Way to know number of multisig if you did not set it up?

DaveF

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Quote from: jackg on June 17, 2021, 08:39:23 AM

I kinda suspect they just had/have no idea what they were doing...

Did you give them a full and proper tutorial on how to set everything up? Did you include ways of keeping things secure if they're physically near each other - eg don't create mnemonics in the office right next to each other (and write them down on papers everyone can see). Finding safe places to store the mnemonics etc... Perhaps adding additional ways to recover the mnemonic in case its lost (a separate piece of paper with the initial character or two of each word on it for example)

Is there a "young" partner if there's and older one and are you a cosigner? I'd recommend doing 4 of 6 and holding 3 keys yourself just in case two people screw up (or are they actually unlikely to do this)?

Not my job...it's his now.
I have nothing to do with them for that side, I am just an outside person they bring in for network issues.

The problem is they have really good documentation guide for how stuff works and a procedures manual that covers just about everything. And nobody pays the slightest bit of attention to either one of them.

Everyone does everything, even stuff they should not be touching.
They have the same issue of a lot of small businesses have, "get it fixed now, we will do it properly later" and then later never comes.

If they had 150BTC sitting in there it would be one thing, however it's closer to 0.150BTC so it's less of an issue.
They have a lot of BTC going through but never much stored there, and if it stops flowing for more then a day or 2 it's going to be noticed.

-Dave

ranochigo

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Quote from: DaveF on June 17, 2021, 07:08:32 AM

-snip-

Multisig has to be done with authentication, ensuring that the individual public keys are corresponds to each of the parties involved. Using all of the public keys, you should be able to reproduce the corresponding addresses. The responsibility should be on each of the parties to check if the conditions are correct, so there really isn't any trust required as you'll know the conditions to release the funds explicitly. You should advice the person to be doing so, you can't spend the funds without knowing the redeem script or all of the public keys anyways.

Quote from: jackg on June 17, 2021, 08:39:23 AM

Is there a "young" partner if there's and older one and are you a cosigner? I'd recommend doing 4 of 6 and holding 3 keys yourself just in case two people screw up (or are they actually unlikely to do this)?

Provided that they trust you of course. Doing something like this risks having the one who holds the majority of the keys to be able to keep the funds hostage. Defeats the point if the purpose is to distribute the control of the funds evenly in the first place.

jackg

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https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

I kinda suspect they just had/have no idea what they were doing...

Did you give them a full and proper tutorial on how to set everything up? Did you include ways of keeping things secure if they're physically near each other - eg don't create mnemonics in the office right next to each other (and write them down on papers everyone can see). Finding safe places to store the mnemonics etc... Perhaps adding additional ways to recover the mnemonic in case its lost (a separate piece of paper with the initial character or two of each word on it for example)

Is there a "young" partner if there's and older one and are you a cosigner? I'd recommend doing 4 of 6 and holding 3 keys yourself just in case two people screw up (or are they actually unlikely to do this)?

DaveF

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Quote from: nc50lc on June 17, 2021, 01:15:58 AM

Quote from: DaveF on June 16, 2021, 05:44:59 PM

-snip- Now the question is was it an honest mistake or was someone planning to run with the BTC.

Setting wrong the slider into 2 of 3 could happen in most cases but during the steps of pasting the cosigners,
I doubt that they wont notice that it'll only require two additional cosigners while making a "M of 4" MultiSig wallet.

Moreover, the chance that all four cosigners happen to wrongly set the sliders into 2 of 3 is way too slim,
it it's only one cosigner, then the addresses he'll get will be different from the rest of the cosigners.

I'd say that the wallet wasn't created by accident.

They have, at least according to the internal "memos" re-done the wallet every 6 months for a few years now.
Having said that, they are also real sloppy with other procedures, having done work with them on the internal network side it is within the realm of possibility that:

1) They had a discussion during the covid lockdowns and decided to go with 2 of 3 and never noted it in the guide.
2) One of the older partners was leaving did he force it on people (probably more of a 1a then number 2) and it was never noted.
3) They screwed up on re-creation back in January and said "meh, lets just go with this"
4) Actual malice, remember now you have 2 people who are conspiring
5) Huh

We are not taking tons of money here, but you never know.

-Dave

NotATether

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Quote from: BitMaxz on June 16, 2021, 09:14:03 PM

...maybe partially he can extract some BTC since he holds one of the seed of the 2 of 3 multisig wallet.

Not possible. You need signatures from private keys made by each of the seed phrases to move any funds. There's no such thing as moving a partial amount of BTC from a multisig private key.

nc50lc

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Quote from: DaveF on June 16, 2021, 05:44:59 PM

-snip- Now the question is was it an honest mistake or was someone planning to run with the BTC.

Setting wrong the slider into 2 of 3 could happen in most cases but during the steps of pasting the cosigners,
I doubt that they wont notice that it'll only require two additional cosigners while making a "M of 4" MultiSig wallet.

Moreover, the chance that all four cosigners happen to wrongly set the sliders into 2 of 3 is way too slim,
if it's only one cosigner, then the addresses he'll get will be different from the rest of the cosigners.

I'd say that the wallet wasn't created by accident.

BitMaxz

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Quote from: DaveF on June 16, 2021, 05:44:59 PM

Thanks to all for the info. Turns out it was 2 of 3 not 3 of 4 which was what threw him off he saw 2of3 but everyone way telling him 3 of 4 so he figured it was something else.
So, no he is not touching it till it's redone and all the funds moved. Now the question is was it an honest mistake or was someone planning to run with the BTC.

-Dave

So you mean that all BTC are stolen? or you mean the funds are move to that multisig wallet?

If you mean that it was moved to that multisig wallet that's not a problem they can repeat the procedure and make a new multisig 3 of 4.

We can't say if it was a mistake or someone trying to run the BTC but it's impossible that he can run all of those BTC maybe partially he can extract some BTC since he holds one of the seed of the 2 of 3 multisig wallet.

DaveF

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Thanks to all for the info. Turns out it was 2 of 3 not 3 of 4 which was what threw him off he saw 2of3 but everyone way telling him 3 of 4 so he figured it was something else.
So, no he is not touching it till it's redone and all the funds moved. Now the question is was it an honest mistake or was someone planning to run with the BTC.

-Dave

ranochigo

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Other than the methods the above replies mentioned, you can also check the redeem script itself. I'm assuming that you keep a backup of your redeem script, which is standard practice.

The redeem script should begin with 53 (OP_3) and end with 54ae (OP_4 OP_CHECKMULTISIG).

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: jackg on June 16, 2021, 03:53:49 PM

I seem to remember it saying the type of wallet in the top bar like "multisig 2 of 3".

I confirm this.
I just created a 3 of 4 multi-signature wallet to check what is exactly shown in the title bar.
Look at the image below.

jackg

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https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

I seem to remember it saying the type of wallet in the top bar like "multisig 2 of 3".

If a transaction has been sent though before, you can put its hash into a block explorer to find out exactly which type of multisig it was based on the script.

DaveF

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Someone just asked me and I went "duh" and I'm an a tl;ds (Too lazy, didn't search) mood.

He is taking over some payment work for a client who setup a 3 of 4 multisig.
BUT.... before he accepts responsibility for the BTC he wants to be sure it's really 3 of 4 not 2 of 4.

Is there a way to check? I am away from any Electrum clients that I have so I figured I would ask.

-Dave

Topic: Way to know number of multisig if you did not set it up? (Read 120 times)