Topic: Warning: blockchain.info may register you IP, even if you don't use them! (Read 6151 times)

I don't know about that. Governments aren't above making laws about laundering bitcoins, and if they can't find a way to regulate it, they're certainly not above labeling it 'dangerous' and throwing users in prison.

Read the doc I linked. Your node can still be open for connections AND behind Tor. It's been this way for like 8 months.

That's pretty much the whole point of the internet.

No fork needed, I was writing about factors external to Bitcoin and its protocol. As for irrelevance - today's credit cards are far worse, and may be irrelevant in your view, but hundreds of millions of them are in use.

This will absolutely never happen. The system allowing such bs would be by definition a fork of Bitcoin, and a pretty irrelevant/hopeless one at that.

But the moment I run my node through Tor, noone else can connect to it, and I am not contributing to the Bitcoin network.

I still think that anyone who has truly something to hide should hide behind Tor, but it is annoying that the rest of us have to just to conserve our privacy.  I know a government or somebody resourceful could collect this IP info themselves.  But the average weirdo with an axe to grind probably can't - or if he can, then he cannot get this kind of info for transactions in the past, except that blockchain.info serves it on a silver platter.  And he might not give a damn about "plausible deniability".

To summarize:

• If you run a full node, blockchain.info is likely to register your IP with your transactions (diluted by whatever transactions you relay).
  
• If you really care about this, run Tor.  At the price of making your ISP believe you watch child pornography (just kidding)
  
• Some of us think that blockchain.info should stop publishing this otherwise transient IP information.  Others disagree.
  

It's really not that complicated at all.  No need for a GUI.  Its a proxy that you should just let start at login and do its thing running in the background.

It's incredibly easy to `brew install tor` and then copy paste a couple commands it outputs after installing.  Way easier than following that guide (although that guide looks like it would work fine if you really want the GUI).

There are multiple nodes running as Tor Hidden Services.  Bitcoin can hide in Tor incredibly easily.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/Tor.txt

I looked up the IP of all the nodes I run on blockchain.info and not a single one of my own transactions is listed as being relayed by any of my nodes.

But they would not know you are paying yourself or you are paying someone else...

But you can always transfer your coins to new address....

This is presently true, but only because Bitcoin is still a new, obscure, and therefore unregulated system. As it gets more widely adopted, there will be more attempts to regulate and monitor transactions. Much like a business today is typically required to collect and report information about certain fiat transactions, in the future same AML requirements may apply to businesses within the "bitcoin system". Add to this private consumer-snooping industry which will jump on the bandwagon. You place an order once, with your mailing address, and your coins are tied to your identity. Laundering service is not available due to AML regulations. You may choose to trust your online wallet provider to not disclose your sources of coins (thus acting as a mixer) unless served with a court order, that is all.

No, it really does take an expert. If you only have a single Bitcoin income source, it is quite possible to track your bitcoins even after they go through a mixer by watching spending patterns. Multiple non-linked income sources using distinct wallets and different mixers (eventually combining at another mixer) would be harder to track. Even then, you have to understand Bitcoin at a low level to avoid any slip-ups. However, the only way to truly be anonymous is by only spending the bitcoins within the bitcoin system.

What's all this obsession with IPs anyway? Every box on the damned Internet records your IP.

Most LAMP installs come with awstats or webalizer or some sort of plugin preinstalled. Guess what that does? It processes the logs which are kept by default. Guess what those logs consist of?

Most firewalls keep logs if nothing else. Your IP is kept literally by pretty much everything online as part of the normal functioning of the Internet. This is how it should be, just like any piece of mail will have the address of someone on it.

You can also just run the app with -nolisten so blockchain can't connect to you directly. Then your transactions will be attributed to whatever nodes you connect to. Of course if you accidentally connect to the blockchain node, they can still see and publish that, but it's unlikely.

He didn't!

He suggested not to make transient information (IP) permanent and public. 

If ever I turn to the dark side of the force, I will off course start using Tor.  But if we all do, and all the nodes hide, the bitcoin network will be harder to connect to.

I doubt that my government has started worrying about bitcoin and surveilling us yet.  But of course they don't "miss the boat", all the information they did not get around to collect in time is presented to them by blockchain.info.

And regarding "plausible deniability":  Once people are looking, they might find proof elsewhere.  It is better not to be suspected than to be suspected without airtight proof. 

This information is not private. I don't see why it is so hard to face this fact. The companies and government agencies collect it, analyze it, and use it. I don't see why it is so hard to notice that their exclusive access to everyone's information gives them an unfair advantage in controling our lives and the world. Making this information universally accessible restores the balance and empowers people at the expense of companies and governments.

If you wish to keep it private, use VPN/Tor/mixing service/wear a hoodie (CCTV), etc.

Maybe someone should start a anonymous relay server, in a location without any log rentention law environment.

It could just prove you are the first to relay that transaction to block chain.info, nothing else,

what do you mean it takes an expert? use tor and send your coins through a mixer, that's pretty much all there is to it right?

oh lol!

i could easily get anyone's IP on this forum and show you all the tx they have ever made with that ip

Bullshit.

You have plausible deniability you sent the transaction.

They only log the IP which first relayed the transaction to their nodes.

Then use a VPN instead of Tor.  In the age of data retention, not using a VPN for all your internet activity is like handing over your privacy on a plate.  They are not that expensive anymore and they are easy to use. There is no excuse not to!

I kind of enjoy perusing through the IP logs and speculating as to the actual IP/location of the owners of various addresses.  I vote keep it.

thank you!

What!?? I cant believe what I am reading in this thread! So many Bitcoin using supposed privacy advocates ranting about privacy concerns?
I really thought you guys took civil rights more seriously. Instead you claim that governments and hackers of all sorts already collect all kinds of data and that one more company doing their job shouldnt be a concern? Some here even endorse that practice!

How would you like if any company publicized all aggregated info they have on you?

- Name
- Address
- Telefone number, dials, bill and conversation summaries (Horizon, Telekom, Vodafon,..)
- Email, contacts, conversations and attachments (google, yahoo,..)
- Friends and other contacts (Facebook, flickr, Whats App,..)
- Payments and savings (your bank, blockchain.info, Paypal,..)
- Internet traffic, IP, ...

There is a reason for this information to remain private.

I join the vote for blockchain.info as well as any other entity to adhere to those simple standards.

Everyone needs to understand that:

1. Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer technology. As such, everyone can know and control what peers they are connecting to.

2. Peers are identified based on their IP addresses, which are assigned by third parties - private companies. You have no control over this. Furthermore, you are using third-party infrastructure to communicate messages between third-party assigned identifiers. You have no control over infrastructure. This is the reason why the military of most countries, or powerful corporations, build and use their own network infrastructure.

Overall, do not expect privacy. You may make extra effort, but judge this effort in the context of an ever-changing game.

I would rather have all the information available to everyone, than all the information exclusively available to someone. This way nobody gains an unfair advantage that leads to abuse.

i realize its not possible to do the tx without the IP, but it doesn't NEED to be displayed in a user friendly manner allowing everyone to see...

Nonsense, bitcoin relayed transaction display the IP.

So you vote take down bitcoin? Good luck

Tor is insanely easy and it doesn't have a non-gui version

Government agencies already can and do track network activities and tie them to IP addresses. Bitcoin, and blockchain.info in this case simply makes things fair by making certain - easily available - information public, instead of being exclusively available to chosen entities. That is a good thing. Collect the IPs. You might be surprised what you find in there. What you cannot find leads us to the next point - and is also what others cannot find. Again, very fair.

As already pointed out, what is available are the transactions my node has relayed to the blockchain.info server. It is hard to prove that I was the one who created the transaction, and I can make this even harder by connecting to Tor, too.

OP, does any of this make you feel any better?

Again, they don't need to "ask" you to this. This is readily available to them if they want to have it. Again, Bitcoin removes at least some of the unfair advantage of government over people by making the information available to everyone.

It does.  Here is how to run it on a Mac: https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/MacRunOnBoot
And there is more info about command lines etc here (digging it out is a bit tricky, I have seen more well-structured docs):
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki

what if i started publicly displaying IP of visitors to my pron site would that be cool?

I vote take down IP...

Tor is over complicated and correct me if I am wrong, Tor even do not have a non-GUI version?

Use tor, there solved

What I am saying we should take caution and think about some solution!

i know! i know! lets bend over preemptively

Yea blockchain is just taking the ip of the first node to to relay the transaction to them, so you must be connected to them. If you use -connect and connect to a clients you know isn't yours or is on a server that will not happen. None of my transactions actually point to my full node.

i have to agree with picobit.... publicly displaying the ip addresses is just not cool.
they could show a marker on the map fine, but printing out the IP... not cool under any circumstances.

What if goverment allow bitcoin but ask all bitcoin client register IP when they get a broadcast for certain period?

The main point of this thread was not so much to ask blockchain not to do this (although I also did that) but to point out that they do it.

As some of you say: blockchain.info just exposes that this can be done (and make it easier for any amateur to get the info).  But that exposure is only worth anything if we notice it!  Pointing that out was my main purpose.  I should obviously have noticed this earlier, but didn't.  Perhaps other people also overlooked this.  

Does posting this make me look a bit foolish?  Perhaps.  But if it keeps somebody out of trouble it is worth it.

Note that no significant harm is done, to me at least.  I have not used my bitcoins for nefarious purposes (and would certainly have used Tor if I did!).

Blockchain.info only shows which IP address relayed the transaction. This is not proof that the transaction originated from that IP address.

I suggest you hook up your full node to Tor. That way you will relay random transactions from the inside the Tor network, in addition to your own transactions. This will give you plausible deniability, because it will be impossible for an external observer to distinguish your transactions from random Tor users'.  

This thread is so much fail.

Why? So the government does that BUT does not tell you? This is how bitcoin works, and blockchain.info exposes that. They are doing a service.

If they were just doing that, I would find it a good thing.  I do for example not complain that they will label any tx to the address in my signature with my bitcointalk.org username.

But blockchain.info are actually reducing the anonymity of bitcoin by registering and storing transient information that would not normally be available later.

This is a good thing. Too many people have the misconception that Bitcoin is anonymous. In reality, it takes an expert to make Bitcoin anonymous. Blockchain.info is actually dispelling that misconception.

I don't truly have anything to hide - I just find it surprising (and disappointing) that blockchain.info would really do this!

When checking whether a transaction had confirmed, I was surprised to see my home town on a map on blockchain.info.  My actual IP was listed with the transaction.  A quick search on the IP gave me many of my old transactions as well.

I am using the Satoshi client (and Armory), so I am running a full node.  As blockchain.info is very well connected, we are all likely to connect to one of their servers.  Your client may do the same, and then blockchain.info gets your IP, stores it forever, and makes it publicly available.  Not cool!

Of course if I truly had something to hide, I would use Tor.  But I don't, I just don't like to see my IP publicly associated with my transactions.  This info is not stored in the block chain, and although anyone could pick it up when you transmit the information, it is not normally available for later analysis.  You could argue that this just shows the lack of anonymity of bitcoin, and that anyone could do the same thing as blockchain.info.  And yes, they could, but it would require a significant effort.  And they cannot analyze the past before they decided to spy on you - except that blockchain.info has done it for them.

Don't get me wrong, I normally think that blockchain.info is a great site.  I just don't think this feature is a good thing, to say the least.  It is also a bit inconsistent on one hand to offer a bitcoin washing/anonymizing service and promise not to keep any logs of its use - and then publish the IP of the originator of the incoming transaction.

Let this be a warning to all of you running full nodes - and a suggestion to blockchain.info to stop registering IPs of individual transaction, please!