Walll Street dumping to buy cheap | Bitcointalksearch.org

magneto

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Quote from: cellard on December 01, 2018, 01:19:18 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcgA-hMAozI

Nice vid that explains the obvious but what most newbies don't seem to be realizing: The same people that are saying "bitcoin is dead", "bitcoin is a scam", "bitcoin is a ponzi" and whatnot, are buying when you are sleeping after you panic sell. And this doesn't count all the OTC volume we don't know. The lower the price is the higher OTC volume must be as these big entities keep buying. They KNOW they cannot kill BTC, only become bigger players than the rest, so the plan is obvious: Demoralization to trigger panic selling of everyone, then buy the cheap coins off you.

Exactly. It seems as if institutions are still coming into a market, perhaps at an accelerated pace even, despite this bear market.

This is what people don't understand. Bitcoin's price is seriously cheap right now due to the bearish sentiment within the market and the fact that everyone is panic dumping, that it has become a great buying opportunity.

While it is unclear whether or not actual manipulation of the market is taking place in terms of these same investors spreading negative articles about bitcoin, it is clear that there is institutional demand for bitcoin as an investment vehicle. Even though I wouldn't say that constitutes as actual adoption, it would still be able to push prices up quite a bit in the next bull market.

sorrysteve1

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Quote from: Wilhelm on December 04, 2018, 07:20:50 AM

Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 04, 2018, 06:14:00 AM

--snip--

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

It's what they call a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you have enough followers that do what you suggest, then you have a high probability it will happen.
You invest ahead of your advice and you can float your winnings and get more people aboard.

I am familiar with the term and would agree that it fits my thinking. As I said I guess there is no way to truly know which it is, only to know if it comes true or not.

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 04, 2018, 06:40:49 PM

there is of course no way to be sure since variables can't be isolated in markets. but we can make some logical deductions to know that there are at least forces outside of TA and traders practicing it. for example, many investors don't use TA at all. they buy and sell based on fundamentals or based on no analysis (hype and panic, etc). these people must have an effect on the market. and i know from experience and observation that holding a position deep in profit or loss causes investors to act on fear, greed, capital preservation, etc. traders following TA inevitably affect the market as well, but i just don't think there's evidence of the "self fulfilling prophecy" idea.

Do you not think it could be that these people act in such a way because of the knock-on effects of people following TA? As someone not following TA and relying much more on fundamentals and overall market sentiment - I can't help but realize that most of my thoughts and my actions are in line with TA.

Anyway, I suspect that on this debate we'll continue to go in circles, thank you for the discussion either way, it is always helpful to try and consider things in an alternative way to the one I am most inclined.

haroldtee

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Quote from: Pursuer on December 04, 2018, 02:25:02 AM

what surprises me the most is the fact that nothing about any of these nonsenses (bitcoin is dead, etc) are new! we have had the same strategy used multiple times in the past on the same large scale as today to push the price lower and lower so that they can buy at cheaper prices. but people still pay it a lot of attention for some reason!

my theory is that everyone at some point started loving FUD and use it to their own advantage for shorting bitcoin or buying it in the dip which is why we keep on seeing the same bullshit have the same effect over and over again!

Well, that is the thing. The market is still very young and at its embryonic stage, and the more we keep seeing new people popping into the market, we will keep seeing that same bullshit have the same effect over and over again. Most of these new people do not usually take their time to understand what they are getting into, as they just want to get rich pretty fast, and that is always going to be the target of the institutions which will keep making it a rinse and repeat process.

Some will bail out, some will learn from it, the new ones will be the victim and then the cycle keeps on until the market gets more matured in terms of adoption. I guess at some point, we have all been there, except for some of us who got lucky to at least be reasonable enough to buy the previous dip before the last year's bull run.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 04, 2018, 06:14:00 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 03, 2018, 07:38:34 PM

Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 03, 2018, 08:01:52 AM

If no one else followed TA then it wouldn't hold true.

i don't think that's necessarily true. investors react to price with or without TA. for example, when price breaks downward below a previous range, investors feel it in their pocket and get squeezed into selling. this creates a feedback loop---a downtrend---as price declines and more investors incur losses and are therefore pressured to sell.

TA analyzes such phenomena but doesn't cause it.

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

i agree that's what matters. that's why i stick to TA instead of conspiracy theories.

there is of course no way to be sure since variables can't be isolated in markets. but we can make some logical deductions to know that there are at least forces outside of TA and traders practicing it. for example, many investors don't use TA at all. they buy and sell based on fundamentals or based on no analysis (hype and panic, etc). these people must have an effect on the market. and i know from experience and observation that holding a position deep in profit or loss causes investors to act on fear, greed, capital preservation, etc. traders following TA inevitably affect the market as well, but i just don't think there's evidence of the "self fulfilling prophecy" idea.

randythered

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on December 03, 2018, 01:35:31 AM

Quote from: randythered on December 02, 2018, 02:53:38 PM

I think that there's a level of manipulation but it doesn't run as deep as people think. I'm sure people and companies take negative lines regarding bitcoin in the hope of lowering the price and allowing themselves a better entry point but I don't think that they're dumping coins to push the price down only to buy up more coins after.

That is what the whalecumulators want you plebs to believe. The whalecumulators are the apex predator of the market. They want you to feel safe, and make you think that the markets' boom bust cycles are nothing but another occurence like nature. Cool

Going around calling people plebs isn't exactly the nicest of things. It would be appreciated by me and I'm sure others if you refrained from doing so, this is a friendly space for people to discuss and learn.

Anyway, to the point... Or maybe they want people like you to believe that the market is so heavily manipulated so you'll act accordingly. Or maybe they don't exist.

Irrespective boom and bust cycles are nothing but occurrences, the only thing 'whalecumulators' may do is accentuate those cycles, elongating them and extending the peaks and troughs.

Wilhelm

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Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 04, 2018, 06:14:00 AM

--snip--

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

It's what they call a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you have enough followers that do what you suggest, then you have a high probability it will happen.
You invest ahead of your advice and you can float your winnings and get more people aboard.

sorrysteve1

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 03, 2018, 07:38:34 PM

Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 03, 2018, 08:01:52 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 02, 2018, 04:27:47 PM

--snip--

Could it not be that TA only holds true because they also follow the same analysis? That's really all TA does, it maps when psychologically the members of the market will act in a certain way.

the whales? sure that's possible. i'm sure a good proportion of investors in general pay attention to moving averages and major support/resistance breaks whether or not they acknowledge they're using TA.

Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 03, 2018, 08:01:52 AM

If no one else followed TA then it wouldn't hold true.

i don't think that's necessarily true. investors react to price with or without TA. for example, when price breaks downward below a previous range, investors feel it in their pocket and get squeezed into selling. this creates a feedback loop---a downtrend---as price declines and more investors incur losses and are therefore pressured to sell.

TA analyzes such phenomena but doesn't cause it.

How can you be sure? It seems kind of asymmetric to a chicken and egg dilemma in my mind. People follow TA and therefore act in a certain way that makes TA accurate. Or people act in a certain way and TA is able to accurate predict that. I truthfully do not know which one is truth.

I guess either way does not matter, what matters is that it tends to work.

eaglewhite80

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This is basically what they have always been doing all their lives and as long as there will always be people who do not understand the market, and know that whatever we are doing is just to try and benefit from the trend, as in the end it is always who is able to quickly make the first move, the wall street will keep doing this over and over with a hard solid target on the weak hands. Has always been their thing and they are good at it.

Wilhelm

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Quote from: Pursuer on December 04, 2018, 02:25:02 AM

what surprises me the most is the fact that nothing about any of these nonsenses (bitcoin is dead, etc) are new! we have had the same strategy used multiple times in the past on the same large scale as today to push the price lower and lower so that they can buy at cheaper prices. but people still pay it a lot of attention for some reason!

my theory is that everyone at some point started loving FUD and use it to their own advantage for shorting bitcoin or buying it in the dip which is why we keep on seeing the same bullshit have the same effect over and over again!

shhhhhh *cough* rule #1 *cough*

Pursuer

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Where is my ring of blades...

what surprises me the most is the fact that nothing about any of these nonsenses (bitcoin is dead, etc) are new! we have had the same strategy used multiple times in the past on the same large scale as today to push the price lower and lower so that they can buy at cheaper prices. but people still pay it a lot of attention for some reason!

my theory is that everyone at some point started loving FUD and use it to their own advantage for shorting bitcoin or buying it in the dip which is why we keep on seeing the same bullshit have the same effect over and over again!

The Sceptical Chymist

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I've heard this same line of argument with the precious metals aficionados, that when anyone (not necessarily even big institutions or whales) express a bearish view, it's only because they want to buy cheap gold/silver. I am very skeptical about this. If some really big players were buying up tons of bitcoin right now, the price wouldn't keep dropping the way it has been, probably not even if they were OTC transactions.

I did watch the video, and it does give some decent evidence that this is happening. George Soros and Jamie Dimon are scumbags of the highest order IMO and it wouldn't surprise me that they'd do exactly what the video and OP are claiming. Dimon was one of the players who got the entire world in trouble with the housing crisis back in 2008/09. However, I don't happen to think this is occurring on a large scale, i.e., that this kind of diversionary tactic is being committed by a lot of firms or whales. It is indeed unethical to do so.

They might be setting up "crypto trading desks" but I'm very curious as to how much crypto they're actually buying.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 03, 2018, 08:01:52 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 02, 2018, 04:27:47 PM

whatever you guys gotta tell yourselves. Tongue

it's always the same conspiracy theory, just with different actors. if it's not wall street, it's "the whales" or central banks.

that's why i prefer TA. whether these conspiracy theories are true or not, TA accounts for them.

Quote from: cellard on December 02, 2018, 11:40:46 AM

Then once they have crashed the price, they buy actual bitcoins OTC, and since it's OTC, they can massive volumes without pumping the price.

can they? i've never seen any volume data for the OTC market. AFAIK all we can do is speculate and make assumptions.

Could it not be that TA only holds true because they also follow the same analysis? That's really all TA does, it maps when psychologically the members of the market will act in a certain way.

the whales? sure that's possible. i'm sure a good proportion of investors in general pay attention to moving averages and major support/resistance breaks whether or not they acknowledge they're using TA.

Quote from: sorrysteve1 on December 03, 2018, 08:01:52 AM

If no one else followed TA then it wouldn't hold true.

i don't think that's necessarily true. investors react to price with or without TA. for example, when price breaks downward below a previous range, investors feel it in their pocket and get squeezed into selling. this creates a feedback loop---a downtrend---as price declines and more investors incur losses and are therefore pressured to sell.

TA analyzes such phenomena but doesn't cause it.

sorrysteve1

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 02, 2018, 04:27:47 PM

whatever you guys gotta tell yourselves. Tongue

it's always the same conspiracy theory, just with different actors. if it's not wall street, it's "the whales" or central banks.

that's why i prefer TA. whether these conspiracy theories are true or not, TA accounts for them.

Quote from: cellard on December 02, 2018, 11:40:46 AM

Then once they have crashed the price, they buy actual bitcoins OTC, and since it's OTC, they can massive volumes without pumping the price.

can they? i've never seen any volume data for the OTC market. AFAIK all we can do is speculate and make assumptions.

Could it not be that TA only holds true because they also follow the same analysis? That's really all TA does, it maps when psychologically the members of the market will act in a certain way. If no one else followed TA then it wouldn't hold true.

livingfree

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I watched this video few days ago when someone shared it on social media and analyzing what he's saying, there's a point and it really is happening. All of the points that was mentioned are facts and the most popular that I can remember so far was the words that came from Dimon.

A little by little, this is becoming clear if there's really a manipulation happening to the market.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on December 02, 2018, 04:27:47 PM

whatever you guys gotta tell yourselves. Tongue

it's always the same conspiracy theory, just with different actors. if it's not wall street, it's "the whales" or central banks.

that's why i prefer TA. whether these conspiracy theories are true or not, TA accounts for them.

Quote from: cellard on December 02, 2018, 11:40:46 AM

Then once they have crashed the price, they buy actual bitcoins OTC, and since it's OTC, they can massive volumes without pumping the price.

can they? i've never seen any volume data for the OTC market. AFAIK all we can do is speculate and make assumptions.

I have no doubts that there are "whales" and "manipilators" and Wall Street and banks on this market, but I have absolutely no idea how much influence they all actually have. It can easily be insignificant and price moves can be explained as natural market cycles and speculation on a highly volatile market. I would like to see some serious investigations that provide a solid proof that the price is being controlled by someone.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: randythered on December 02, 2018, 02:53:38 PM

I think that there's a level of manipulation but it doesn't run as deep as people think. I'm sure people and companies take negative lines regarding bitcoin in the hope of lowering the price and allowing themselves a better entry point but I don't think that they're dumping coins to push the price down only to buy up more coins after.

That is what the whalecumulators want you plebs to believe. The whalecumulators are the apex predator of the market. They want you to feel safe, and make you think that the markets' boom bust cycles are nothing but another occurence like nature. Cool

bintangkejoraku

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they deliberately make news like that and create panic, they want to get bitcoin at a low price. this news will make people panic and they will sell bitcoin at low prices. very brilliant idea Cool

figmentofmyass

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whatever you guys gotta tell yourselves. Tongue

it's always the same conspiracy theory, just with different actors. if it's not wall street, it's "the whales" or central banks.

that's why i prefer TA. whether these conspiracy theories are true or not, TA accounts for them.

Quote from: cellard on December 02, 2018, 11:40:46 AM

Then once they have crashed the price, they buy actual bitcoins OTC, and since it's OTC, they can massive volumes without pumping the price.

can they? i've never seen any volume data for the OTC market. AFAIK all we can do is speculate and make assumptions.

TheAndy500

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That's how every young markets works. Big fish have already learned that can make money on Bitcoin and manipulation begins. Many people have warned about Bitcoin entering Wall Street. What is happening now is an example of what whales can do. The good thing is that once they buy the quantity that interests them, they will pump the price up to huge amounts.

randythered

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I think that there's a level of manipulation but it doesn't run as deep as people think. I'm sure people and companies take negative lines regarding bitcoin in the hope of lowering the price and allowing themselves a better entry point but I don't think that they're dumping coins to push the price down only to buy up more coins after.

YuginKadoya

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They are giving FUD for the purpose of buying bitcoin in cheap value and they certainly want to manipulate the market of bitcoin for their personal needs, And as the way bitcoin's value right now they tend to keep the public in a panic mode in that way they truly have the upper hand in making their profit by buying in the dip because eventually there will be a big pump that will come next in every crash of bitcoin, This is what they are looking forward to achieving.

okala

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The dumping is really and I believe the big guys are going to get it at cheap price. I think the market is really been manipulated by the big guys and we should not keep dumping with them as enthusiast. Traders are not going to over benefits from cryptocurrencies market in this condition as the market is been manipulated.

cellard

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Quote from: 1Referee on December 01, 2018, 03:43:33 PM

Bitcoin's on-chain value activity in the last 24 hours is $6.8 billion or 1.75 million BTC. It's crazy if you think about it, because most of this very likely consists of massive OTC trades, and this has been going on for quite a while now. While people here worry if Bitcoin is able to survive or not, smart money is filling up its pockets silently.

Institutions have for once not been the first to enter an upcoming asset class, and they are definitely out to make up for that. What's easier to get rid of shaky hands by exploiting their stupidity? If you don't know what you hold, you will sell it in an instant when things seemingly turn ugly.

Another advantage is that new money is way more likely to enter at current levels. Fresh capital is what we needed, and we get exactly that.

They crash the market on the exchanges in order to lower the price, and with futures they don't even need to touch bitcoin.

Then once they have crashed the price, they buy actual bitcoins OTC, and since it's OTC, they can massive volumes without pumping the price. The crafty bastards will keep doing this for as long as possible, that's until they dry the OTC market. When it pumps it will be massive as they will be forced to start buying on exchanges.

Quote from: Kevin77 on December 02, 2018, 11:22:18 AM

It is not "wall street", everything a rich company does became "wall street" in peoples minds.
Yeah, there are a lot of companies there that deal with finance and that is why wall street is so famous but there are companies outside of USA like Deutsche and HSBC that is trying to do the same thing right now.

Even smaller banks around the world is doing that, comparatively speaking there are fraction of what wall street is being poured into bitcoin in some third world country because the price is incredibly low right now and considering even a small increase of $100 in price for bitcoin could mean a lot of money for third world country if you consider they are putting up millions of dollars plus the dollar-fiat ratio is usually low in those places so it is times 10 profits there.

"Wall street" is just a vague term to refer to the TPTB, I dont necessarily mean specifically the guys that work there

Kevin77

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It is not "wall street", everything a rich company does became "wall street" in peoples minds.
Yeah, there are a lot of companies there that deal with finance and that is why wall street is so famous but there are companies outside of USA like Deutsche and HSBC that is trying to do the same thing right now.

Even smaller banks around the world is doing that, comparatively speaking there are fraction of what wall street is being poured into bitcoin in some third world country because the price is incredibly low right now and considering even a small increase of $100 in price for bitcoin could mean a lot of money for third world country if you consider they are putting up millions of dollars plus the dollar-fiat ratio is usually low in those places so it is times 10 profits there.

aoluain

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They know for sure they cannot kill bitcoin and they also know
there is massive gains to be made by getting in at the times
when the market is low to lay the foundations for their investments
while looking to the future. this is happening now or will happen shortly.

1Referee

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Bitcoin's on-chain value activity in the last 24 hours is $6.8 billion or 1.75 million BTC. It's crazy if you think about it, because most of this very likely consists of massive OTC trades, and this has been going on for quite a while now. While people here worry if Bitcoin is able to survive or not, smart money is filling up its pockets silently.

Institutions have for once not been the first to enter an upcoming asset class, and they are definitely out to make up for that. What's easier to get rid of shaky hands by exploiting their stupidity? If you don't know what you hold, you will sell it in an instant when things seemingly turn ugly.

Another advantage is that new money is way more likely to enter at current levels. Fresh capital is what we needed, and we get exactly that.

949miner

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Quote from: LeGaulois on December 01, 2018, 02:33:50 PM

It's true we are currently living a transfer of wealth and I hope the crypto market will become as he compared with Microsoft, Amazon and others giants. I wonder if Wall Street isn't dumping more than Bitcoin since few weeks. There are many assets massively sold

Also, take in consideration that there are a LOT of people moving from fiat currencies to other kind of assets, like gold, silver, "copper" is the most relevant one in where a bunch of people are trusting at the moment.
Aside from this, some people also want to invest on bitcoin, that is why we might see a pump sooner or later.

LeGaulois

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Diversity and don't invest what you can't afford to lose are the golden rules in Investment, nothing new. The predictions he did back in 2016, any of us were having the same (It will moon). We also all know that a Bitcoin Future will attract a ton of money into the market.

I watched the video fully and 1 thing I disliked is the guy promoting himself "take a look at me" "See my newsletter subscribers ROI" It starts to be serious at about 35 min. he has a great speech and analysis btw, It's true we are currently living a transfer of wealth and I hope the crypto market will become as he compared with Microsoft, Amazon and others giants. I wonder if Wall Street isn't dumping more than Bitcoin since few weeks. There are many assets massively sold

cellard

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcgA-hMAozI

Nice vid that explains the obvious but what most newbies don't seem to be realizing: The same people that are saying "bitcoin is dead", "bitcoin is a scam", "bitcoin is a ponzi" and whatnot, are buying when you are sleeping after you panic sell. And this doesn't count all the OTC volume we don't know. The lower the price is the higher OTC volume must be as these big entities keep buying. They KNOW they cannot kill BTC, only become bigger players than the rest, so the plan is obvious: Demoralization to trigger panic selling of everyone, then buy the cheap coins off you.

Topic: Walll Street dumping to buy cheap (Read 494 times)