WARNING: Canceling a withdraw on MtGox still counts against AML limits.

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on August 29, 2012, 09:49:34 AM

Update:

Speaking with MtGox employees by email their system can't handle exceptions so the cancellation will count against the AML limit. They have however agreed to put a warning on the cancellation page to indicate that cancellations will be considered a deposit and will count against AML limit.

While it isn't a resolution I like (going to suck that 20% of my trading volume for the next 30 days is blown on a technicality) the warning is an acceptable compromise.

Hello,

Thank you for your kind understanding in this matter. Our developer is creating a token for the warning on the Mt.Gox redeemable code (withdrawal) page. We will put this up tomorrow.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Update:

Speaking with MtGox employees by email their system can't handle exceptions so the cancellation will count against the AML limit. They have however agreed to put a warning on the cancellation page to indicate that cancellations will be considered a deposit and will count against AML limit.

While it isn't a resolution I like (going to suck that 20% of my trading volume for the next 30 days is blown on a technicality) the warning is an acceptable compromise.

repentance

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Quote from: crazy_rabbit on August 28, 2012, 03:01:53 PM

I don't think it's fair to say it's deceptive, more likely it's rules they have to play by to meet some sort of legal requirements. Or perhaps its just how they account. It really is far clearer to consider canceling your withdraw as a new deposit.

It's a reporting threshold transaction so I can see why their system counts it against AML limits, and yeah, their accounting system should regard the cancellation as a withdrawal and a credit - you can't just pretend the transaction never happened. They should be able to manually over-ride the system limits, but it's possible that doing so would trigger enhanced due diligence requirements which they don't want to deal with. They need to be clearer about this with their customers, though.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Banks generally have a concept for a voided transaction. It happens thousands (millions?) of times a day. Given that the MtGox code for the withdraw and deposit were exactly the same came from the same account and went to the same account and were ~30 minutes apart it hardly seems IMPOSSIBLE to call that a voided transaction especially when I didn't deposit it I clicked the button labeled (by them) CANCEL.

Yesterday our bank had to void a $28,500 cashier's check because they misprinted a name and I even left the bank with the check. DUN DUN DUUUUNN!!!! That might look suspicious. It actually was rather routine and only took a couple minutes, two signed sheets of paper and I had a corrected cashier's check.

Still IF MtGox can't modify their system to handle unusual events that is fine but they shouldn't label the button "cancel". Also their their customer support should be required to warn customers that canceling a withdraw in progress will still count against their AML limit.

crazy_rabbit

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on August 28, 2012, 03:48:47 PM

Well it is deceptive if not proper disclosed (both on the site and when customer support is adovacting it as a course of action). Also I really doubt it is the letter or the law. It seems more to be a technicality of their system and when the system says you are over the limit you are over the limit and "nobody" can authorize an override under any circumstances. Essentially humans enslaved to the machine they built.

I would hate to see what happens if the system accidentally let you make an invalid withdrawal for $10 mil, only to cancel it.

"Sorry by AML rules you can't withdraw any funds for the next 200 months. Please contact us in 201 months and we will be sure to process that withdraw for you. If you get level3 verified we can shorten that to 21 months. Sorry that is what the system says."

I could be wrong here, but if you think about it- Bank ledgers really only have debits and credits (I know this is only one type of many types of accounting). If they were audited it could look suspicious if there was a little note next to one of your debits "cancelled". I'm sure they are paranoid about their accounting too. But yes, they should mention this- and maybe now they will.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Well it is deceptive if not proper disclosed (both on the site and when customer support is adovacting it as a course of action). Also I really doubt it is the letter or the law. It seems more to be a technicality of their system and when the system says you are over the limit you are over the limit and "nobody" can authorize an override under any circumstances. Essentially humans enslaved to the machine they built.

I would hate to see what happens if the system accidentally let you make an invalid withdrawal for $10 mil, only to cancel it.

"Sorry by AML rules you can't withdraw any funds for the next 200 months. Please contact us in 201 months and we will be sure to process that withdraw for you. If you get level3 verified we can shorten that to 21 months. Sorry that is what the system says."

crazy_rabbit

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on August 28, 2012, 11:44:01 AM

MtGox refuses to adjust withdraw limit in the event you cancel a withdraw.

I made a $10K USD withdraw from MtGox by MtGox code. I was unable to complete the transaction at the destination so not wanting to have a $10K USD "bearer bond" hanging around I canceled the code. The option is labeled "cancel". There is no warning this will be considered a deposit.

MtGox informs me the canceled transaction will count against our AML limits. So $10K out of the $10K daily limit and $10K out of the $50K monthly limit wasted.

What is even more deceptive is that in the past when I (and others) have had withdraws delayed by Mtgox for weeks the only suggestion offered by support was to have them cancel the withdraw and remove funds by alternative methods. I never took them up on that offer however if I had I might have found myself unable to withdraw funds at all and in a worse spot than simply waiting for the slow withdraw to be processed.

I don't think it's fair to say it's deceptive, more likely it's rules they have to play by to meet some sort of legal requirements. Or perhaps its just how they account. It really is far clearer to consider canceling your withdraw as a new deposit.

Stephen Gornick

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on August 28, 2012, 11:44:01 AM

The option is labeled "cancel". There is no warning this will be considered a deposit.

The word cancel is pretty clear:

Quote

1a : to destroy the force, effectiveness, or validity of : annul

1d : to call off usually without expectation of conducting or performing at a later time

2a : to mark or strike out for deletion

- http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cancel

The problem, I suppose, is that once issued the code becomes a negotiable bearer instrument. And the issuer (Mt. Gox) has no way to tell that it code wasn't used in trade (e.g., for use as escrow) where perhaps following the trade you redeem it yourself.

So I can see why they might have this policy. But I can't see why they would label the action "cancel" when clearly it is not cancelling anything. Instead they are providing a method making it easy for you to redeem one of the codes you had created and nobody else had redeemed. It is like if I borrow money from you -- me repaying early would not mean that I had canceled the loan.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

MtGox refuses to adjust withdraw limit in the event you cancel a withdraw.

I made a $10K USD withdraw from MtGox by MtGox code. I was unable to complete the transaction at the destination so not wanting to have a $10K USD "bearer bond" hanging around I canceled the code. The option is labeled "cancel". There is no warning this will be considered a deposit.

MtGox informs me the canceled transaction will count against our AML limits. So $10K out of the $10K daily limit and $10K out of the $50K monthly limit wasted.

What is even more deceptive is that in the past when I (and others) have had withdraws delayed by Mtgox for weeks the only suggestion offered by support was to have them cancel the withdraw and remove funds by alternative methods. I never took them up on that offer however if I had I might have found myself unable to withdraw funds at all and in a worse spot than simply waiting for the slow withdraw to be processed.

Topic: WARNING: Canceling a withdraw on MtGox still counts against AML limits. (Read 1871 times)