Topic: Warning, ALL BFL PRE-ORDERS ARE NON REFUNDABLE - CONFIRMED BY INABA (Read 7711 times)

Wait, so are the preorders refundable or not? I couldn't find anything useful in this thread because it's turned into a trollfest.

ROFL! That was pretty funny mem!!! 

CAT PENIS BLENDER FUCKTASTIC !!!!

ohhh the humanity !!!!!

True, well I guess I'm even a cheaper whore than I originally claimed.  

Damn it all to hell!


btw: thanks for letting me know

Per the new contest rules (as of week 10), the FPGA is no longer part of the giveaway. Only a little single sc will be awarded (once available).

They paid for space in my signature.  My opinion is still my own, that will never be sold.  I'm much too ornery to honestly put that up for sell.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1395324

I'm definitely in the running for gold in the cheapest cheap whore Olympics and I won't advertise for anyone so cheaply. If I did I'd expect to take a credibility hit when my statements appeared to be in defense of the company that had bought my signature.

Why shouldn't I try to win a FPGA while I'm here?  I said I'm not biased, I never said I wasn't a cheap whore.

It may help your claim to be a non-biased non-emotional logical thinker if you remove the paid BFL ad in your signature. Just sayin'.

our = customers.

You may perceive my questions as being pro BFL because I question the motives of those bashing BFL.  This is a common reaction for most people that are emotional about a subject, including myself. When in fact I'm trying to approach this in a logical manner and not emotionally.     Just take a look at my posts a few months from now when you are no longer emotionally charged about this subject and you'll see what I mean.  


edit - again just negating the statements of a BFL represtnative months afterwards would not prove they were erroneous.  They would have to show they were ignorant of those claims or that they could not otherwise take actions to correct those claims.

So unless they were in a cave or deserted island for the last 3 months that would be impossible to prove.  

+1 ROFL!

Suckers everywhere! What's on the horizon for future scam operations? I can't wait. Pure entertainment!

so i got my refund.

that's that.

no more bfl again.

i can spend my $$$ on something more profitable.

Nope no effect. Perhaps he should think before speaking. BFL and BTCST are not much different.

And how is it any different that BFL has promised something that does not exist to be delivered? 7% could not be delivered forever. ASICs don't even exist yet. Delay delay stall stall, stall more, make up excuses, then troll. I don't see much difference in promising something that can't be done consistently or currently does not exist all the while taking people's money in both scenarios.

Think about the consequences of your words before you post.

LOL!!! 

Define "our" in this context? The majority of your posts are so pro BFL slanted I haven't a clue what you mean with this pronoun.

What does BFL have to do to claim for instance that BFL_Jody made false or erroneous statements other than say...hey BFL_Jody made false and erroneous statements, that don't represent BFL as a company?

Can you see how this will not work with regard to the company faq? No? n/m

Those statements are true unless proven otherwise.  It would be hard to prove the statements were erroneous which works in our favor. I haven't failed to grasp this concept.  I'm only offering arguments to broaden your perspective.

tell you what, I'll sell you my spot #187 for a jalapeño for only 4BTC...

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking.

Dude (deathcode),
I wanna be the first one. Do not go before me pls
We are making jokes here, but there are a lot of people who are still spending money with BFL. That is complete misery at least for me..But the money are theirs anyway so they are free to do whatever they like

Sure, people will buy a spot on the line to get nothing...
Where do I sign?

 

...and how do you prove that? More importantly how do you disprove a claim by BFL that those statements were made erroneously?

You either fail to grasp what I'm saying or you're intentionally ignoring the topic, so I'm going to try one last time.

BFL as a company(not a group of individuals) is responsible for the contents of the official faq


This has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Though a BFL whistleblower would be most welcome just now, it seems highly unlikely if the list of employees is as short as I believe it is.

Actually yes, unless it was proven that those statements were made erroneously.  

I do not correlate the following statement with BFL.  I only wish to convey a point by using an extreme example:  Whistle blowers have often been fired, but there statements have been found credible.

Wait, you said this to smoothie? LOL

If this has *ANY* effect at all, please next ask the bernanke to stop printing.

The problem with pirate wasn't that he had paid out before. The problem with pirate was he was offering 7% weekly interest on all deposits, making his business an obvious HYIP/Ponzi. People like myself spent months trying to convince people that the quacking like a duck was indeed coming from a duck. This has no bearing of a relationship to this scenario where BFL has a pretty modest business plan to execute. The fact that you are conflating these does a disservice to the bitcoin community because it will make newcomers complacent towards the real problems with HYIP scams. Once BFL delivers, those who did not live through the pirate era will see this post as proof that some future HYIP scammer is okay.

Think about the consequences of your words before you post.

A faq is easily accessible and oft referenced. The words of one or more BFL reps typed up on a forum that only a low percentage of customers are likely to even register for are meaningless in the long run.

Let me put it this way. Let's say for instance BFL_Jody is fired tomorrow. Is BFL now responsible for what she's said in the past? How many customers have based decisions on what this one rep has said?

Now compare that scenario to the words included in the company's faq. They're not attributed to one person the way the meaningless hostility Josh spews here is, they're understood to be the words of the company...IOW official policy.

By logic how can an FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) be considered more of an "Official" policy than any other forms of communication.  Before you react let me explain.  


When someone states something is "Official" policy that infers that it has been ratified by that company's board, owner/s or whomever may have such authority within that company.  An FAQ does not have to ratified to be published. Therefore holds no more weight than other forms of communication

I think they're already risking that just by having their official policy say what it does, even if they don't plan to actually follow it. Not to mention the fact that they're also legally required to send their customers notices telling them about the delay and that they have the right to cancel their order, which I'm fairly sure they haven't done based on the complaints from customers on their forums.

I'll take that 1 step further, Id bet that Sonny would pack his bags and bolt while Inaba would be here insisting that "your pre-orders refunds are being processed but there have been some unfortunate delays".

I'll guarantee that if everyone who placed a pre-order were to request a refund at the same time that BFL could not refund all customers with pre-orders within a 1 month time frame. Poniz is Ponzi

In your world of "warm and fuzzy BFL" ....HATE = calling things as they lie (pun intended lol).

 

^THIS Reminds me of when people said "Pirate paid before he will pay again." ....and then he stalled and stalled and made excuses and then went silent.

ROFL!

Remember all the responses to all the PirateAt40 and BTCST haters? Oh right, all those who defending Pirate are now quiet as fuck when confronted about their support of Pirate and his bullshit.

Sounds like you're doing the same for BFL. LOL

...at a penalty of $16000 per order + whatever the local consumer protection laws say. Their official policy is meaningless. They'd be stupid to actually follow it.

So wait, they can change their company policy at any time?! When did that start?! [/sarcasm]

So if their original FAQ stated that they would offer refunds, and then in some date in the future they changed their FAQ to a no-refund policy and stopped giving refunds, would you bitch as much as you are now? I mean, you're whining and moaning and bitching for NO reason. Sure, you think you have a reason, but it's so miniscule that it's literally pointless.

Sure, they're *currently* giving refunds. But as stated by Josh, the official policy stands, and is CYA, so they can stop refunding orders at any time they feel like it.

So tired of the BS.... Like dealing with kids.   In fact I'm convinced that a great number of the people in this community are either high school students trying to score on SR or college students who still know everything. 

I'm done dealing with trolls

Statements made by random staff members is hardly binding. It doesn't matter what most employees say. Only someone with real authority to enact policy can make binding statements. Since Josh spends all his time trolling forums, I doubt he has any authority.

Secondary reason is many customers do not read the forums, and so their only information is that refunds are not available. Having conflicting information publicly posted is lying to customers, something BFL loves to do.

This is pointless

I'm not convinced there is any BFL staff aside from Inaba/BFL_Josh Zerlan, but that's another discussion.

So you tell me, why if it's official policy and BFL employee(s) could type it in a forum post they can easily delete, these same employee(s) cannot simply change the official faq? Why is it so difficult to make this policy official?

Not from here, but on BFL's own forum site, and not from only Inaba, but from other BFL staff

Whatever Inaba says here is not official BFL policy and wouldn't be enforceable even if he actually changed to his BFL_Josh costume AND you got it in writing.

Can you even imagine a disgruntled BFL pre-order customer attempting to cite Inaba's bitcointalk rants as evidence that they're entitled to a refund?

How many seconds would it take the COO of BFL to change the official BFL Faq if he so chose to? Why hasn't he? It's policy that supercedes the faq right?

But failed to cite or recognize the statements from Inaba and BFL staff that post-dated the FAQ that states they will honor refunds.  Others have cited them in this thread, but so conveniently they are ignored. 

He already cited BFL's own FAQ, that clearly states pre-order funds are officially non-refundable until January 1, 2013. This obviously gives BFL the cover to deny refunds between now and that date, if they so choose. Whether it's in violation of FTC regulation or not is another issue.

If  you will state fact that can be argued then we could have an educated discussion, but you just seem only want to make loose connections in order to  back up your assumptions.  For what purpose? You must be the shill, for a competitor.   

NO, it's just that in the midst of his intense anger, he has miscalculated and forwarded the wrong time frame to his customers.

We should never forget that he is indeed human. Perhaps.  

Edit: He will no doubt remedy it after he realizes the time frame is incorrect. (We all hope?)

But but ... daddy ... they don't have Unicorn blood!

 

It's almost as though you're suggesting that Josh was being dishonest(gasp) when he suggested that BFL could still ship products before the end of the year!

P.S. This by the way, says that Avalon was correct when they said that the chips take a helluva lot of time to be fabbed.

The "Full Custom" + 65nm = taking its toll in terms of time.

Folks, this is why the other 2 chose much bigger processes. They are older and the bugs easier to surmount.  (And alot cheaper!)

Oh I know what you mean.

When I read creativex repost of what the BFL rep said.....one thought came to mind.

A fab worker at the other end of the line with a conversation like this: [Imaginary on my part, of course]

BFL: What is the latest update?
Fab: Well, it is going well.
BFL: Is it done yet?
Fab: No, but it will be done soon. You know, we don't want to screw up fabbing your "?hand routed?" chip.
BFL: But the chips are made with a really expensive mask that costs a few million. The mask is just a glorified light filter to produce microelectronics....
Fab: Sir, don't patronize us.
BFL: Uh sorry. So...
Fab: So?
BFL: So, when will the chips be ready?
Fab: You know, these things take time. It's not like this is a process governed by physics and stringent mathematics. Geez.
BFL: Oh, I guess your right?
Fab: We are always right.

[30 seconds of silence on the phone]
BFL: So when will the chips be ready, our customers are "impatient".
Fab: When they are ready, Sir.
BFL: So is it like 10 days?
Fab: No, that sounds like it would be too soon.
BFL: Maybe 15 days?
Fab: No, that sounds like it would be too soon.
BFL: Maybe....
Fab: Lets say, 30 days and call it a day? Sounds good?
BFL: Wait, was that a question or a statement?
FAB: [Ripping up the BFL contract in the background, specifying the Jan 24th deadline.]
BFL: What was that noise just now?
Fab: Huh? What noise? Look we don't want to lose any money on making your very dense and very "hand routed" chips. These are complex devices you know. We have to sign off on these multi-layered processes so we can protect ourselves from doing them at our cost!
BFL: I understand. [Sobbing in the background]
Fab: Listen your a nice guy and all, but keep in mind you still have to wait for us to ship the final "naked" chips to the chip packing company of your choice. That is another 7 days for 100,000 chips.
Fab: Then you have to wait for the chip packaging farm to ship them to you overseas. That is at least 5 to 10 days for a pallet. On top of that you will have to send your final pallet of packaged chips, once they arrive at your door, to your assembly plant to have SMT machines put your boards and chips together. That can be anywhere from 3 days to 15.
BFL: [Starts to sweat profusely, then sobs loudly]
Fab: [Fab guy talks over the sounds of sobbing]
Then you have to wait for the completed assembly to arrive back at your door. So that is about 5 to 10 days.
Fab: Then you have to put these together on your own final assembly line, package them and out for shipping. That is maybe anywhere from:
20+30 days = 50 days at best.
40+30 days = 70 days at worst.

Fab: Cheer up, just tell your customers of only the fab delay. And don't allude too strongly that we are still only at the stage of fabbing your chip. Usually our customers' clients are too dumb to realize what that actually means. It'll all work out. Just dole out the delays nice and slow, not all at once. God no.
Fab: [Hearty Laugh]

BFL: [ Hangs up the phone, starts typing up the forum message to let his customers know what is going to go down. ]

----------------------

That is what it went down like in my overly creative imagination.

Hey no fair! Where the hell is Josh?!? When I was daring enough to suggest that BFL might be a bankruptcy risk he showed up and got all verbally riled up. How come *THIS* guy gets to state the obvious without being verbally assaulted?

Thanks for the sig quote BTW mem...gold.

Just like Pirates Ponzi all its going to take is enough refund orders for them to disappear.

well, i finally requested a refund from bfl.

we'll see how long it will take them to process it.

Crazy thread is crazy.  But no, the current announcement thread on BFL's site simply says that regardless of the current order and shipping status, pre-purchasers are being offered a refund.

Im familair with Sonny from his previous scams, he is a disgusting human being.


Official policy is official policy. 
This is just another tactic from Scummy Sonny.

You write the rules in your favor and hide them away in plain sight. You then do what any decent company does and process refunds normally.

Then when you decide you want to cut and run, you can do so knowing that your gullible clients (the only type BFL have) dont have a leg to stand on.

Hello my Drama Queen.

Please let me know when you have an argument of substance so I can address it.
Thanks for your bitchy rant, now get back to your shilling.

Ahh true, i see red text and an idiot defending BFL and assume the worst.

You'd think someone at BFL could've been bothered to change the official policy statement regarding refund policy on their website, but I guess then it wouldn't provide the CYA protection mentioned previously.

Not sure what has inspired so much hatred mem, but there are plenty of people that have been issued refunds and I'm sure that there will be more issued due to the announcement of the most recent delay.


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/519-10-dec-2012-bfl-asic-update.html

You are a fucking drama queen.  Do you even have an investment with BFL?  If not, why do you care? If you do, then why are you rooting for them to fail?

Oh that's right you're a drama queen. This post has nothing to do with BFL and everything to do with you starting shit so that you are the center of attention.

seriously, it's pathetic.

For these types of issues, since it is a business incorporated in an American state, they must follow American law, even with respect to customers in other countries. 

What this guy said.

I'm not too sure if this is lame attempt at trolling, or if you are just misinformed. I've never advertised any companies in my signature, let alone BFL. I have purchased stuff from BFL, and have a user account on their support forum, but that's as far as my involvement has been with the company.

n/m...found it. Unfugging believable.

It doesn't say that they are non-refundable, they are just saying that you can't get a refund until January 1st at the latest

It seems you do not grasp what an official policy is.

Whatever they say, do and promise means nothing when they have an official policy stating NO REFUNDS.

Twist, turn and make excuse as I know you will, their policy is and always has been no refunds.
Meaning they can at any point cease business and keep the preorder capital.

You know this to be true and it is factually true.
Your cute opinions are just that and they can offer no assurances.


Keep insisting you trust a company run by a convicted felon because he gives you the warm fuzzies, I'll stick to the unadulterated facts.


You are the liar sir and its disgusting how you blatantly ignore facts and attempt to slander those who present the very facts that contradict your opinions.
Still you are another BFL shill, I dont expect you to acknowledge the facts I only expect you to attempt to derail the topic with your lies and misinformation as I have quoted above.

There are no fallacies in my argument only facts quoted from their own webpage.
misconducting lies etc - the only lies here are your own, if you have any character worth defending then list said lies and we discuss them fact for fact.
haters must be paid to use so much time posting about it. - says  the shill with his paid sig.

You would be funny were you not so sad.

Can anyone confirm or deny that BFL just announced yet another delay? As in won't receive chips until mid January 2013? Links please if you have them.

I'll order another from their competition if this is the case.

LOL, indeed.. FRIZZ23 is totally insane, or get paid for posting that much hate

Again and again.. Another thread bashing BFL

Nothing new here, this refund policy is quite old, and BFL still refund if asked, even if they could wait until jan 1st for refund..
They are more accomodating that their policy state.

Anyone who wish to cancel, do so, especially if you are under 6000 order number, this will make me have my rigs sooner..

For anyone interested, I'll order another 60Gh from BFL this week.. and im pretty confident to have it delivered, sometime !!


At least, I think all those BFL-Hater are not hurting that much, as it often stated in marketing, speak about it for good or for bad, but speak about it

I'm quite impressed to see that few bitcointalk user are making so much effort to bash BFL.. post full of fallacy, misconducting lies etc.. those few haters must be paid to use so much time posting about it.. 

Mem - What BFL signature?  Try reading the text of mufa23s post. I think mufa23 has a good point, you are shitfaced right?

Pretty much mem is emotional and wants to make a scary ALL CAPS thread.  Again, please read my reply on the first page of this thread.

I dunno, perhaps. I think they had the advantage in the ASIC arena when they announced(lied) that they'd "schedule shipments" for October. Warning folks that this company doesn't keep it's word will hopefully give some pause.

mufa23 the BFL shill with his BFL sig.

Still talking out his arse, does not even check the website of the company he endorses.

This is what a shill looks like everyone.


Cant see the confirmation for your shilling.
Obvious shill is obvious.

So many newbies with paid BFL sigs refusing to read their favourite companies website.

Oh the cognitive dissonance is strong with BFL fans/shills.

I was scammed by the Federal Reserve/IRS scheme for many years, as the trust account records show:
http://savingtosuitorsclub.net/showthread.php?461-Social-Security-Number&p=5059&viewfull=1#post5059

Federal Reserve Act - Remedy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU6fxC5CXMg

My point was not that that any questions are automatically trolling,  but that it is all the bad advertisement that is giving BFL the advantage.  They get free advertisement from the haters and questioning.   

As stated, they have indeed delivered FPGA products. Then like now they were months late, but they did eventually deliver.

Thank you!

They have— a great many FPGA products— but maybe that was just a "CYA" and not their actual policy.

Please excuse my naive question (and excuse me if it comes off as offensive, no offense intended), I'm not really into mining anymore and have only followed these ASIC-related developments from a distance, but has this BFL company ever delivered anything to anyone ?

It's amusing that anyone raising concerns about BFL is automatically labeled a troll. Almost like no one has ever been scammed in the BTC community.

It is so hilarious that all the BFL haters that open up post after post of 'bla bla bla'....

any newbie coming to the forums sees nothing but BFL everywhere....

BFL marketing engine:  haters and trolls

Email is addressable and "directed" at a customer.

Forum posts are not "addressable" so there is no "directed notice" being given. (A customer of a vendor may, for example, never visit the BFL forums. Jody [BFL rep] once mentioned [supposedly] most of BFLs customers don't come from the forums in an email.)

Anyway, that is my speculative take on it.

I have been critical of BFL in the past, but have toned down my attack (for lack of a better word). There is no proof that BFL has ever denied a refund nor not honor one in the future. My faith level is pretty high that they will continue refunding to all those who ask.


@Josh: In regard to the above, even though it's stated "whatever means you wish to do this", I'm not sure if that applies to forum posts. If it does, then a tweet would also suffice. In the spirit of the clause, I'm pretty sure it's speaking of emails as the least form of communication. Please consider that option if or when a delay in shipping is imminent.

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

Just a little info

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


Here is another little tidbit

These threads are getting more and more ridiculous.

Did they had an advertisement and site in the Netherlands where you could order? Do they deliver from an EU address? No, all went through a domestic American site, the company is located in the USA, so American law?

Yep, Yatt.

FRIZZ23 - Guaranteed 23 identities at least! - Pre-Order Yours Today! No charge at all!
`````` 24/7 - 100% totally anti-BFL devoted trolling! - go check him or one of his other identities @ Bitcointalk.org-Forums``````

Yet another TROLL thread.

Struggling to see a confirmation in the thread.

mem,
thank you for the warning.
If that doesnt happen , we will hunt down bfl workers with torches... do you want to participate?
is this thing ever going to end ? when (i am not saying if  being a bit optimistic ) bfl sents final products on their customers you will start the posts with title like "[ATTENTION]BFL SENT PRODUCTS TO A SPECIFIC GROOUP OF PEOPLE FIRST!" ?

There was no announcement.   This thread is a troll thread made by the thread author.

For refunds- As far as I know, USD are how refunds are issued since this is how Butterfly Labs receives these funds.  If one has paid through bitinstant, the refunds made through bitinstant would be made in a reverse USD to BTC trade initiated by BFL.

Are the reimbursements to be in BTC or USD?
Doesn't an announcement like this make potential customers wary of pre ordering?
Does this buy BFL more time?
Does this announcement actual do more damage to the credibility of BFL than just another delay?

Shocking!

ALL CAPS ATTENTION EVERYONE!  IT IS TIME FOR THE ALL CAPS POST!  HOLY SHIT!

As was previously posted in a thread that the original poster has read, the non-refundable policy in the FAQ section is simply CYA language.  Also, please READ the FAQ referenced before posting a troll thread.

BFL has, and continues to refund pre-orders to anyone who asks- no matter what the reason.  Yes, there is a matter of trust and confidence that one has to have in any new thing, but butterfly labs has been nothing if not the most honestly hard working group of people throughout the transition from their FPGA line to this new ASIC line of devices.

But even if you were to go by the actual posted text on the FAQ section of the BFL site,


= still has a provision for latest shipping date where refunds are legally required on the part of BFL.

Oh, and they actually have the funding (not pre-order money) to develop this product, and are currently progressing in ways that I am sure will surprise us all.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/faq/
So at the moment they are not yet shipping and it's still 2012, so at the moment the orders are non refundable.
But, I still don't know what the law will tell us about it.

/thread

Until mem posts a BFL link and/or quote from Inaba/Josh, he's just the shitfaced typical liar he usually is.

Don't cancel. Sell your spot in line.

OMG,mem said it so........BFL MUST be fixin to fold up shop & run with the money that the CEO thief gathered & kept as BTC to make him more wealthy & he won't give refunds because he'll have to sell BTC for fiat & we know we all lose money if we buy stuff with our BTC because the exchange rate will rise & we lose even MORE money,then the the Mayans said that the world will end on December 23, 2012 & we won't be able to take our BTC with us or get refunds for ASIC's & we'll never make more money from mining ever!!!

So cancel ALL your preorders NOW,while you can still enjoy your money before the world implodes  

Whew.............I think I about covered that  

What does the american law say about that?
If the law says you must be able to cancel and get a refund if it takes longer than twice the time they say when you order, they have to give a refund, even if it says something else in their policy because the law is more important.
I'm not sure what law they must follow for orders in other countries, for example for me. The dutch law because I order it from within the Netherlands, or the american law because they are an american company.

citation please

wow!

that is very important to know!

thank you for the information!

They can and may refund your order simply to keep the good PR going, but at any moment they can refuse to do so legally thanks to company policy.

Be warned, they have no requirement to deliver you a product.



The FAQ has been confirmed as correct by Inaba, it just took a long time to pin down his answer (Inaba and BFL are extremely deceptive and attempt to derail any thread that brings attention to their despicable business practices).

Please keep in mind this company was CEO'ed by Sonny a convicted con artist right up until we discovered his past at which point a hasty transfer of power was organized.
People like Sonny will have no issue closing shop in the middle of the night and bolting and referring you all to the "NON REFUNDABLE" clause on their website.

Waiting for Shills defense......