What happens to BTC if just a few whales will buy all left supply?

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses.

and then ? what about the rest left supply of btc , how much is left to them ? but i did a calculation according to the data that you supplied . 18.5 million btc + 1 million btc is equals to 19.5 milion btc are now out so that means there are 1.5 million unmined btc left ? wew that was small , i didnt see that coming . i thought there still huge btc supply left .

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. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

few whales only ? why panic but if you say what if all whales buy the rest of the supply , thats more scary . we can experience a huge dip or pump that we never seen before

Ucy

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If much of the supply is concentrated in few hands, held especially by those that are connected or those that can be controlled/influence centrally to possibly maniplute the currency price, then you can't trust the price to be fair and to be influence only by real demand and supply.
One of the best solutions to this is to get majority of users fully control their coins, ensure that network currency isn't concentrated in few hands that can't be checked/balances by the network, and you could have internal mechanism controlled by Network members to regulate the supply to prevent external/internal manipulations by such whales or exchanges

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Halving happens every 4 years, and the last BTC to be mined will be around 2140. There’s no way these whales could buy the remaining BTCs without getting all of them mined, as what I have understood about your post (correct me if I’m wrong later). Even if these remaining BTCs are existing in circulation, I honestly think that the whales can’t afford buying them all. Ain’t happening.

jamesde

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From a practical standpoint, this situations is impossible.

There are so many individuals who will hold onto their bitcoin for dear life that there is virtually zero chance that all bitcoin existence will ever be owned by any party. In order for such an event to occur, it would literally take a hack of epic proportions or a critical design flaw in the blockchain technology which powers bitcoin.

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

And do you really believe that someone would buy all bitcoins? I think you may have heard this word: "HODL", these guys who do "HODL" are not going to sell their bitcoin so early especially when they expect to see 1 BTC = $500,000 on that day that they see 1 BTC = $500,000 became billionaires and this dream that seems like a joke Is a very important dream for these guys from "HODL". And if you see my explanation you can see that in this cryptocurrency market it is not possible for whales to buy all coins

romero121

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If few Whales in the market accumulate the leftover of the entire circulation surely the demand for bitcoin will decrease. As bitcoin is open sourced, anything accumulated for a long term will affect the demand and make people look for other alternatives available in the market. Such a situation won't prevail making entire circulation into the hands of few whales.

The market reacts to some extent. In each and everything common man's contribution makes a big change. Same is with bitcoin, maybe there arises unaffordability for common man but people will tend to invest based on one's ability.

Teresa_FX1

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by "whale" I mean real big money. For example big international invest funds like Vanguard or Pimco with trillions AUM. Theoretically they can easily buy the whole crypto-market with just tiny $250 billion

Quote from: BrewMaster on October 28, 2020, 01:38:37 PM

this topic is a very good example of how sometime the definition of "whale" is so ridiculous, as if a "whale" comes from another universe and has unlimited mony. it is more like a "boogeyman" rather than a "whale".

Teresa_FX1

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Agree, there is a very limited supply of BTC on exchanges, more holders and miners

Quote from: rdbase on October 28, 2020, 12:26:00 PM

Quote from: pixie85 on October 28, 2020, 12:22:08 PM

OP that's not possible. You don't understand how the free market works.

If even 16 million is really in circulation and accessible how much of it do you think is on exchanges? I'm sure it's less than half of it? Then how much is in open orders available to be bought? Half of that? So only 3-4 million BTC can be bought if you had enough money.

Even if you had unlimited money and wanted to pay 50 thousand USD for a coin right here right now you'd maybe be able to buy a few million coins.

I see what you are saying. Because those who are whales trying to buy up all the bitcoin so to monopolize it won't own all of it since there are those who mine it and if those whales are trying to make it more scarce, then they will be paying that $50k per coin then those who are mining the last few will just hold on it to. Wink

DarkDays

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Quote from: Lucius on October 28, 2020, 06:14:53 AM

Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

~snip~

Still, Bitcoin is on the open market, and we can't stop anyone from investing their money, but we can definitely prevent them from buying most of the coins if we invest also and hold for long term.

There is some truth in there with which I agree.
BTC is open to everybody, if whales were to buy in large amounts of BTC first they'd be losing on their investment as there might be other alternatives to spending large amounts of money, second if their actions were synchronised could be leading a market crush and nobody wants that.
Third, it would deflate the value of BTC in the long run and that's no attraction to any investor.

So in theory, it would lead to highly artificial bubble pumps and dumps, diminishing the true value and purpose of BTC but in practice if some whales wanted to do just that they probably could have the means for that but again it wouldn't be worth it.

BrewMaster

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this topic is a very good example of how sometime the definition of "whale" is so ridiculous, as if a "whale" comes from another universe and has unlimited mony. it is more like a "boogeyman" rather than a "whale".

hulla

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If few whales buy the remain Bitcoin to be mine then the decentralization of Bitcoin has no value but I believe every crypto enthusiast fully understands that they need to keep more BTC than spending it which is the reason why most crypto investors used Bitcoin as an asset than a currency.

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Let's imagine. If bitcoin were materialized in the form of a monetary unit minted and made of gold, on the territory of the ancient country of the Incas, then collecting and completely buying up all the coins would make sense for a philatelist. The reality is different for bitcoin, just like for a whale. Bitcoin is a digital asset that is more beneficial for the whale as a source of enrichment and replenishment of the bank account (s) in Switzerland. There is a means to make a profit on an ongoing basis, then it doesn't make sense for whales to completely buy a cue ball at all.

pixie85

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Quote from: rdbase on October 28, 2020, 12:26:00 PM

Quote from: pixie85 on October 28, 2020, 12:22:08 PM

OP that's not possible. You don't understand how the free market works.

If even 16 million is really in circulation and accessible how much of it do you think is on exchanges? I'm sure it's less than half of it? Then how much is in open orders available to be bought? Half of that? So only 3-4 million BTC can be bought if you had enough money.

Even if you had unlimited money and wanted to pay 50 thousand USD for a coin right here right now you'd maybe be able to buy a few million coins.

I see what you are saying. Because those who are whales trying to buy up all the bitcoin so to monopolize it won't own all of it since there are those who mine it and if those whales are trying to make it more scarce, then they will be paying that $50k per coin then those who are mining the last few will just hold on it to. Wink

Not only the miners but also holders. I don't believe that people who bought coins for a few million USD OTC @ $11000 and are holding it in cold wallets as a hedge would now move it all to binance or something because someone is setting up $50 thousand buy orders. I'd feel like it's a scam or the exchange was hacked.

Even if the orders would remain people would get smart and send some money to that exchange but setting higher and higher sell orders to test out how desperate these people are.

So if I had 10 BTC to sell I'd put up 1 for 60, 1 70 and so on. Soon they'd be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for each coin or not buying at all.

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Quote from: pixie85 on October 28, 2020, 12:22:08 PM

OP that's not possible. You don't understand how the free market works.

If even 16 million is really in circulation and accessible how much of it do you think is on exchanges? I'm sure it's less than half of it? Then how much is in open orders available to be bought? Half of that? So only 3-4 million BTC can be bought if you had enough money.

Even if you had unlimited money and wanted to pay 50 thousand USD for a coin right here right now you'd maybe be able to buy a few million coins.

I see what you are saying. Because those who are whales trying to buy up all the bitcoin so to monopolize it won't own all of it since there are those who mine it and if those whales are trying to make it more scarce, then they will be paying that $50k per coin then those who are mining the last few will just hold on it to. Wink

pixie85

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OP that's not possible. You don't understand how the free market works.

If even 16 million is really in circulation and accessible how much of it do you think is on exchanges? I'm sure it's less than half of it? Then how much is in open orders available to be bought? Half of that? So only 3-4 million BTC can be bought if you had enough money.

Even if you had unlimited money and wanted to pay 50 thousand USD for a coin right here right now you'd maybe be able to buy a few million coins.

Axelseseclevz

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Are you sure that all will sell to them? Always remember the number of bitcoins from smallest Satoshi was scattered to different people. I think it's difficult for the whales to buy all the remaining supply because they are not just the only people in crypto investing in bitcoin and also they need a huge amount of money to do this.

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This is a very hypothetical question and something that will not happen in reality. Only coins that are available in the market for selling could be bought, so it's not possible that someone buys complete Bitcoin supply. And whales don't have supernatural powers.
So, the answer to your question is that nothing is going to happen because such situation is not possible.

Dsdaq

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Firstly it will create scarcity also they can easily manipulate the price as well.

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Think simply, basically if whales try to accumulate all BTC it wouldn't possible at all. Because the current circulation supply holding by many people, they should agree to sell if whales want to accumulate all which isn't possible. But if it happens, means there will be less circulation supply. As a result, prices will be higher and higher, then it would be more difficult to accumulate more.

Anyway, it wouldn't happen at all since the price isn't very low.

lifeOK

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Like each market it will have benefit taking dips and whale dumping to scare out weak hands, but I doubt BTC will ever have serious dips below. What does whales plays out there's a purpose for it, everything is working out like as cycle. If you have strong holding then nothing to be worried. Be calm and let's them play their game.

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It’s a dumb question, whales can only buy coins that people are willing to sell & or newly mined coins that other people don’t buy. It’s impossible for a handful of people to buy up all existing coins because there are lots of people like me who aren’t selling.

HODLING = WINNING.

Teresa_FX1

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If you are talking about retail traders then it's just a tiny percentage.

Quote from: tbct_mt2 on October 28, 2020, 07:24:45 AM

If all supply is here, now, whales can buy all bitcoin at its today price. In life, it is not easy as that because there are unmined bitcoin and whales have to buy all left bitcoin many years in the future. Bitcoin adoption will increase and price of bitcoin will rise together with its adoption. This fact causes troubles for whales and they can not buy all bitcoin at $14000 or at $20000. They have to buy gradually and slowly and the price they buy will be higher years after years.

Moreover, daily trading volume is not depended on total circulating supply or total supply. It depends on how quick or slow people trade their bitcoin. This activity is more important than circulating supply or total supply (that can not be changed by traders or miners).

so98nn

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Quote from: avikz on October 28, 2020, 06:59:59 AM

Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Yes, if the whales can spend around $248 billion, [...]

Exactly. I was trying to make up this calculation only. I mean come on thats huge amount of money!

This is just impossible to be spent by any richest man in the globe. Know why? Any rich person will always think twice before he could invest his/her money into the market. They do the risk analysis and then invest and thats why they are rich.

Moreover, if they buy all of it themselves then how do you think there will be liquidity in the market ?. How they will earn the profits? Lot of questions before anyone can invest that kind of money.

Teresa_FX1

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Yes, I mean all the coins in circulation now. For example Grayscale's been buying alot from miners. Thanks for your intersting opinion.

Quote from: arcmetal on October 28, 2020, 06:15:24 AM

Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Now, do you mean all the remaining coins left to mine, or all the coins in circulation now ?

Either way, this is a ridiculous situation, and not something that would really happen.

In the light of nonsensical, I can give an extremely nonsensical answer to show how this is not something to worry about.

Let's says the whales start buying up the last of the few remaining coins, as you put it. This would shoot the price up to the stratosphere. The market cap for bitcoin currently sits at over 250 billion. Then the remaining coins that have not been bought will try to equate to that value, so one can say that this would push the price of the last bitcoin to over a billion (to keep this simple). Maybe it hits 5 billion. Whatever, this is nonsensical.

Now we are in a situation were there are no more coins left to buy, and then someone like me starts to sell a single bitcoin. I'd begin by selling tiny amounts at first so that I could draw out as much value as possible. If I am careful enough I could sell my one bitcoin for a billion dollars (since no one else is selling because all the whales are holding the last bitcoins).

OK, on the other hand, yes, please, all whales out there please buy up every last remaining bitcoin.

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Quote from: Nalbo on October 28, 2020, 07:56:14 AM

I don't think buying all the left supply by a or a few whales is even possible. You can just calculate the remaining supply with current price as you can't get all those coins for the current price. Even a small buy would make bitcoin increase in price. Buying a lot would keep on increasing it till you can't afford it anymore. And not all coins are in sell order, so you can't buy them all even if you have infinite to spend.

Its possible to buy but the only challenge's I found there is the method to manage it without lost, looking at it from another perspective the possibility to purchase all is there, but it will caused market liquidity or manipulation of bitcoin price, but since it will be rigid to control the needful or chance of buying all is not really interesting, in all ramifications buying all will cause or make bitcoin to be difficult to purchase

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Let's say they managed that, what will they do next? How long will they be able to hold it without exhausting their own capital? They will have no choice but to unload them if they want to stay liquid. The question is at what price? They can try to manipulate and pump it but that will still be decided by the market. If demand remains high, good for these hoarders. If people decides to move to another market/crypto and let BTC price tank, then disaster for them. Remember, these guys are investors and they want to take profit as much as possible.

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They’d shoot themselves on their own foot since most people would sell at their faces and move eventually to other coins where decentralization is dtill practiced and not only a few whales toss coins around each other. I’m pretty sure most whales know that even if they can buy a significant portion of bitcoin, it wouldn’t be of any good to them since this will only leave their position vulnerable for dumping, and they can’t do it faster than those with only a handful to throw. Most of them only buy a certain sizable amount just to be in the game, and not to be in control. It’s not gonna happen, and if did, they just fucked themselves over since they’ll only be the ones selling bags to each other.

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There is no possibility of whales buy the left Bitcoin in the market becasue Bitcoin is in the open market where anyone can buy the said Bitcoin. Those whales can only buy some few stash in the market to influence the general market for their gains, though, the whales can't have the full control on the general market because of market demands.

Serious475

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

If whales managed to buy all the remaining bitcoin, mass adoption will be having no chance to occur because bitcoin will be all about the business of that mentioned whales. Mass adoption will be not possible because bitcoin cannot be use all over the world if many of the people holds so much of it and if mass adoption manage to occur with those cases, many people will be poor and will be left behind. I hope that bitcoin community doesn't change and whales manage to use bitcoin in a right way to make the economy balance.

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

If a few whales control all Bitcoins,the BTC market will disappear and Bitcoin will become worthless,due to the lack of market liquidity.Your hypothetical situation will never happen in real life,because the crypto whales need the army of small traders and users,in order to "exploit" them and make profits out of price manipulation and forcing the crypto newbies to sell their coins when there's panic in the crypto markets.
There are also two additional reason why the whales can't buy all Bitcoins.
1.They don't have enough capital.
2.Buying large amounts of BTC will drive the Bitcoin price to the moon,so buying more BTC will become more expensive and difficult.

Nalbo

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I don't think buying all the left supply by a or a few whales is even possible. You can just calculate the remaining supply with current price as you can't get all those coins for the current price. Even a small buy would make bitcoin increase in price. Buying a lot would keep on increasing it till you can't afford it anymore. And not all coins are in sell order, so you can't buy them all even if you have infinite to spend.

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Quote from: avikz on October 28, 2020, 06:59:59 AM

Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Yes, if the whales can spend around $248 billion, then they can own al bitcoin currently circulating in the market, which is highly unlikely to happen! Also if onsly a handful of whales own all bitcoins, there will no circulation of bitcoin within the market so bitcoin will be pretty much dead. No one would want to invest in a dead currency so bitcoin's value will become zero! So whales will not get any profit out of it, so they wouldn't do that either! Hope it makes sense!

That's my take on this situation. If only few whales will hold the remaining bitcoin, it will not create demand from the market as they are holding it. Without demand and supply in action, the market is dull and don't think that it will be valuable if there is no market movement. Right now, the market is dictated by demand and supply and whales may want to possess large btc holdings but they won't aim to get the large percentage of it.

tbct_mt2

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If all supply is here, now, whales can buy all bitcoin at its today price. In life, it is not easy as that because there are unmined bitcoin and whales have to buy all left bitcoin many years in the future. Bitcoin adoption will increase and price of bitcoin will rise together with its adoption. This fact causes troubles for whales and they can not buy all bitcoin at $14000 or at $20000. They have to buy gradually and slowly and the price they buy will be higher years after years.

Moreover, daily trading volume is not depended on total circulating supply or total supply. It depends on how quick or slow people trade their bitcoin. This activity is more important than circulating supply or total supply (that can not be changed by traders or miners).

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Yes, if the whales can spend around $248 billion, then they can own al bitcoin currently circulating in the market, which is highly unlikely to happen! Also if onsly a handful of whales own all bitcoins, there will no circulation of bitcoin within the market so bitcoin will be pretty much dead. No one would want to invest in a dead currency so bitcoin's value will become zero! So whales will not get any profit out of it, so they wouldn't do that either! Hope it makes sense!

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

It's pretty difficult for any whales to buy the remaining supply. Actually this is the best part about btc. Limited supply means that whenever some one tries to buy a big chunk price would adjust itself to the remaining supply of Bitcoin thereby making the remaining supply much more valuable and making it even more harder for someone to buy. But this obviously won't be a good sign for retail users as the utility of btc would be more or less over. You won't see much transactions in BTC technically controlling would mean holding and nothing more.

Vaculin

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Winding down.

They have been manipulating it already but they won't do that forever as they just can't simply do it.
Bitcoin as it stays longer the adoption will increase and with the increase of adoption, the manipulation power of the whales will decrease.

Just think it this way, whales buy low and sell at a profit but the market trend will not be forever as it will change overtime especially if people will be more educated as they will make a matured decision.

Bitcoin will be successful with massive adoption, and that means we are enjoying its use case.

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1- Who will sell them? Not me ... the sale is optional. I will not sell my last BTC before 1 mln $, many may have similar approach. they will have to push price to they sky to do this. Invest trillions.
2- Owning a major share is not controlling. 51% of miners are controlling bitcoin not "few whales" who have most of coins
3 - It's not easy to control price of something that is that big. Even if few whales will do it it will still be few whales. If one of them will try to dump price to 1$ others will buy and opposite. And even if it would be 1 whale owning 60% of BTC there is still an entire market against him and others $ whales that would like to become BTC whales.

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

Now, do you mean all the remaining coins left to mine, or all the coins in circulation now ?

Either way, this is a ridiculous situation, and not something that would really happen.

In the light of nonsensical, I can give an extremely nonsensical answer to show how this is not something to worry about.

Let's says the whales start buying up the last of the few remaining coins, as you put it. This would shoot the price up to the stratosphere. The market cap for bitcoin currently sits at over 250 billion. Then the remaining coins that have not been bought will try to equate to that value, so one can say that this would push the price of the last bitcoin to over a billion (to keep this simple). Maybe it hits 5 billion. Whatever, this is nonsensical.

Now we are in a situation were there are no more coins left to buy, and then someone like me starts to sell a single bitcoin. I'd begin by selling tiny amounts at first so that I could draw out as much value as possible. If I am careful enough I could sell my one bitcoin for a billion dollars (since no one else is selling because all the whales are holding the last bitcoins).

OK, on the other hand, yes, please, all whales out there please buy up every last remaining bitcoin.

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

~snip~

18.5 million+ is the total amount mined so far, and what is available for trading is much less and probably does not amount to more than 2-3 million BTC on the open market and through OTC. The number of lost BTCs is just a matter of speculation, there are no reliable ways to define it even approximately.

Not only a few whales can buy all the BTC, it takes a huge amount of money for that - and the more demand grows, the higher is the price, so they need even more money. Still, Bitcoin is on the open market, and we can't stop anyone from investing their money, but we can definitely prevent them from buying most of the coins if we invest also and hold for long term. They have large amounts of money, but our strength is in the numbers Wink

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Quote from: Teresa_FX1 on October 28, 2020, 05:14:55 AM

There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

They can easily manipulate it in the price they want to.and many of the small traders will buy and see if they are able to buy it cheaper.

If that things happen I don't think someone continue to have interest buying it ,if they know that there are whales that controling price. if that thing happen I'm sure others people or more of the investorrs will prefer to just look for another crypto currency that is not easily manipulated.

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No good for BTC and the idea of decentralization if it will be controlled by whales or some Wall street bankers.

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There is 18.5 million BTC in circulation right now, more than 1 million BTC is lost or in dormant addresses, the biggest crypto funds and exchanges keep buying it. What happens if just a few whales will buy and control them all?

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