainer.

That is not what I understood nor does he seem to imply he has no order.

In either case, it is not ultimately relevant.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2523-how-many-units-you-actually-shipping-per-day-moment.html

Might want to re-read the post bud. He has zero orders with BFL. The last line said he will not order from BFL.

There is a word that describes this treatment.  Hustling.

Prostitutes, pimps, grifters....


They take what they can and get away with what they can.

 Ain't gonna lie; that made me laugh out loud

THIS ^ sums up the definition of a true BFL shill.

By the way, if I am in my "MASTER BFL Shill" custume. I always add it as a footer in my messages. Just to make sure people take note of it and don't take it seriously.

For example, I could make the (perfectly rational shill'in) argument that once you give your money to BFL it is now their property. That they don't have to "give it back". They don't even have to contact you anymore. No....you shouldn't even visit them (announced or otherwise) and NEVER expect anything in return.

As far as I am concerned, the customers are giving their payment as "gifts". Yes, you read that right. This is what it is like to be a MASTER BFL Shill. This is my twisted reality and thinking as a Shill of the highest porportions.

If you (the BFL customers out there) complain you are a total "Troll".

(Master BFL Shill) <---  

 Who you callin' a whipper-snapper ?! Why I oughta...

Alright, you whipper snapper. I apologize. 

Sorry, I have only heard of Valve Time® and...whats its name....Duke Nukem Forever.

I understand that you think customers are not worth the time nor effort of actual customer service.

I don't think many customers would agree with you.

Lets go in a different direction for a sec. Lets say the obvious, BFL sells money printing. Blizzard sells games for entertainment.

Each hour without a Blizzard game means one hour of....doing whatever it that people do in their spare time. Each hour without BFL's ASIC devices equates to lost time in money printing.

---------------

Personally, I don't fault the man for visiting BFL unannounced. He was (apparently heavily invested) and successful in determining the situation to through his own ends and means. It brought him to a point of concern.

Whether we agree that he should or should not have made the appointment, that point simply does not change.

Understood.

I cocked an eyebrow at that statement. Remind me not to do vital business with your companies.

Some strive for quality....others....just enough to get by. (Then again, who am I to throw that rock?)

Do you think BFL's customer service is essential or necessary to their business? (Open and serious question.)

Now we are going from Company Headquarters to Intel Fabs? Usually when someone makes a ridiculous argument it is because their position is weaker than it probably should be. If you don't think so, see above where I mentioned they sell a [virtual] money printing machine. No one can deny it.

-------------------------

The end story is that BFL invites people to come on over....simply not unannounced. Though, it has been known to happen before and BFL does "whatever it does" in the face of that situation.

In this case, Dave could have done alot better. It will no doubt cost his employer some money just as Inaba's attitude has (he has admitted before) cost his company some "marginal" income. (or...so he says)

we have now compared intel to bfl

prepare for blastoff

Ah yes, since I take an interest in the gaming industry and gaming I must surely be a kid. It couldn't be that they are one of the main sources for internet drama when it comes to businesses and drawing parallels to BFL due to similar business approaches is quite easy?

It doesn't matter if they mainly sell software and BFL actual physical hardware. It's that their focus is on the side of bringing products to market and selling them to >end user< is secondary. Since selling to the end user in this case is secondary their prime motivator for doing this "in house" is usually profits, hence we get back to the customers who simply are not worth it, there's a reason most companies outsource their end-user "interactions" to brick and mortar stores.

Customer support is in the end a balance, you can't ignore them, you can't obey their every whim. You simply need to put it on the lowest acceptable level while keeping the damage levels low enough. Unless of course good customer support is a core part of your business model, then this has to be one of the major selling points for your product, but so can price point/quality and just about anything else be. I've heard starting a cult is working quite well for Apple, I rarely hear anyone praise their customer support however.


So why would this box of software not be worthy of in person support while the box of fans is?
Also I'm quite sure I could find  a "box of software" that costs 30k+ from a company that would be less than happy if you came stomping into their office unannounced, but I'm lazy and I admit it so I cba.

Also, does buying an Intel CPU give you the keys to the Intel fabs as well while we are at it? It seems like your logic seems to be pointing in that direction.

You must be young, you keep referring to game companies.

Despite that, they sell a box with software. BFL sells actual hardware.

Unless...Blizzard Entertainment sells software for 2,500+ dollars? (or 30,000+)

Please do head over to Blizzard Entertainment HQ and chat with them about some random issue with their games. Since you know they do run their own web store and therefore it's no different from giving their support a call right? Do tell me how that worked out for you when you are back.

There is a problem in your logic, first it is anti-social/anti-customer. Second, the whole idea of having a customer is to sell something, if there is a problem...you actually have to deal with it. If you need to pay a former walmart employee or greeter then do so if it meets the demands of customers. BFL is loaded to the gills with pre-order money. A grand less a month is no big deal.

Third, If you complain, you usually do get prompt customer service. There is no difference between doing it on an email or over the phone, or live in person if your response will always be the same. Which in the case of BFL it apparently is.

-------------------------

Finally, if you sue BFL, you usually have a legitimate reason for that. It usually means you have a case behind it.

The guy who visited implied he has several Mini-Rig orders with one or more purchasing partners. It would imply he has a right to tap on their front glass at their offices to get answers....which he unfortunately got none....with the exception of a bad impression of a situation.

The man who visited also mentioned that those partners are clearly worried about their purchase and may pull the plug on it. Which means it would be extremely reasonable to try to assure those partners with a visit @ BFL offices. Which of course, didn't give him a positive impression.

As far as I can see, to make an appointment you'd need to contact BFL. Consider their email response times are now half a month in some cases. Who here can plan out with good accuracy whether they will or will not be in the neighborhood in a month? Schedules are tricky things...especially if he is from out of town. (which I assume he was)

Uh no, not untrue, those actually exist my friend.

There are those as well.

One type of setup does not exclude the other.

It is true, they do not offer their offices as a retail store. But they do encourage visitations (with a prior notice) and they do offer "pick ups". (see Luke Jr as an example.)



Amazon has phone numbers. If you are a Pro Seller though they actually call you upon request. (They switched over to Voip telephony to save on long distance support)

No.. in fact they were actually nice enough to even come talk to a regular "Joe Shmoe" customer.  Apparently you don't understand what type of business this is.. OR your post was meant to be serious and if that was the case then yes, businesses WOULD be better off without a "very small percent" of customers.  Specifically the ones that drop by unannounced only to ask the same old shit that is typically asked in the forums DAY IN AND DAY OUT.  I don't see how people don't understand this concept.  Just because you are a customer, that has concerns, the SAME concerns every other customer has, and just because you drove some special distance, to see a person on the inside of BFL..WITHOUT an appointment.. doesn't mean they even have to talk to you.  What a monumental level of entitlement to have..

Try going to any other hardware manufacturer.. maybe even 3DFX when they were still around, or AMD, and try to just waltz on in and have an impromptu meeting with anyone and see how far you get.  And before anyone even posts "b-b-b-but AMD doesn't have a product that they have delayed for x months and blah blah" it doesn't matter.  They are still a company.. a company that has absolutely NO customer interfacing capabilities in their physical location, yet someone actually came out and spent ANY amount of time with this guy.  I'm pretty impressed...  some people just have this level of entitlement that just reeks of "I'm an only child and got EVERYTHING I asked for."

Now what I am NOT impressed with is them as a company...period.  Anyone who lets their "Director of communications" get on ANY forum (regardless if he uses his "official" BFL name or not, and start picking fights with EVERY naysayer like a little kid, calling names, instigating, is ridiculous.  There are some supreme dickheads on bitcointalk, but when your "Director of Communications" is in the top 5, that's bad..REALLY bad.  That specific position should be able to do what "cops" do.  Get cursed at, reamed on a daily basis by complete jerks and be as nice as can be to people.  

You and I think about customers differently.
You seem to see them as a plague that must be avoided.
I see them as a valuable resource to be mined for information about how to improve our products.
The Procter and Gamble headquarters have actual tours you can take, so does the Corning headquarters. I highly recommend both. I wouldn't expect BFL to offer tours for a number of reasons.

But BFL spoke to this guy at length. The behavior I expected would be to have the visitor make an appointment with sales or customer service and return at a later date.
Instead, they rushed someone out to do...what exactly? That is what I find a bit odd. But everything to date with BFL has been a bit odd.

Some customers are not worth it, the sooner you realize this the better. Creating good feedback is overrated for developers/manufacturers, got a product people are prepared to pay for it will sell with proper marketing. Just look at EA Games, if that fuck up of a company when it comes to customer relations is still standing you can get away with pretty much anything, think anyone is going to give a fuck about the Sim City debacle in a years time?

People remember bad products, they rarely remember good customer support in the long run. Spend your efforts accordingly.

nice imaginative euro shill

fuck customers, amirite?

businesses would be so much better off without customers

You are confusing BFL with a retail business, they are a hardware design firm that just happens to sell to end users. Dealing with people who just show up as a small business is one of the most annoying/time consuming things to deal with on the customer side when you are not in physical retail, independent if you tell them to fuck off or try to meet their requests.

Look at it this way, if you refuse every customer who doesn't make an appointment what will happen?. They will make one if it is important enough. If you rather try to service every damn person who shows up unannounced at your door, you are gonna end up in a situation where the general census becomes that you get better customer service if you walk up to their door and annoy them.

Unless you are brick and mortar there is no benefit of wasting customer service resources on this for "normal customers" when they can't even show the courtesy of making a appointment. It just creates expectations you can't control when you let your customers decide the terms rather than setting them yourself. Sure if Joe with trousers of gold who is 10% of your total business knocks on the door it's a different matter.

But I guess in the US the customer is always right and if you are not satisfied you can always sue for just about anything.

Untrue. My company has over 10 large corp offices in tristate area. At each is a security desk. You arent getting past that. The security guard only job is to see if you have a badge or not. Or call up to  someone if you have a scheduled meeting. BFL has never touted their lcoation as a retail store, so not sure why you would think different. Think online store. Where do you walk to to complain about an amazon.com problem? Can you even find a phone # to talk to a live person? Good luck, ive tried.

Corporate offices have a reception area for various reasons.

It is not unheard of to visit one with a complaint or when bringing up an issue that cannot be handled by retail stores.

Administration. Like the other guy said, i also work for a large corp. Our admin offices aren't open to the public although we sell to the consumer via retail. Think proctor and gamble, are you going to the corporate office to ask about the toothpaste or whatever they sell? This isn't a new concept.

Soo let us get a bet for the next Update ....
TOmorrow the CHips arrived ? 5000 Pieces ...

then the test without mistakes ....

But the new CHips for Customer comes JUNE

I bet 1 BTC

Then what is the purpose of the office?



Close it down and run it from your bedroom if you are that afraid.

That is what the switch blade is for!

"I was left with the distinct impression that there will be no shipping dates given because there is nothing to ship and BFL itself has no real idea when there will be.
As for myself, on the basis of today's interview, I will not be ordering from BFL."

I have had that very same feeling for a while now.

CSR stands for Customer Service Representative. Large companies have them. That is who is called when customers show up unexpectedly.
Smaller companies either have sales or marketing, or if really small upper management would handle it.
When a customer shows up with out an appointment it is either a cause for celebration or trouble.
You don't call the cops (unless you have something to hide).
You find out why the person came all that way (writing an article, research for lawsuit, going postal, etc).

If I just walked into one of the main offices for the big e-retailers in sweden they would most likely call the cops if I didn't leave immediately. If you have thousands of customers and a few % of them just decides to drop in to check on things on a weekly basis it becomes really messy fast. A few people every now and then probably isn't a problem for anyone but when it becomes common practice it's a different beast entirely.

 Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.

 BFL has nothing to physically ship at the present time. They are waiting on a new batch of chips.

 We'll be lucky if they resume shipping late next week.

Pop Pop Pop....

So much for customer service. Pretty dangerous policy. Insane really.

Security is what they need. Never know who or what would walk through that door given all the heated exchanges that have been had here about BFL. Seriously don't they worry about their own safety... and the safety of the product?

maybe you don't know anything about customer satisfaction, communication and public relations. If you are selling this kind of product over web, still postponing deliveries and hold thousands of $ almost year and somebody visits you, you must be able to answer any questions and make your best to satisfy the visitor. Especially, when you will know, that visitor will share the info with other hungry customers through forums, boards and other communication channels on web.

what you say maybe works within some local business but definitely not on web base selling with six months delay..

Well they have said on more than one occasion to people regarding the shipping charges to 'drop by the office' openly in forum posts, and that people are welcome to pick-up. They know their customers are increasingly anxious from miscommunication - entirely of their own fault. Additionally, negative post from someone whose actually got of their arse and visited holds more weight than trolling a forum. They'd be stupid not to swallow it and be hospitable. It would do them no favours otherwise.

Probably best you don't work for them Rograz.

I'm surprised they didn't just outright tell you to leave immediately, it's what I would have done to someone showing up unannounced.

i was expecting a warm welcome from them since they fail on almost anything so far .. at least on a visit they could lie u nicely ...

And they should not have given any shipping dates until they had a product. BFL is a huge failure.

Can't wait to see them implode as less people preorder and their cash flow dries up.

I am as annoyed with BFL as anyone, but to give them the benefit of the doubt...

- We don't know how many times they're visited by irate customers wondering where their order is.  Maybe BFL is well and truly sick of it (a situation they created...)

- Not giving any shipping dates at all is understandable.  BFL has failed to fulfill every shipping date they have posted in regards to ASICs, so I'm not surprised they refuse to give any more out.

- Turning up unannounced and expecting someone to drop everything and have a meeting is likely to get a frosty reception.  I'm not sure what "I told her that I did not (have an appointment) but was probably expected" is meant to mean.  A person is expected for a meeting or not.

I will not be ordering from BFL.

Yes they are quite busy. Driving around with fork lifters and moving empty boxes with fans. Scrapping old Jalapeno, Single SC and Mini Rig casings. Looking busy on company videos: Butterfly Labs Company Video

I seriously feel like my pre-order money is in good hands. Not.

Thanks to this "visitor" I will receive my Single a couple of minutes later.
He should have made an appointment, what do you expect when you just show up at a company and think they will give you all the time they need to work on the products.

great review - thanks for it.