Topic: What if bitcoin was PLAN B by the Goverments? (Read 4295 times)

QE has fail terribly for the middle class but it succeded in the purpose of having increasing stocks and real estate nominal prices which benefits the lucky few.

...and furthermore, they don't care about anything as they are allready overpaid bunch of lazyasses.
But the problem is that they are tied with banks, their campaigns are funded by many financial giants, and thy sir are quite powerful.

I am getting extremely tired of this bullshit theory that keeps on repeatedly being brought up by people who are just being blatantly stupid, governments are not this all powerful force that can read our minds, they're humans just like anyone else.

and anonymous transactions and coin mixers are there to make the job more interesting ..
bitcoin could be (ab)used by those in power, but i certanly dont believe they created it.

In the letter he was explaining how the paradox can be used to prove Frege's system inconsistent -- a system that's a bit removed from set theory. However, the paradox applies quite generally and is often presented in terms of set theory, so I'll focus on sets.

Suppose we are working in a naive set theory where whenever we have a property P(x) we can form a set {x|P(x)} -- the set of all x satisfying P(x). Russell's Paradox gives a particular instance that leads to a problematic set: R := {x| x is not a member of x}. R is in R if and only if R is not in R, a contradiction. In short: this kind of naive set theory with all sets like {x|P(x)} is inconsistent.

There were many proposals how to put set theory on a sound footing. The one that gained the most followers is ZF set theory. In ZF you can make sets using certain ZF primitives. Thes primitives allow sets like like {x in X | P(x)} -- separating out the elements from a preexisting set X -- and sets like {f(x)|x in X} -- replacing the elements from a preexisting set X. You can't form a set like {x|P(x)} unless you can express it in terms of the ZF primitives.

Thanks for your interest. I enjoy thinking about these things.


Well, if something like Russell's Paradox is new to someone, then it's fair that they need time to understand it. I'll agree with you to that extent.

What I was trying to say is that if someone can't understand Russell's Paradox it betrays an inability to comprehend basic logic (like Modus Ponens). If someone cannot comprehend basic logic, when they study other subjects what they are probably doing is the kind of rote learning that allows them to repeat things. Basic logic is required to analyse a statement and start asking the right questions to justify or refute the statement.

I understand the paradox although I can't understand what flaw in the system of sets gave birth to it, or how to prevent it from happening. Could you explain?

I don't think lack of understanding of some mathematical paradox is proof that therefore you don't understand politics and economics. Someone could study one thing and not the other.

It's Russell's Paradox: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/russell-paradox/
It caused a revolution in the foundations of mathematics in the early 1900s.

I can also relate it to the topics in this thread in this sense: Russell's Paradox is actually quite easy to understand.

Topics like economics or climate are nowhere near this simple. If someone claims to have certainty on issues like fiscal/monetary policy or climate change, then a good test is to see if they can understand something simple like Russell's Paradox. If they can't, then it's very likely they are simply parroting the expected lines of their social group.

Plan A is quantitative easing makes the economy all right and every body is happy especially the central bankers

so you're saying it was actually planned by 4chan

Plan B maybe? But what was plan A? We don't really know so this whole thread is moot.

By that, I believe Satoshi's next work is on something that in comparison, makes Bitcoin seem trivial.

Tell your friend he should leave the theories to scientists... or just... smarter people than him.

Ha. Is your friend the type of person that thinks 9/11 was an inside job and Ancient Aliens is a documentary? Someone can only trace illegal blackmarket transactions if the user is not very careful so it's not very good for that.

And all the math and cryptography are there just because.

A friend of mine had this theory that the gov created bitcoin to keep track of the illegal black market transactions.

The market cap goes from 5 billion to 50 trillion.

That would be something. What would happen if BTC were to be used by the government?

unlikely, central banks hate bitcoin as do most governments. US only tolerates bitcoin because it can regulate the crypto aggressively

Doesn't make sense for it to be a plan B. I could see this being some type of epic conspiracy story of sorts but the evidence isn't there. Stricter government regulation definitely do not help the price nor the development of Bitcoin, so I doubt it's something created by the people that want to destroy it.

Can you explain what the **** does it mean?

If people insist on posting Bertrand Russell quotes, it's a shame to leave out the most important one.

In fact, we don't know anything about bitcoin creator- Satoshi.
It can be whole organization, not just some average Japanese guy
But, if us or any other government is behind this, I can't understand what is their motivation and reasons for starting bitcoin.
Any idea?

I've posted 14 sentences, a link, 6 quotes, AND I've quoted 8 links!  So that's a far more meaningful amount of copying and pasting than your paltry amount of copying & pasting. 

It was five sentences, four links, and one quote, none of which you responded to in any meaningful way. And "info-meme" is redundant.

Who gives a shit? It's some other man's profits, not yours. Don't be daft. You don't pay for things you can get for free, do you? Every body pirates, welcome to the twenty first century.

that is impossible, because bitcoin is not thought to be used as a massive money transmission system, you need to have some knowledge.

A guy starts a phrase with "The whole problem with the world is..." and ends the same phrase with "fools are so sure of themselves and wise people are full of doubts" (right cause a person who knows what's the whole problem with the world is certainly not sure about anything).

But hummus is just fancy refried beans.  Deny that if you want, but I am prepared to start a new topic on the subject if necessary.

No, because guacamole is more than just plain avocado. You would have just a holy avocado.

This is copyright violation.

If you're pulling out both the ontological argument and The Room, then I'll have to combine an image of Kurt Gödel with the quote "You're tearing me apart!"

Or let people use their imaginations.

Yes, and that actually confirms that government cannot bebehind this, unless they have a way to stop it.

Oh yeah?  You think you're so smart?  Well there's one ontological proof that you hadn't planned on!  Here it is:






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpfBRLJUJVM  - The Room (2003) Full Movie

Awesome quote! How true it is too, especially here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roSdU9H3_Yg

Bitcoin is so disruptive technology that it can't be stopped. Its just too good simple as that.

Surely you meant to say, "Picture of Bertrand Russell with caption, and then Youtube link"

"I owe my life to smoking." - Bertrand Russell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80oLTiVW_lc

With your attitude, there's no way I will be able to call it a day.

Right, you're not making anything.  You're just posting a Youtube link and calling it a day.

+1 for runpaint.

LOL!  2 Youtube links & an info-meme.  If that's the "information" that makes you think, then why are you using it as a substitute for thinking?  Oh...because you fear thought.  Never mind.

Please don't take my words out of context. I'm not making a derivative work.

Meanwhile on reality ranch. Phew, good thing I know you won't watch that video. It might have presented information that challenges or even threatens your carefully constructed, ego-defending worldview!

Everyone knows youtube videos are how Satan gets into the loins of children. Anyway, you definitely should NOT watch this video about revolution, or this one about climate change, or this one about god!

Information can be so terrifying, because it makes you think!

That's because communism fights a slow cultural war, infiltrating the media, universities, politics, even religion, and very gradually changing the mindset of people without telling it's communism. When you least expect, you are living in a socialist country. That's known as the strategy of Antonio Gramsci, who makes Machiavelli look like an innocent fool.

You don't understand what references are or how they work, do you? A reference is a source that you use as a basis for a derivative work (in this case, a video), but not using content verbatim not just posting the link and calling it a day. It's a process of understanding the topics in the references and then reaching your own conclusions. That's what the guy in the video did. The references are added so that if other people question their point of view, they can at least know where he got it from and why he believes things work the way they do.

Exactly.  There is no real definition of poverty that applies to American citizens, but there will always be a "bottom 20%" no matter how well-off they are.  

Aye. I'm one of those old enough to remember the fall of the Warsaw Pact (heck, I changed my major - was aerospace engineering - when it happened because of the job market impact I foresaw). It absolutely astounds me how quickly a new and mis-educated generation has arisen decrying capitalism and proclaiming socialism/communism all over again. You can tell them they are being stupid. You can explain to them how they are being foolish. But I have a feeling they are just going to have to experience it the hard way, all over again. I just wish they wouldn't take the rest of us with them into the economic toilet bowl.

I just hope the demagogues and economic charlatans teaching these kids in the universities and schools get what is coming to them. In the meantime maybe we ought to be air-dropping Thomas Sowell books into American universities like some of the old efforts behind the Iron Curtain to wake up the brainwashed zombies.

If you really had compassion for the poor, you'd help them yourselves. With your own time, effort and money. Not by raging against some imaginary bad guy and demanding that the "system" be fixed while you do little or nothing to help the poor in practical ways right now. Set yourself a target (mine is 15%, plus vacation time for volunteer work each year, etc.) for charity and then try to exceed it.

They love power, they love dictators, and they love forcing people to do and say what they're told.  In other words, they hate freedom.  They fantasize about petty revenge against "the rich" or "the Jews" or "Larry from Pizza Hut who fired me for smoking weed on the clock, he's just a hater cause he's old."

One reason for their destructive policies is that well-adjusted people from functional families don't buy into that hatred so easily.  They know that their main demographic is whiny brats whose fathers didn't pay them enough attention, so they use the government's power to leave millions of children fatherless.

But that's mostly beside the point.  The main point is that socialism doesn't work.  

After the fiery explosion of the Hindenburg, people stopped smoking cigarettes while riding on huge hydrogen-filled balloons.  In fact, it kind of put them off the whole idea of hydrogen-filled balloons altogether.  But people can see the fiery explosions of China, North Korea, the USSR, East Germany - and they still want to go for another ride.  It's hard to understand, but some of them are obviously in it for the explosions.

It would be interesting to get on the record in advance of looking at the data what percentage of the profits by (low level) employees would be their "fair share" according to Beliathon. And then to explicitly look at the data and determine whether or not it's fair.

I have a feeling Beliathon would be right that they wouldn't be getting their "fair share" according to him. Usually socialists define "fair share" as "more than whatever they're getting now."

So the person who uploaded the video is able to give references and even talk about his ideas?  Good thing the video isn't just a link telling you to go somewhere else, or you wouldn't know what to believe.

Ah, that empathy and compassion really bleeds through the screen, doesn't it?

@runpaint: You're right, and thanks for taking up the argument. Unfortunately we're in the minority. One of the big advantages of bitcoin is it helps protect us from people who are too dumb to learn from history what a disaster socialism is.

And if you just read that and thought, "But hey, why is socialism bad?" You could start by counting the dead. It's one metric, and obviously not perfect. But seriously, how many people starved to death or were directly killed during socialist regimes like Stalin or Mao? And those are just of the international socialist variety. You're playing with an ideology that doesn't work, can't work, is anti-individual liberty, and leads to people being suppressed, starved, imprisoned and killed. Over. And over. And over. And over again. And people are still drawn to it.

The only reason millions of Americans haven't starved under Obama is because he's such a failure at implementing his desired policies.

You don't need to. The description includes links to all its references, including NASA and the Nature journal.

Not so fast.  Let's keep talking about "fair shares".

When a company loses money and/or goes out of business, what fair share do the employees have in that?  What does it cost them?  

As for Wal-Mart, I'm sure you don't really want to get into the details of how much the employees get paid and what they contribute to the company.  (Hint:  the employees keep more of the profits than the company keeps)

Capitalism apologist 101:
I think I just threw up a little in my mouth. We're done here, let's agree to disagree.

Sometimes nothing, but they still get paid.  Sometimes they lose the company millions of dollars.  But they still get paid.  Because the owners of the company are slaves to the employees.


Percentage of what?  Profits?  Most employees aren't paid a percentage of profits, because they still get paid even if the company loses money.

If workers were paid a percentage of profits, then they would end up owing the company money sometimes.  Is that what you want?  For poor people to work all year for a factory, and then get paid nothing but instead owe money to the factory? 



They're not being given anything, they're earning money.  They obviously agreed that it was fair, because it's the amount of money they agreed to work for. 

If the employees were paid a "fair share", then they would sometimes lose money.  But that involves reality, something you're not familiar with.

 

Wal-Mart employees all have the option to own stock.  Most of them sell it immediately.  They choose to stay poor, and that is part of having freedom. 

In fact, being "poor" in America is a lot like owning slaves - you get to sit around all day eating free food, while others are forced to do all the labor to provide for you. 



Youtube links are great for people who don't have anything of their own to say.  But as I just said, I don't watch Youtube videos and then come back to debate you as if you're the one who made those arguments.  If I wanted to watch that video and respond to it, I would just make my own video on Youtube, and then message boards would have no content except a series of Youtube links.

Be specific. How much do they generate for the company? What percentage of that are they allowed to keep in exchange for their labor? What percentage is profit for the CEO? What percentage is profit for the shareholders? Run this analysis on the average corporate chain bottom level employee and I promise you a pattern will emerge quickly.

The employees aren't being given a fair share, not even close. And you know, the more you do this - the more time you spend examining the reality and thinking about it, the more it begins to seem like owning stocks is not so far removed from owning slaves.

By the way, I dare you to watch this: Conversations with great minds - Dr Richard Wolff part 1 and part 2. It's a professor of economics deconstructing your fear of socialism and why it exists.

That's adorable! Do you live on a farm?

Speaking of PLAN B, it could very well be an option for Greece's financial banking crisis, due it's looming "Grexit":

http://www.coindesk.com/markets-weekly-slow-week-bitcoin-price-grexit-looms/

If Greece exits the Eurozone, selects Bitcoin as their currency replacement....whoa, look out!  

it will not be plan b because they can't control it, so they don't like it

I don't watch Youtube videos. 

Well they are doing their pathetic best to get involved, with Gavin and his little fork, with the Ethereum scam and so on. Not much of a showing so far, but still, keep your axe sharp.

I don't think the goverment is involved in Bitcoin because they can't control the protocol wereas they control "the protocol" of fiat creation.

To clear some confusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWXoRSIxyIU

Bitcoin can't give governments control over the currency, which they very likely are going to want. The only way I see Bitcoin being helpful for states would be to buy a certain amount on the (off?)-chance of it becoming big enough to tackle the regular financial systems and handle the volumes involved when states handle money.

Could be...but why should a government bother with something as small as Bitcoin market cap (relative to a govt's balance sheet not yours or mine) unless it is a bankrupt banana republic ?

Yeah, why not? If only everything that we do can go perfectly according to plan but as we all know, we'll always need something as a backup in case plan A doesn't work out.

Actually I, did read, my other posts.

In contrast to you, I actually read, your other posts. So, I can tell that you blame socialists for a lot of things.
What are my problems? Currently there is a blizzard(at least you would call it that in the USA) and I hope it ends, before I go home. But I don't blame jews for that.

So you can't even answer "What are your problems" or "What do you want".  Instead you say "posts on the internet" are "everything". 

You are really a funny guy.
On the one hand, you tell me, that I shouldn't blame a small group(which I don't recall doing) on the other hand you blame socialists for everything.

It think it is very plausible that bitcoin is a (gov) think tank product.

Yeah maybe it was the CIA. Maybe the first million BTC mined are sitting in wallets owned by the CIA. Just waiting... If the world economy collapsed and BTC was the new gold standard... BTC might hit $10,000 or so pretty quick. Then if the govnt had a million coins.. they would be sitting pretty with a huge amount of wealth on hand. Interesting idea anyways.

How many are there? 

The Marxist campaign started over 100 years ago, and it hasn't ended yet.  That's why there are so many "rich people (like Jews) are evil" posts, everywhere on the internet.

It's easy to blame all your problems on a small group of people, and stir up hatred based on the idea that getting rid of those people will solve all your problems.

But what are your problems, really?  What do you want?  Will you ever be satisfied with anything?  Of course not. 

By the way, why are you calling Obama a communist based on the one quote I mentioned?  Are you saying that Obama calls himself a communist?

Has the election campaign in the USA already started?
Or why are there so many "socialism is bad"/"Obama is a communist"/etc.-posts lately?

By rewarding failure and thereby creating more of it.

Black families in the United States were the fastest-growing income class, until the 1960s when the Marxists decided to sabotage them with harmful government policies.

"You can have this free apartment - but only if you're a single mother.  Your husband has to leave the family if you and your kids want to stay here."

Guess what?  Offer it to enough people, and some of them will take you up on it.

The Socialist policies in our government actively worked to destroy families and keep people in cycles of generational poverty, dependent on the government and helpless.  Less husbands and fathers, more poverty and more prison sentences.



Which country would that be?  In the United States, about 50% of the population pays taxes.  The other half gets free money from the ones who pay taxes.  And the ones getting free money are the ones under the most government control with the least hope for a better future. 

If Capitalism has failed, it's only because Socialism took over a long time ago.  But don't point to Socialism and call it Capitalism. 

They get paid for what they generate.  


Technology. That's irrelevant and moot since we aren't time travelers.[/quote]

Oh, so quality of life is irrelevant.  Then how can we define poverty?  That's right, just point fingers and make up hateful rhetoric.

Have you no compassion?  Don't you care that the poor have been lifted out of all their problems?  They don't starve, they aren't consumed with disease and filth, they live lives of comfort and leisure, their children don't die.  No, you don't care.  You want to reverse that progress and send us all back into lives of misery.


By your stupid ideas.  Capitalism pushed us forward 1000 years, and Marxism has been chipping away at it.  Keep it up, maybe you'll eventually bring it all down and destroy society like you want.

LOL

edit:  wait.. seems farfetched at first but the CIA was allegedly involved in lots of other stuff to raise money like drug trafficking...  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US

if they really started bitcoin as an experiment to create a new economy where they can raise funds then more power to them. 

If inbcase it was a government project, then they would definitely have a way to control it.

Bitcoin isn't their Plan B. They would never introduce something they can't control.


How does Socialism hurt the poor or lower the quality of life for everyone? And why do you not include Democratic capitalism? Surely that has failed too?

Well bitcoin is decentralized, so I don't think the government would be behind something like this.

I don't think it was by government but after seeing how it works and the concept of blockchain, we might see something similar from them, it will be more centralized of-course with restrictions.

Actually it's not far farfetched that BTC itself could have been created by the gov or some agency. I belive the theory of Bitcoin being invented by someone government related is very plausible, but so what? the code is open source. It's like complaining about TOR being invented by the US army, so what if then serves good for the people.

The wealth is generated from the labor of the workers, an increasing number of which are poor and getting poorer.

How could anyone claim to be ignorant of this very well documented and controversial phenomenon and expect to be taken seriously? What's next, climate change or Holocaust denial?

Debt, and slavery to it. If you have $0 in assets and owe $20,000, you have a negative net worth. We have also recreated a modern form of indentured servitude with never-ending unpaid internships.

Technology. That's irrelevant and moot since we aren't time travelers.

Is there no compassion in your heart?





Nothing like being pushed backwards in time 40 years economically in the span of 5 years.

QFT

Related: Sunset of the State

Son, governments are what the world needs to be saved from, not what the world needs to be saved by.

Bitcoin is too innovative for a governement to create it.

If satoshi nakamoto was the government they wouldn't have given the source code away. Blockchain technology has given people freedom in that it gave them a choice to use whatever cryptocurrency they like.

If one day bitcoin becomes centralized people will move on to another one, same if a fed or govcoin was to be implemented.

Elite wants a one world currency that they control, there are already over 500 cryptocurrency , this is certainely not a government set up imo ( banks closing down account dealing with bitcoin speak volumes)

In Japanese, Nakamoto means ‘central origin’, while Satoshi means ‘clear thinking, quick witted, wise’ i.e intelligent. The name can therefore be translated to mean ‘Central Intelligent’.

It could always be a one sided government conspiracy.

Marxism, Communism, and Socialism have failed repeatedly, and have always hurt the poor and lowered the quality of life for everyone.  But despite repeated failures, they still succeed in spreading the same failed ideas on the internet.

For example, how could anyone believe that wealth comes from the poor?  How could any serious person believe that "the poor are getting poorer"? 

If a man has approximately $0.00 worth of assets, how could he get any poorer?  How is it that the quality of life for "the poor" in many nations is higher than the quality of life enjoyed by Kings and Queens throughout most of history?

In the United States, the poorest families have a higher life expectancy than the average member of royalty had, 200 years ago.  They also have more leisure and entertainment, TV, internet, cell phones, Playstations, heat in the winter and cold air in the summer, a different set of clean new clothes for every day of the week, and their choice of meat and fresh vegetables 3 times a day.  In the United States, the average "poor" person is not only well-fed, but actually obese.

But somehow people look at the wealth of our poor and say it must be changed.  They want to make our poor people live in the mud and die of terrible diseases.  Just like Obama said:  it doesn't matter if we actually help the poor, as long as we hurt the rich.  That's the main thing, so it will be "fair".

And congratulations, it's working.  All the progress that came from freedom is slowly being turned around, as we're allowed less freedom over our own money.  Socialist centralized control is reversing all those 200-year upward trends.

I like this, but you have got the good and bad mixed-up!

QE is already failing. QE will continue to fail because the effect is removing wealth from (and reducing quality of life for) the many poor. That wealth is redistributed in increasing concentration to a tiny few ultra rich. That's what austerity does in practice. So while our collective pain is growing in magnitude, our collective empathy, amplified by internet social connection, is raising our awareness of and sensitivity to this suffering.

Sooner or later a breaking point is reached and humanity will abandon this system of suffering for a more efficient and egalitarian system of distributing resources. This system will be a more compassionate one, to reflect the increasingly empathic nature of human civilization. Modern capitalism is a very, very over-engineered system. Good engineering is not what you add, it's what you take away. Bitcoin is like Occam's razor in that regard, but it doesn't solve the greater problem of capitalism. This is the beginning of the end of capitalism folks, and there's little anyone can do to change that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpTAuivTqKE - Plug for Professor Wolff's Economic Update February 2015. There's some great stuff about Greece in there.

Dont worry... Government(s) wont work together. They'll compete each other.

The world went into financial collapse in the 2008 and we are still not recovered from it and eurozone is struggling with debt..

 Governments decided the  Medicine to cure this was through bailing out those failing banks and then stimulate the economy with Quantitative Easing i.e by printing lot of  money and giving it to the 1% so that it would trickle down to the 99%..

But Quantitative easing did not work out! it only further concentrated wealth among the 1% and it caused currency inflation and debt..

So a massive currency crisis because if inflation is looming! japanese Yen, Russian ruble, canadian dollar al of them have lost a lot of value..

So is bitcoin a kind of PLAN B since it is deflationary and will save the world if this QE led project fails and currency crisis occurs..

and if it is, then if there is no currency crisis happening and world economy is back on track then bitcoin may simply go away without any real purpose....