I'm not sure if that will be fair to the miners when we have to set up the table of fees in every transaction we've made. Well, I don't believe such existence could be possible because we are also depending on the market flow and that people consider moving their Bitcoin fast and that they need to pay more. I'm not sure if that it gives the fairness benefit to the miners since they are also suffering huge expenses mining those block just to confirm.
if that sometimes we pay more fees, I consider this as just atonement for them.
Topic: What do you think is a fair transaction fee for the Bitcoin transaction? (Read 328 times)
December 28, 2020, 05:36:20 PM
December 28, 2020, 05:15:29 PM
Those who buy coffee are not interested to subsidize extensive Proof of Work that will over-secure their transaction. They are fine if there is a modest PoW and a modest tx fee.
the cost of security (represented as demand for block space) is always gonna be priced in. if other people are willing to pay for bitcoin's POW and you can't afford it (or low value tx simply don't justify it) then use an altcoin (lower security, lower fees) or a second layer network like LN.
it's a free market. we all need to make trade offs. nobody should be paying the cost of a cup of coffee just to buy a cup of coffee. but if you hold value in a lesser altcoin, the chance of the coins you received being double spent is non-zero. there are ways you can lose money on LN too.
fundamentally, that's the trade-off. bitcoin's security is top notch, but it comes at a cost that too many people are willing to pay. if you don't wanna outbid them, you can opt for a weaker security model.
On the other hand, if users do not pay sufficient fees to cover even basic expenses on tx broadcasting and data storage, it's not healthy for the network.
that's not something i'm concerned about, given the existing block weight limit. there is constant demand.
December 28, 2020, 02:41:26 PM
The lower the better naturally, though it should have a reasonable scale based on the amount and the traffic (though preferably, the traffic factor should be eliminated somehow to have a constant transaction fee at all times if possible), especially since if most people would want to adopt BTC as a mode of payment. I mean, no one would be fine if they were to pay for their food via BTC to suddenly see that their around $10 meal go up to $15 due to the number of transactions in the network right?
A fair transaction fee should be free, otherwise it is a tax.
You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
That's not even fair, that's called being entitled/privileged. Miners also have to pay their fees, and you're basically asking for them to let you transact Bitcoin with their help for free. Additionally, miners are can be called the "middle man" between two parties. The examples you gave about having no fee? It's because you're just two parties trading directly. You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
Yes, that's why I've added the condition (c) here.
Those who buy coffee are not interested to subsidize extensive Proof of Work that will over-secure their transaction. They are fine if there is a modest PoW and a modest tx fee.
On the other hand, if users do not pay sufficient fees to cover even basic expenses on tx broadcasting and data storage, it's not healthy for the network.
December 28, 2020, 09:02:22 AM
You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
One more way to look at this is you're paying them to move your coins -- they have no obligation to provide you their block space for free.
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
Lightning fees are practically negligible at the moment, and it's structured to stay that way. You already have to pay on-chain fees to actually fund your channel, so I'd say it wouldn't be worth it if you had to pay hefty fees per transaction. Any figure I can come up with is going to arbitrary though, so I'd say that what we have now is perfect as is.
December 28, 2020, 08:54:59 AM
A fair transaction fee for who? For the bitcoin user? For the miner? You have to clarify what you're asking. For me, a user, buying a coffee at $3 with fee at $10 is funny. If lightning network won't spread, we'll unsee bitcoin as a medium of exchange. The problem is that with lightning network we're having additional information to a project that is already too complicated for an ordinary human to understand.
Note that you can move bitcoins without having to make transactions by giving your private key, which is of course, not recommended.
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
Whatever you do in private, won't have taxes. Drug dealing doesn't have visa taxes, obviously. Only two parties exchange their goods. The difference is that on bitcoin you're announcing thousands of nodes to include your transaction on their disk space and that's why it costs. Because of the competition.When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
Note that you can move bitcoins without having to make transactions by giving your private key, which is of course, not recommended.
December 28, 2020, 08:34:57 AM
A fair transaction fee should be free, otherwise it is a tax.
in my opinion if it's free it's not worth the results you get. taxes are very necessary, held for the sake of sustainability and the position of bitcoin as an important asset. However, the problem of high fees needs to be reduced to give bitcoin holders more space to continue to exist in the cryptocurrency universe. so this shouldn't cause anxiety for holders of bitcoins under $ 10-100. but until now, will the miners provide relief?I preferred to use fees around 1$ only all do it takes time to recieve it in the other wallet but it's worth it than to pay for 5-$ or more for normal or faster transaction fee asked by miners. The transaction speed just reduce for 1-2 days of waiting for confirmation ,but it's good alternative if you are not really in a hurry to recieve it in your wallet.
December 28, 2020, 07:58:01 AM
A fair transaction fee should be free, otherwise it is a tax.
in my opinion if it's free it's not worth the results you get. taxes are very necessary, held for the sake of sustainability and the position of bitcoin as an important asset. However, the problem of high fees needs to be reduced to give bitcoin holders more space to continue to exist in the cryptocurrency universe. so this shouldn't cause anxiety for holders of bitcoins under $ 10-100. but until now, will the miners provide relief? 
December 28, 2020, 07:49:01 AM
What do you think is a fair transaction fee for the Bitcoin transaction assuming that
a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
It is indeed a great and timely discussion! As the bitcoin price is growing up gradually, the fees are following the same trend too! So it will be great if we can bring standardization in bitcoin transactions fees.
Visa or Mastercard or any other payment gateways charge anywhere between 0.5% to 2% plus local taxes on every transaction. However, bitcoin fees can often go higher than 3% to 5% based on the mempool status! I think if at all possible, 0.5% to 1% should be the ideal fee structure to make it cost effective for the sender!
Also in Visa/Mastercard charge the fee from receiver whereas bitcoin fees are paid by the sender. Might not be very attractive for high value transactions!
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December 28, 2020, 07:43:38 AM
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
You are considering person to person physical transactions.When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
Consider this with paypal or worldpay type online merchants you will have your answers. Also consider this with sending money overseas, you will have your answers, consider this from a merchants side - consider how much you pay to the payment service providers, how much you worry of getting your payment reversed?
Question could be how much we should pay on each transaction we make regardless of the volume in the transaction. I think the current setup is absolutely fine with this too. It's the users who are not aware of how much they should be considering to pay by looking at the mempool congestion.
Yesterday I had two transactions. One with 2 sat/B and another with 5 sat/B. All those got confirmed in the next few hours. However the calculated fees from wallet software I use was over 120+ sat/B. But at that time even for the next block if I could spend 10 sat/B, I would have it.
Our ignorance can not be the cause of blaming a system. Learn the use of in the first place.
December 28, 2020, 06:01:30 AM
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
the equilibrium of what users are willing to pay + what LN nodes are willing to route transactions for. it's a free market.
in practice, since the barriers to running an LN node are so low, it stands to reason that fees will constitute a race towards zero. we're talking extremely cheap, like a penny.
of course, you are not guaranteed bitcoin's security when you use lightning. that's the trade-off. there are situations where you could lose money---node goes offline and counter party is dishonest, bitcoin blockchain is congested so you can't close a channel, etc.
December 28, 2020, 05:51:43 AM
Miners will still earn a revenue because even without fees, block reward still exists. Technically, we do not really need fees to transfer BTC. However, as miners obviously prefer txs with fees over free ones, it just became a constant competition over who gets their tx to be mined first. You could initiate a free tx at any time - given you are ready to wait for months, if not years (or.. forever) to actually get it mined.
Fees actually acts as a disincentive for spammers, that's why minimum relay fees was introduced. The fee market makes spam attacks more expensive and with lesser funds, the spam attack isn't competitive. I would say the reason why fee is necessarily is to reduce the shock to the system during the decrease in the halving. It creates a free market for the fees.Surprisingly, zero fee transaction was made possible during the early years of bitcoin as well as some blocks that has been created this year 2020 and 2019 as well.
2020 Block
[1] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/617750
[2] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/626507
2019 Block
[3] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/600590
Still possible. It just requires the participation of the miners. The transactions described likely belongs to the miner mining it.2020 Block
[1] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/617750
[2] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/626507
2019 Block
[3] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/600590
If you're responding to the fiat shill, then take it with a grain of salt. Tax and fees are intrinsically different, with fees, you're expected to pay someone or an intermediary and given that the miners uses their POW to mine blocks and include your TXes into the blockchain, I would think that it's like Western Union, Paypal, MasterCard, Visa which all charges a fee. You wouldn't call that a tax would you?
December 28, 2020, 04:21:01 AM
Well, bitcoin transaction being fee means that miners will get no revenue from it right? So no one will mine bitcoin and the whole chain will stop because that is the reason why bitcoin miners existed to process and get income from transaction fees. Bitcoin fees are a must for miners to still have the reason to mine. About fair transaction fees, less than 2% of the total amount I think will be reasonable.
Miners will still earn a revenue because even without fees, block reward still exists. Technically, we do not really need fees to transfer BTC. However, as miners obviously prefer txs with fees over free ones, it just became a constant competition over who gets their tx to be mined first. You could initiate a free tx at any time - given you are ready to wait for months, if not years (or.. forever) to actually get it mined. 
December 28, 2020, 04:17:48 AM
What do you think is a fair transaction fee for the Bitcoin transaction assuming that
a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
How do we achieve fairness in decentralized monetary systems such as Bitcoin? In such systems, there are no rulers to dictate what others should or shouldn't do. There are no judges to determine what is right and what is wrong, no moral laws to follow, everything in the system is regulated by bitcoin code, and everyone willing to participate has no choice but to follow or leave. By acting as a determinant of fairness, you undermine the principles of the system, you become a ruler, a dictator, you try to coerce others to conform to your own ideas about fairness, you want them to behave the way that satisfies you personally. Is it fair? a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
Conclusively, a fair transaction fee is a fee that doesn't contradict the rules of the system and is being chosen voluntarily by users themselves according to their personal notion of fairness.
December 28, 2020, 04:00:14 AM
A fair transaction fee should be free, otherwise it is a tax.
You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
Surprisingly, zero fee transaction was made possible during the early years of bitcoin as well as some blocks that has been created this year 2020 and 2019 as well.You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
2020 Block
[1] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/617750
[2] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/626507
2019 Block
[3] https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/600590
As far as I know, if we were moving bitcoin from one place to another without considering the transaction fees then there is a high probability that there will be a massive spam of bitcoin transaction every second.
December 28, 2020, 03:45:37 AM
The lower the better naturally, though it should have a reasonable scale based on the amount and the traffic (though preferably, the traffic factor should be eliminated somehow to have a constant transaction fee at all times if possible), especially since if most people would want to adopt BTC as a mode of payment. I mean, no one would be fine if they were to pay for their food via BTC to suddenly see that their around $10 meal go up to $15 due to the number of transactions in the network right?
A fair transaction fee should be free, otherwise it is a tax.
You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
That's not even fair, that's called being entitled/privileged. Miners also have to pay their fees, and you're basically asking for them to let you transact Bitcoin with their help for free. Additionally, miners are can be called the "middle man" between two parties. The examples you gave about having no fee? It's because you're just two parties trading directly. You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
When I trade peaches for pizza, there is no fee.
When I trade milk for eggs, there is no fee.
When I give fiat cash as a gift to another person, there is no fee.
When I move btc, there is a tax.
December 28, 2020, 03:20:36 AM
A fair transaction fee should be free, otherwise it is a tax.
You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
You are being taxed by miners to move your coins.
I guess you're being sarcastic here
.The bitcoin network fee always change and there's nothing that can be done about this. To me, a fair bitcoin transaction shouldn't be up to 0.5$. The Lightning Network fee are always very low compared to normal transactions. It's going to come in handy for paying for items.
December 28, 2020, 02:40:23 AM
Possibly cents. It's important to note that opening or closing a channel would incur some fees for it's an onchain transaction. My funding transactions are always executed at lower fees so my recent funding transaction was about $0.1 or so for $100 of TX. The fees for transacting within the Lightning network is practically negligible.
IMO, if you really want to determine a fair fee, you have to evaluate the costs per transaction in terms of the resources used. For LNs, they are usually fairly low cost to run as compared to on-chain transactions. As such, if you're talking in the context of LN, then the fair fee to charge is probably just several cents.
On-Chain transactions are out of the question and I believe you're not talking about it in this thread.
IMO, if you really want to determine a fair fee, you have to evaluate the costs per transaction in terms of the resources used. For LNs, they are usually fairly low cost to run as compared to on-chain transactions. As such, if you're talking in the context of LN, then the fair fee to charge is probably just several cents.
On-Chain transactions are out of the question and I believe you're not talking about it in this thread.
December 28, 2020, 02:32:08 AM
What do you think is a fair transaction fee for the Bitcoin transaction assuming that
a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
I think this is a fair question and it depends on what people are using bitcoin for. If you use it quite a bit, we'd prefer lower fees -- fees low enough to the point where it makes more sense to move money around as BTC instead of PayPal or Western Union or something. If you're just a HODLer, you probably don't care as much if fees are high because you will be performing less (or far fess) transactions.
In terms of absolute dollar figures I usually think in terms of percentages. If I want to send $100 and the recommended fee is $10, that's 10%, and too damn high (non-competitive with pre-existing money transfer systems). I'm more inclined to think 4% is the limit; 5% for smaller figures.
Ideally, the median tx should be as low as $0.10 when the mempool is cleared and as high as $5.00 at its busiest, but as we all know it currently encounters much higher spikes than that.
As for Lightning, LN tx fees need to remain competitive with the on-chain network or it loses one of its two advantages (the other being quicker transactions). So, until there's millions of transactions taking place on the network daily, hosting a Lightning node may not be a profitable endeavor.
December 27, 2020, 08:13:03 PM
What do you think is a fair transaction fee for the Bitcoin transaction assuming that
a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
a) Bitcoin is "scaled" to the Visa level so that there is enough space for every "coffee-transaction",
b) it remains as decentralized as now (~50k full nodes online),
c) users do not subsidize mining with tx fees and miners do not give "free ride" for users who haven't paid enough tx fees for "transaction processing"?
So how much should cost the tx processing in some abstract Lightning Network or other anticipated "highly-scalable network" designed to meet one's bold expectations?
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