Topic: [Warning] Bitcoin layers are not here to stay. (Read 251 times)

bitcoin network does have methods to lock value in a way that it can be used as a reference that cant change(be spend) until condition met
however many current generation subnetworks including LN do not have secure, audited and protected way to use such reference that cant be manipulated within the subnetwork side

LN for instance can set up channels where partners dont use fresh locked value but value which one partner locked months/years before even knowing the partner
also LN can open channels without even a utxo lock reference
also the users cant tell if the partners are or not using the same utxo reference with someone else elsewhere in the network

LN's design cant prevent these flaws due to its underlying design. so fresh new generation subnetworks need to start from scratch that offer the niche side services below what bitcoin does

there wont be a single subnetwork that solves all bitcoiners needs and LN never has nor ever will come close to trying. however different groups/services will have niches of services that will create next gen subnetworks(plural) that do a better job then the current subnetworks offerings

There really is no direct way for developers to earn from trying to improve bitcoin as there is no entity that directly owns bitcoin as a whole. However there are companies that may hire developers to try and find them ways to improve on bitcoin so they benefit from it.

I am sure many companies especially one that handles exchanges would want huge profits so if they are prioritizing that over developing bitcoin then there is nothing we can do.

Or when you frequently send or receive micro-payment to or from same people.


But none of them are Bitcoin layer. Ethereum and Solana are standalone cryptocurrency, while Optimism is Layer 2 for Ethereum.

What they want to do is to cash in on the popularity of Bitcoin, otherwise, I don't see any reason for a bunch of developers to try and be the next Bitcoin when if they are capable enough, they can create good cryptocurrencies and blockchains that will help people in one way or the other and they will still get their fair share of popularity within the market.

As mentioned by others, if a blockchain is fast, has lower transaction fees, lower confirmation times, and is secure, it will get a lot of users in the market because we know that people like fast and secure blockchains that they can use for their daily transactions without having to worry about rising transaction fees and congested mempools.

So, it's true that they can't create another Bitcoin but I'd say they don't need to, Bitcoin has earned its place and it will be its place for decades to come, so new developers should try to create new things and innovate in their zones to try and come up with things that people might like.

You are not far from the truth as this makes sense from every angle. The crypto space is clearly a free space for development of any innovation, but i think the OP is somewhat bothered about the too many projects coming on the Blockchain. If these projects are actually beneficial, then no one should be complaining much. But since some of them causes congestion and are only to target few users who are willing to spend their money, then not everyone would find it important at all. I don't know if the Bitcoin Blockchain can handle some of this things, because they where never part of the plans from the start. This is why white paper is always important for every new project.

There are no results we can point to yet but I want to believe that it is a worthy experiment especially since layers on ethereum have done a great job of pushing the loads from ethereum Mainnet to those "layers". For Bitcoin, I expect those layers to come very handy in times where demand to fast transaction times is on the high side. You can just use a cheap layer until bitcoin mempool has been cleared up. This is still theoretical though.

All these layers are temporary solutions. Even though people liked Lightening network and it has solved the congestion issue to a certain extend, it is still not hugely popular as we expected it to be. It is true that we need permanent solution and sidechains are here to give us temporary relief. But as bitcoin grows its footprint and more users are joining in daily, it is only a matter of time before these sidechains becomes obsolete.

Runes and ordinals are the shittiest invention I have ever seen in the Bitcoin history. The entire NFT stuff is shitty. So the Devs need to find a permanent solution to remove them from the network completely. They can utilize thousands of shitty coins and their networks to be honest. Honestly, Bitcoin still needs to progress a lot to match the industry standard of a payment processor.

Well, you can't stop the developers from creating new stuff and promoting it to the average crypto bro.
Most new projects will fail, but there might be a project or two that will add value to the community and survive.
I agree that the BTC blockchain shouldn't be clogged with useless stuff(like the runes and ordinals). The developers should focus on off-chain solutions, instead of trying to put everything on the blockchain.
I also agree that there are some people, who wanted to make Bitcoin into another version of Ethereum(by adding DeFi, smart contracts and NFTs), but Bitcoin is Bitcoin and Ethereum is Ethereum.
There's nothing wrong with hard forking the BTC blockchain and creating BCH, BSV or whatever. All those forked Bitcoins have failed, without causing any damage to Bitcoin Core. Freedom is the most important feature of the cryptocurrency world. If some people prefer BCH over BTC, they are free to use it instead of BTC.

Optimism survived, Ethereum survived, Solana survived, stop hating on these layer projects, they make transactions faster and cheaper than Bitcoin, this is the part that many Bitcoin maniacs don't want to accept, I respect the love for Bitcoin but don't expect everyone in the world to love Bitcoin and hater every other things.

Some projects will survive and some will fail but if we don't give developers the chance to put in the effort what is our gain? Every developers are not the same, some do have passions to bring solutions into crypto space and some are scammers with bad plans in mind, this is why investing in other coins and projects are more risky but if one risks only what they can afford to lose it will be fine.

Youre right mate. I dunno why theres a lot of haters for those devs that trying out to improve bitcoin ecosystem. Well one thing I wanted to have on bitcoin is scalability, maybe these new layers might help in formulatung a better stack for bitcoin or could get worsr who knows its a continuous thesis when it comes to this that need time before we can see beneficial to btc.

Layers are a separate entity which do good things for Bitcoin and I would not be as quick to dismiss them. They are definitely not going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

But even if they did, Bitcoin does not depend on them, so I would not be shaken by any negative layer news. Perhaps disappointed.

If Bitcoin layers work similarly to those Ethereum layers, then I'd say they're very much important and are here to stay because once they achieve their full purpose, they might be able to help bitcoin scale far more than LN would ever have. Op is saying Bitcoin is good as it is but left out a crucial part about Bitcoin scalability and dirt cheap tx costs are absolutely needed for Bitcoin to get mass adoption.

I'd like to remind that development on layers is self-funded and undertaken voluntarily.  Put yourself in the shoes of these people.  It's not an easy task to do for free, so please be patient and give it some more time.

The primary cause for the decline in development on second layers, however, is the technical limitations within the current Bitcoin protocol.  Numerous layers, which I'm confident could function even more effectively than LN, remain theoretical due to disabled OP codes. 

You are fundamentally confusing what you are talking about. You seem to be confusing bitcoin layers with things that are side projects working off the bitcoin network.

Layers are absolutely here to stay. Layers are how we build upon and use the bitcoin network at a mass scale. You don't understand digital money if you think layers aren't here to stay. Payment networks are always built up through layers. But you aren't talking about layers, you are talking about non-bitcoin things that use the Bitcoin network. That's very different than layers.

Hmm, that's a harsh reality but we need to accept that still, we cant let go of hope I believe many people consider Bitcoin as a payment mode not an asset or store of value. Hmm so if a large number of community members are in favor of this narrative there will always be discussion and hype of solutions on the network to fix it.

We can't do anything with it, except if there's no solution from the whole community to move on to other technologies such as scalable blockchain L2 and blah blah but the point is with Bitcoin you need to make some compromises if you can't then choose Bitcoin as a holding asset and other technologies for your day to day transaction.

Don't forget things like colored coins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_Coins

Been around for 10+ years at this point.

Might not be as popular as say LN but people still use them to today.
L2 is not going away. It has it's uses and that is not going to change.

-Dave

Bitcoin layers aren't here to stay, or will never surpass bitcoin because no one has come close to what satoshi did. It's as simple as that.

Sure, ethereum is super powerful, but there's a human behind it. Even worse, that human is in the public eye, and subject to public opinion.

I'm sure vitalik is a great guy, honestly I do. Same for the guys that run Solana.

And this isn't maximalist thinking either, saying that layers are not here to stay. I just think it's the type of thinking that is reality and until a project comes around that is exactly like bitcoin in every way, the question will arise:

Why not just use bitcoin?

What, because the price is too high? Yeah, it's literally digital gold. What did you expect?

Lightning Network only works when you can convince people to send you micropayments over a channel.

If you're just funding channels yourself and sending, sending, sending, you're just opening more and more channels which costs you more money than simply sending it on-chain.

So I guess for creators and sellers, LN is good.

Not so much for the rest of us.

I've actually lost a little bit of money routing my normal-sized transactions across the LN as opposed to on-chain for this reason.

Hopefully that is true. I liked lightning network but I thought the devs would figure out a more permanent solution while ln takes some of the network load. That never happened sadly. Bitcoin still can get spammed heavily and instead of fixing the current problems the devs add more “features” like the ordinals and they enable even more spam. At this point it doesn’t make much sense to say “do this, fix that” because bitcoin has already gone deep in the way it is in. The only remaining solution is to use something else when bitcoin is unusable.

I agree that bitcoin at its core is what we should focus on but at the same time, it will only be a matter of time until all the issues piles up on bitcoin and it becomes almost unusable for most. I believe the developers are really trying their best to create solutions to every constant problems and challenges that the blockchain is facing.

I am sure more problems will emerge later on however it can also be noted that technology is also improving so at least now we know we have a chance to create something that could finally solve a lot of things.

We can not be sure about that.

If they are here for transactions, to reduce transaction fees, they are here to stay, because it benefits many people who use bitcoin for transactions. If they are here to make transaction fee worse, more expensive for most of Bitcoin users, their chance to stay here is not too good. When bull market ends, bear market comes, hype gone, demands to get rich will disappear and those projects will die.

Forget about those projects with promise for layer 2, x, y, but their root idea is to help their team richer by inscriptions, etc. because they will die in bear market. Look at side chain projects like Liquid, Rootstock.

https://liquid.net/
https://rootstock.io/

I believe in future of those side chain projects.

I've stopped fooling myself and maybe you should too if you are a beginner.

We are all booked with this fantasy of a better Bitcoin, it's been how many years since Bitcoin launched now? 15 years already? And till today nothing does it better.

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Developers of today are instead hooked with Layers in the crypto space, starting with layers 0, 1,2 and maybe we will see 3 and 4 in the future, but honestly, all these are useless, it is just a way to raise some money, and get themselves rich, no better Bitcoin is coming.

Once upon a time, some Devs were fighting to bring out a better Bitcoin, calling Nakamoto's invention a failed one, we have Bitcoin white, black, private, cash, and others but all of them failed, lies upon lies, but at least they tried and today they have stopped trying, because it is hopeless for them, Bitcoin is just  Bitcoin, it can't be beaten.

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Now we have Bitcoin Layer 2s, promising to be better for Bitcoin in some ways, Defi stuff, I get it, but honestly, they do nothing, they are not needy, they exist now only to grab attention since runes and ordinals exist( another shitty rubbish) and the ones who will benefit most out of them are still the developers.

Do not take anything in the crypto space as first over Bitcoin, even if they shinning objects you must not put them first, they are short-term hype and FOMO drive, they will fade away in no time,  I am talking about the likes of BVM, BeFi labs, Satoshi this and that.

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There is nothing more reliable as a form of safer investment than Bitcoin, accept this or get massively liquidated and dumped on after Bitcoin's massive run is done, Bitcoin will still be here after but not these money-hungry inventions.