Topic: What is the future of bitcoin? Commodity, currency or smth else? (Read 751 times)

as we know and has become a public secret and does not need to be exaggerated, bitcoin is used as an investment for certain people here, in general people who have more money are not people who lack (you can say Investors / whales like we said),
and most of the people who know bitcoin to take advantage of the results they trade (trader category) ,
basically the point of view of the role of bitcoin itself is different for everyone (just my opinion)

In my opinion in the future, things will not experience much change, it seems like it will be the same as now, only in my opinion in the future. the price of bitcoin will be very much high. but the buying and selling process will still exist. only difference is the price of bitcoin will be very high.

I share your opinion, it is something like digital gold, which in the past was used as a currency and as a store of wealth. The number of daily transactions shows that it is partially used as a currency, but as bitcoin is so good at storing value it makes much more sense to spend the fiat you have and save your bitcoin, because in 1 or 2 cycles it will be worth much more.

What the future of bitcoin will look like is still a question. but now it shows bitcoin is being used by people as a store of wealth, people are trying to collect and hold bitcoin hoping the bitcoin value will increase as much as possible to make a profit for them.

As of today, we can still use bitcoin as a form of payment, but most people tend not to do this since they think that it is very wasteful since the value of bitcoin has increased over time.
According to me, bitcoin is better suited to acting as a commodity or asset than as a currency.

thats not what a commodity is
its a raw item used to create other items

bitcoin for years was just bitcoin. coins never moved off the network(and still dont)

however the sidechains/pegged altnets stuff now happening is creating tokens/new units based from locked bitcoin. so its now presenting itself as something like a commodity

(my personal view is bitcoins never leave the blockchain so these other network units are not bitcoin.. however a cake is not flour.. plastic is not oil. but you cant make a cake without flour and you cant make plastic without oil. so im warming to the idea that its becoming seen as a commodity(though have reservations as to how strong the connection is from item to items linkage/requirement))

this is not to say that some of these sidechains and altnets are bitcoin. or reliant on bitcoin because many sidechains and altnets have proven by not having deep code HARD rules to audit and peg their units to only work with bitcoin.
but bitcoin could, if some new project was to start that could truly be shown to be a product of bitcoin,. then yes bitcoin would be a commodity

i have yet to see a sidechain or altnet that truly held strong to a unbreakable rule that truly people could trust the pegging mechanism would never break though.

and no. this is not an oppertunity to advertise your sidechains or altnets

It is all of these at the present, but in a time after we are gone I would say it would be more of a commodity, as in a store of value like precious metals more so than being used as currency like it is today.

anything can be a currency. its only requirement is being traded in exchange for something else.
sex can be a form of currency in some relationships.. she gives you regular sex you give her a ferrari(or shoes. depending on how great the sex is)

how popular a currency becomes, then relies on its features benefits and ofcourse its utility.
some currencies get classed as money when they reach a saturation point of a whole wide community dominating it with using only one currency for the area/nation/community
whether its forced upon them by national laws. or its utility presents usefulness to naturally be adopted

as for being taxed. well if that is of the mindset of bitcoin replacing fiat. then sure the government will still want some tax income. so it would be taxed..
but bitcoin does not fail being a currency just because its not legal tender or replaces fiat.

as for the tax.
its not a question of is it still currency if its taxed.. as the two are not things that need to co-exist to define each other

well in my view. taxes are only necessary if those taxes are then used for necessary things. so if asking should bitcoin ever get taxed. it would have to be thought about if bitcoin saturates to being used alot more by the masses to a point that its destablising the nations systems EG social security or funding fire,ambulance,police.
where by the question remains is the taxes they propose actually going to fund societies needs. or just going into some elite guys pockets

It seems that bitcoin plays different roles today. Can bitcoin be a currency even if transactions are taxed?

Taxes are necessary to keep the state system, education system, health care system, etc. running. Therefore, even crypt circulations will be taxed.

fiat moneys purpose is to be spent. inflation and QE drops value to push people into spending it and push money to continue moving/changing hands/ so that they can tax it at each hand it passes..

if a fiat economy was to be deflationary, people would save and hoard money and not spend it which means governments couldnt tax it as much.

think about it. (imagine 10% tax at each hand it passes)
when 20 people buy something for $1k each from a shop. instantly there is $100 per purchase deducted from that amount due to sales tax. leaving $900 in circulation per person
($20k to $18k)
when the retailer spends its $18k on 10 members of staff wages, their $1.8k is deducted 10% of income tax)
leaving staff with $1.62k ($20k down to $16.2k)

if fiat was deflationary. people wouldnt spend as often and instead hoard it. meaning the cycles of tax going to government would be less amounts going to them. meaning they can't gather/hoard as much to then get more value later.

..
so imagine instead of government having $3.8k in treasury.. in a deflationary system even if still taxed at 10%.. people would spend less per cycle meaning the government wont get $3.8k from that demo example. and next months cycle would be even less, where each month is less and less. until a government gets very little each month.

governments hate it when they get less and people keep more. it makes the government be less and less important.
they want poor people. they want to be the providers of services to the poor/needy because without anyone having needs that people could self fund. governments would not be needed and taxes would not be needed.

governments will always have a inflationary currency and always tax people.  as it is the only way they can stay relevant and needed,

I don't agree with you on a number of levels.  First off money having an unlimited future is exactly part of the problem..the money printers continuing to print money only devalues the current money in circulation which isn't a good thing.  Bitcoin can be broken down in to many finite satoshis, so that's really not likely to be an issue.  Also, bitcoin and cryptocurrency was only created in 2008, to say that it's already failed as a currency is foolish and short sided.  This is going to take time.  Personally I believe bitcoin can exist as both a commodity and a currency.

The real future for Bitcoin will come when it is accepted as money under Roman law. Bitcoin is the only crypto that has the capability of becoming money. At the moment only gold and silver coins are classed as money under Roman law. The legal standing is important in trade for a vcariety of reasons. One of which is the fact that a vendor receiving "money" in a valid legal transaction cannot have the payment taken away from him if the purchaser has acquired the money illegally. This is not true of fiat, and there was a case recently of a thief who used a stolen credit card to purchase a lottery ticket which was a £million winner. They took the fiat away from him. This is not quite the same, but the concept is similar.

Criminals and other bad people can use bitcoin the same way as we, but bitcoin's blockchain is transparent and all transactions can be tracked. There are several stories about how police caught criminals and used data from blockchain to prove their crimes. So as criminals can use other same things as we (table knife, baseball bat, etc.) they can use bitcoin as well but police will find them anyway and transparent blockchain will even make police's work easier. Do not be led by those who scare you that bitcoin can be used by scammers, fiat currencies are used by them much more often but we still use them and criminals should be caught anyway non depending on using what do they do their crime.

From what I'm seeing bitcoin can not replace fiat and that's because fiat currency is a currency that Bitcoin as currency get insert of what is currency and another thing that will make Bitcoin not to take over fiat is that fiat currency is basically know and adopted by people of ancient and with what they know of cryptocurrency they will not value it.

Currency is still doable, and something else could come up with time and research, but it takes time. And BTC maybe is just a stepping stone towards something else, it doesn't need to be the this as a final form nor do we need to be locked into it as THE thing. We can see those trends with anything else, and BTC might be what myspace was to social media or the first internet to whatever we have evolved to now.

Actually there is no need of money being unlimited if you can increase the value of that money and go down by it's denomination. Both the things are possible with bitcoin and other Cryptos you can go all the way upto each Satoshi and at the same time the value of a bitcoin is increasing as more users are coming in. The truth is even in fiat markets the same thing happens only that value of currency decreases and goods increases here the value of currency would increase and goods would decrease.

Bitcoin is the first crypto currency and it is most invested and highest valued crypto currency , and in some way the crypto market till date is bound with bitcoin. There are several other major crypto as well like Ethereum. But the holdings of bitcoin in market are so huge that it forms the backbone of crypto market, Just how USD forms the backbone of fiat.  Thus Bitcoin it will remain the most important crypto currency, Only some major innovation in blockchain, which provide a highly convincing solution to the problems associated with current crypto currencies can lead to emergence of a bitcoin competitor 

This was the main purpose of Satoshi why he/she created Bitcoin and being a decentralized digital currency give us the advantage of sending it everywhere in the world without a delay from the third-party exchange/banks. That's why Bitcoin doesn't need an approval from the government since they can't control Bitcoin.

We can't stop those people from using Bitcoin for illegal transactions and this is the disadvantage of having a decentralized crypto currency but overall it's still the best coin compared to the rest of altcoins and any hyped crypto projects.

as long as you don't use bitcoin for negative things then you are not breaking the law and are completely free with your bitcoin ownership. Bitcoin does not need recognition from the government if you want to be called a currency or commodity, just use bitcoin according to your needs.

True, Fiat is a wet dream for every person at the top of the ladder, but it doesn’t serve the interest of working citizens anymore, with how things have been going in the last decades.

What is more important tho, are the properties that define money and not solely by where the backing comes from, something digital can have better monetary properties than something like gold. It might be hard to grasp for some people.

The gold standard failed, because systems that require trust and central authorities  to work, aren’t immutable, so it will always fails again.

But gold also failed as money for different reasons, if we define money as a system to enable indirect trade, and would even more so in the digital age(there’s already more paper gold than real gold in the world).

The only thing that speaks for gold is that its the most stable store of value in all of humankind. But it lacks so hard in portability and divisibility, that we had to end up with fiat and paper gold.

it all depends on what the influx of new money is suppose to accomplish
take the quantitive easing.

you have to remember. fiat is not intellectual property of a citizen nor the citizens patent or invention. its government property. so they are the true owner and they are the party that decide how they should gain from it.. citizens use of it is the after thought to just service their "customers"   (imagine government as a business and citizens mearly customers")
airmiles are not made to give customers value for flying. its to make airline companies more profit customers just get to use airmiles for staying loyal to the company and keep customers wanting to use the company..


what you find is at the micro level of the economics of different countries. china is actually above america already.. but when looking at the macro levels (the world bank stats) they are showing that america is only just ahead and thus america is deemed the top country in the world.
when certain things happened, america was threatened with losing its top position. it got into debt and had liabilities and china were buying that debt and treating those as chinese assets. pushing china nearly to be the worlds super power. so QE had to be done to push money into american GDP to make "america great again".
again due to the covid thing. china prospered and america declined. so more QE.
and soon it will need to be a regular occurrence.

the 2008 and the 2020 events were funds pushed to the high up elite back end systems of hidden money. which appear on the GDP but never enter the normal citizen circulation. thus it didnt cause an inflation at the citizen level of wages/goods value. but helped keep america in the top super power position

however the upcoming one will caus inflation at citizen level. and the next QE will not be to the elite hidden back end of bankers.. but instead throwing money at citizens. either as tax credits/rebates/grants. or as 'universal basic income'
(US seen the trial of this with their covid income cheques)
(UK too with its covid payments and this year is seeing this with their 'household energy grants')

all of this is to push GDP up to remain in top superpower position on world banks stats reports
it also helps keep the USD-Yuan exchange rate pegged at a healthy level to show that USD is more valuable then yuan
..
QE is like creating a new altcoin of 1 trillion coins and setting the price a $1 each to instantly have a market cap of $1trillion to beat bitcoins stat of market cap to make the altcoin appear as being the top crypto coin. even if the coin is useless of utility.

if only government stooped trying to fake GDP to use such fake stats to pretend to be top super powers. and instead used money/value to help actually build a better country. then that QE funds might be worth something at all levels.

fiat is backed by laws of taxes and minimum wage. where people labour has to by law be measured in fiat and taxes paid in fiat measured in that measure. which helps keep that fiat in circulation for its citizens which reinforces its circulation..
problem is. humans can play around with those 'backed' numbers. by changing and updating min wage and tax % at a whim.. thus its rule backed but not value backed. as the value has become meaningless in fiat.

bitcoin is backed by the rules that enforce it AND its utility AND its function of circulation AND ontop of that its underlying cost of its creation.. after all a bank note or a bank account balance of $10 does not actually cost $10 to create the unit of measure. thus the unit of fiat currency is not in its cost of the unit creation. but only in the atleast minimum labour cost of someones work to obtain the cheap paper bank note or bank balance.


gold did not fail fiat.. fiat failed gold. there was too much fiat promising an allotment of gold. but the fiat creators couldnt honour every promise(to much fractional reserve). the fiat banks just didnt have enough gold in reserves to honour their promises. fiat failed the gold standard.. gold did not fail the fiat standard

gold has value without human laws. it has an underlying real cost to acquire it with no human laws to fake in new value every time they want to tweak a number.

bitcoin has real value in its cost to acquire new coin. the laws are fixed. consensus makes it unbreakable to ensure that no human can change the law and fake the numbers.

The good side is that bitcoin itself doesn't need any approbation of governments to be able to be used as a digital commodity or to be used as a payment system. As a decentralized project it gives these options to anyone and everyone interested. Government approbation just makes it easier and wider but you can use bitcoin without it as well.

It can be a commodity, currency or an exchange asset. It is upto the user who makes use of it. We can't get into conclusion with a specific term for the future of bitcoin. It have got multiple usage which is the best of bitcoin.

Very few countries have considered it a legal tender whereas majority have considered it similar to the gold and other commodity. Nowadays the countries have begun to regulate the usage of cryptocurrency usage, and this assure the future of bitcoin to be good. Because, most of the countries that are against bitcoin are now considering its good and making regulations/policies for flawless functioning.

Beginner mistake:

1. There’s nations with declining populations, yet their money supply is still increasing and not adjusted, because these 2 aren’t correlated.

2. The economic output can also decrease, nothing goes up forever, yet no adjustments will ever be made to the increasing money supply, till it crashes.

3. Resources on earth are actually finite, as well as the lifespan of human life, so why do you have a problem, when the representation of these two things get nominated in something finite?

Every time the money supply increases it actually devalues the time and resources a person has spent/ gathered over the years, and gives it to someone who didn’t work for it. Does it still sound smart?

And to the point by what Bitcoin is backed by, we can also ask what Gold is backed by? The laws of the universe give gold it’s properties. And the same way Bitcoin has certain properties that are valuable, are ensured by the network.

Also when we’re creating money we’re essentially trying to solve a human problem. Taking something from nature(like gold) and trying to make it work for us, can be inefficient. That’s why gold failed. Then came Fiat which is entirely a human construct(had some advantages), but failed too. And now we came up with a better solution that is Bitcoin. Just because something is architected to fit our needs, doesn’t mean it’s bad just because it’s not used for other things.

That is so true. It's more like the governments have adopted the fiat currency so much because they know they are in total control of the money in their country.
This is the main reason why most countries are against cryptocurrencies.
Even if they decide to use cryptocurrencies im future I am quite sure that they will create their own CBDC and hence have more control on it.
For bitcoin to be adopted by the whole world there should be some kind of self realisation that the governments are trying to stay in control of people's money.
This is far from happening and so I think fiat is here to stay forever.

The governments of this world are protecting Fiat currencies, so they will not allow Bitcoin to become a global currency. They started doing that, when they defined Bitcoin as a "Commodity" and not as a currency.

The countries that accepted Bitcoin as a currency (legal tender) has faced severe push back from the IMF and other western organizations that are being controlled by "Puppet Masters" (Super Rich people)

Bitcoin can only replace Fiat currencies when people see the evil forces behind Fiat currencies and how it is being used to control people. (Use your vote to change the status quo)  

I think to replace a fiat, supply won't matter at all but what    important is that it can function like a currency. Cryptos are a perfect example for this. I don't know what unlimited future you are talking about but maybe you mean is unlimited supply? But, you are right that bitcoin is also treated as a reserved commodity.

We have so many cryptos and not all that that join cryptos are a fan of btc but they can choose other cryptos that they like the most. As long as the cryptos are alive, they can circulate but there is only one main crypto here and that is btc. It is said to be the currency of the future. It's still up to the people if how will they use their btc, either as a currency or a commodity.

I can't imagine any other cryptocurrency as the main cryptocurrency because of Bitcoin's nature and decentralization. Almost all other cryptocurrency isn't truly decentralized. And Bitcoin won't be a national currency of a country by replacing native fiat. Native fiat or CBDC always should control by the government. Everything won't be decentralized in the world. So don't expect to replace fiat with cryptocurrency and replace Bitcoin with another altcoin.

your thinking short term.. widen your vision just a little bit.. dont be narrow minded

also when you say gold. in the final sentence of that paragraph.. you mention the market value (facepalm)..
forget the market price. stop and i mean this stop confusing the volatile market price of short term changes to be what is being discussed.

as you yourself said no one is able to mine bitcoin at GPU rates.. bitcoin value is AS YOU SAY(maybe you do finally understand something) that bitcoin is definitely not feasible to be valued below the GPU rates($0-$6)
so we both agree bitcoins value is not feasible to be $0.. right?

ok move forward a few steps.  and you will see the wide picture emerge that bitcoin value is not TODAYS price nor previous ATH.  but is instead a number far below anything anyone has bought or mined at for a long while

ill emphasise this..
alot has to go wrong and i mean alot, to bring the value back into range of the GPU rate.
its not something you will ever see happen over night nor over a fortnight nor over multiple months.

where even the changes of the last few days/weeks/months of price or hashrate cost of short term or difficulty has not even nudged against the bottomline i stated ($25k) for a LONG WHILE

---

anyway
back to the topic.

bitcoin is a currency by default as is pretty much anything. even sex can be used as a currency in relationships/nightclubs/social events

but bitcoin is more then that. its more then just an economic measure based off fiat. its a utility all of its own with features more easily useful that the fiat world.

in fiat if i wanted to set up a off shore account or a family trust fund. i usually need bank managers, lawyers and legal paperwork and paying fee's to those middlemen to authorise it.

in bitcoin i can self- create a multisig and fund it. and self-decide who to pass the keys too.. and its done. all set up at no cost, no headache and no legal requirements.

..
bitcoin can be used as a token. a visual representation of something else.
EG in schools it can be used as a 'gold star' system. where kids can earn gold stars(xsats) where at "parents evening"(parent,teacher conference) the teacher and parent can see how many sats the kid has earned. and compare it to other students to see if they are the good or bad kid of the class (all without putting a financial value to the sats, nor naming or shaming the least sat awarded kid publicly)..

there are many many more utilities not mentioned.

Yes, but it doesn't change based on the demand, whereas in bitcoin if there's less demand, there's tendency to drop its cost of production too, and dozens of other factors similar to gold. The significant part is that gold's cost is not related with its demand; definitely not directly connected.

Difficulty is rather a long-term parameter. Ten years ago, you could mine a block with a GPU. Currently that's definitely not feasible. That's because of the demand. On the other hand, gold, while not varying much from its 2012's market value, has still the same cost, regardless of its demand.

But, yeah, what does that idiot, alt-girl has to provide to this discussion anyways? 

FTFY

other examples i have seen.
some educational teachers have awarded students with allotments of sats depending on their exam results.
students have not price associated the reward but instead tallied the number of sats as their test score result to compare to other class mates

EG 500sat per % whereby if getting 98% means their address would show as being 49,000sat
which they all see the classes outputs of the teachers tx to see how many people got 100% by seeing how many people got the full 50,000sats. without any names associated with the scores.
thus transparent testing and result sharing without revealing personal information..

later on, these students can accumulate alot of sats the more exams they do. and when the graduate. they can, if they want sell/spend their scores. thus another advantage beyond transparent sharing of test results without identity association

This is what makes Bitcoin very unique, everyone is free to use it according to their needs...

Bitcoin as a currency or Bitcoin as a commodity, essentially Bitcoin is Bitcoin. I have received my customers' payments in Bitcoin several times (I sell women's accessories) and I also frequently trade in Bitcoin (on exchange). Bitcoin is both, cannot be separated.

no one ever said the backed value is fixed forever..
even backed value changes,, just alot more slowly. because its alot more stable compared to price.

the whims of the daily price do not impact the bottomline value as quickly/easily/harshly as you pretend/think it does

anyway more examples of how other things have value and their variance
just like FIAT is backed by pretty much laws about taxes and wages, meaning backed by minimum wage value, which too is not fixed forever..

even in gold there is a variable bottom too..
the main cost for golds bottom is diesel. aswell as labour and that changes too..
the rise in diesel cost and the lack of labour during covid affected the bottomline.. for the cheapest region..

but that is a separate measure from the market price which speculated upto over double+ the bottomline

and in housing there is a variable bottom too..
the main cost for housing bottom is material and labour. and that changes too..
but the housing real estate market price is not the same as the build price.

now.
if you can calculate all the variables. and put them into a spreadsheet.
and then instead of looking at the DAILY bottom.. you widen your vision and open your eyes a little bit more. and look at the variables of a more wider timeframe than you are used to looking at. and then find the bottom of that.. then thats the bottom..
..
here is the thing..
bitcoins DAILY MARKET PRICE.. is volatile.. . the PRICE is not value. its not the thing that is backed.
its speculative.. highly speculative and highly variable..


below the price is a more stable VALUE that alters much more slowly. and is more stable. and its what people use as a base point value to then associate if the market price is near value or highly inflated bubble premium

if you do the math.. at the $0.04/kw and the hashrate now.. its about $29kish/btc..
value is not TODAYS mining cost of ~$28k-$29k in cheapest regions
..
but here is the thing.. even with the hashrate variable and difficulty. the long term stable value for many months now has been around the same 200-210exahash.. for a long while now.
(5%) variance.
where by the even longer term value is below the $28k level.....
yep i said $25k.... not today or this quarters $28k+

i must emphasise this now..
i have coins for years.. i do not associate them to the daily whims of price changes and daily hashrate changes. i use more stable measure. a more stable base point that has existed LONG TERM..
i know you want to cry blue murder about daily and fortnightly variables. but you are thinking short term and only wanting to see short term charts..
look beyond your short term vision...


but there is a big difference between the volatile daily price speculation swing of $30k-$70k we have seen in the prices.. vs the value bottom of $20k-$25k bottom over the last couple years

whereby that smaller variable of $20k to $25k value has seen a more stable and consistent rise from $20k to $25k over the last few years. (give or take a few percent)

again.. for the last time
i am not quoting bitcoins TODAYS price or todays hashrate cost($28k+) to be "value"
nor the mining cost of japan($65k) as value
nor the mining cost of hobby miners on residential electric cost in america as value..

i am saying the ultimate bottom of $25k
becasue.. major asic farms that do massive asic mining do not buy electric at the whims of the day. they have quarterly/year long contracts where they mine the same electric amount(same cost) for months/years)

do not confuse todays(short term narrow vision) mining cost variable with what i have said. as you are just trying to be pedantic and not reading it when i said no one one the planet can mine for less than $25k

there are alot of things that need to go wrong to really push the underlying value down to $0

But, there's not a nearly invariable ultimate bottom in bitcoin, that's what I pointed out. Difficulty adjustments change that temporary bottom every 2 weeks, but difficulty adjustments are affected by demand. It is, therefore, clear that the demand does affect the minimum cost, which doesn't happen with any other commodity or asset.

As you rightly said, there's a bottom value for gold, houses etc., but not for bitcoin. And I think you agree with me here:

Op is saying money should have unlimited future, but I am not so sure that in the future money as such will continue to exist. Humanity, at some point (although unlikely during our lifetime), can get to the point when there are enough resources for everyone and they are distributed in a way that nobody is without food, shelter and medication, and something like reputation, academic performance and things like that function instead of currency.
In the meantime, Bitcoin is money in El Salvador and in some other places around the world (crypto-friendly cities). Many hodl Bitcoin long-term as an investment, but it doesn't mean that Bitcoin can't both be money and investment. And it can coexist with fiat and CBDCs.

i was talking about the bottomline.. the ultimate bottom. (emphasis when i said 'no one on the planet')
yes someone in iceland/kazahkstan can mine bitcoin for $25k/coin. but there is no one below them that can mine for less
where as japans mining costs are like $65k+

houses might sell for $5XX-$2XXX a square metre. but no one can get a house for $5 a square metre
if you can work out the bottomline square metre cost of the planet you can establish a new bottomline for the real estate market VALUE..
where by you can then tell if a house is priced well or at a premium against value.
even in just america.. it may cost more in california to build a house than it doe sin ohio.

it may cost more in texas to mine for gold than alaska.. but the ultimate bottom is the important thing. the number no one no where can acquire for right now

by taking the most absolute bottomline on the planet no one can get for less.. that becomes the new "zero"
because no one can get it for less at the time.

if there was no demand. its not an instant $0 of the coin.. its a process.. the $25k minimum slowly drops as people drop out. and like i explained this slow drop is not a certainty of being $0 short term because the drop itself slowly going down can infact re-energise some desire/demand and thus keep the price active longer or re-birth a new demand.

and as i said the value line is not based on all mining cost of the planet. its the bottom line cost no one on the planet can get for less.. all things above the bottom line is the speculative stuff based on regional variances, sentiments, supply and demand stuff.

..
personally i have coin from 2012 ($6 a coin) . but i do not value it at $6 anymore.. but i also do not value it at the current price. nor value it at the top ATH potential recently of $70k

i see my coins VALUE is a minimum of about $25k right now because right now. there is no way that i can lose because all prices around the planet being offered are above $25k, whether it be mining, market exchanging, or purchasing/selling goods or services. no one is valuing bitcoin at less than $25k.

in short
bitcoin is backed by atleast $25k of bottomline value and ~$5k of unbacked volatile speculation

..
lets take someone in japan..
their mining cost is $65k. but thats not japans "value". because in japan. they can still acquire bitcoin for $30k on an exchange or OTC deal with a iceland miner for $25k+
so japans value again is ~$25k as thats the ultimate bottom

the numbers above this bottom is the SPECULATIVE PRICE. which is variable

(emphasis. when i say mining cost and i say no one on the planet.. im talking about the minimum cost.. not the variable per region..)

Isn't it more proper to say that there's cost? There's no "hidden value line", it just costs $X to mine gold, it costs $Y to make a house, it costs a frequently variable amount of money to mine a bitcoin.

But, the mining and acquisition costs in bitcoin depend (although not solely) on the demand. Difficulty does change according to the demand. Mining bitcoin isn't the same as mining gold, and therefore not a good example of the "minimum price", which is, as said, the cost.

basic economics class here for the two people quoted above

imagine there are instead 2 measures..
VALUE and price..

people never want to sell at a loss.. in housing, stocks, shares. bitcoin.

no one on the planet can currently mine for less than say $25k a coin..
no one on the planet can buy a house for less than $XX a square foot
no one on the planet can buy a share of Tesla for less than its business collateral

this is the hidden value line.
EG it costs people atleast $900 to mine an ounce of gold. this is golds value line

above this value line. is the speculative more volatile fluff. the moving price.
some people think its worth more then others due to MANY factors. like their local/regional costs of acquiring it being more then other regions. or the usability/features.
this premium above value is where the price sits.

EG golds speculative price might be like $1.8k. but its store of value "backed" by about $900

so when gold is say $2k people think that its price is way above value and a premium and thus wont buy it when its too high. just like bitcoin peaked at $70k/coin when its value was more like $25k

bitcoins value is backed by the mining and acquisition costs.. the price is speculative amount above value and is the "supply/demand" game. of many factors or personal sentiment, regional costs and functionality


even if there is no new investors.. the current community might still see value in its utility.
its not a scenario of bitcoin drops to zero if no one new jumps in.. its already an active community of people using it.

EG do fiat currencies go to zero if their net import/export shows they have less imports than exports. or the opposite.. no

because the currency continues to function if all currency is just stirred around domestically(current comunity) without imports/exports happening.
..
if there was no demand at all. even from current users. first you will see the hashrate drop because miners will give up. the remaining miners will get more reward. which might then re-energise some demand as they can get more reward meaning get more incomes while the price is not yet dropped too far.
then this may cause the price to drop due to those sells. and yes eventually it could drop more and more if the desire fades..

but bitcoin has more function and utility than just "hoarding". its actually a useful currency in of itself. its function is not to just be a bridge to fiat. it can be a function currency without having to ever return to fiat. i personally have coins from 2012 and in that decade most of my transactions have not been back to fiat. but buying goods and services in btc.
i have also used btc to do other practical things unrelated to fiat too

Everything, by the same reasoning, is backed by demand. Houses, stocks, bonds, metals, food, guns, vehicles, goods etc., everything.

Again, that's true for everything. If there's no demand for a thing, it has no value.

It's already treated as currency.

Bitcoin isn't always exchanged for fiat. As said, it's a currency.

What does back bitcoin? It is more or less a game to consider that it is backed by demand. If new demand is "0" then the value of bitcoin may be "0" and it will be difficult to consider it as an investment or currency. If we imagine that all bitcoins are sold then new demand could appear only if bitcoin has been already treated as a currency, got its environment and law regulations (taxes, etc). Today fiat is used to buy bitcoin on the market, then bitcoin circularizes in buy/sell process, then it comes out to be changed for fiat. Bitcoin seems to be a method. Method does no need to be baked. Method needs areas for implementation. Otherwise the method is useless. That is why the bitcoin´s implementation as a currency could keep it safe.

Yes, because that's the point. No one gets to tell you what Bitcoin is "officially" for. If you think it's a currency, then go use it as a currency. If you think it's an investment, then go use it as an investment. Etc. Freedom at its best.

Why should replaced? I don't think it will be.
No need to replace fiat, Bitcoin has got its high trust from its investors, holders, and also many other parties. In fact, the value of Bitcoin has been growing so far. We don't need to make it as a currency only or a commodity asset only. In fact, Bitcoin can be both as long as there is no ban from a country. We have seen that there are different things considered by each country that they may support or even ban Bitcoin. But so far, Bitcoin is accepted much in this world,

OK, question was about the role of bitcoin from the personal point of view. Somebody prefers to keep this asset, another is interesting in circulation, exchanging and spending.

even investments are a currency.
swapping shares is a currency transaction.
behind the scenes of institutional banks. they trade insurance certificates, debt agreements(mortgages) and other things. these are their currencies.

as for commodity.. pfft. nah majority call bitcoin an asset..

its why i made my post as some newbies need education in common economic definitions before they go down rabbit holes using the wrong terminology and then creating some conscious bias to stick with their wrong definitions because they see other newbies using the wrong terminology

EG
in the real material world a wallet holds bank notes and coins. where as a key ring holds keys.
in bitcoin a wallet holds keys. and the blockchain holds the coins.

yet a decade ago people with less experience of understanding definitions chose the wrong words to describe how bitcoin features work. and so we got stuck in the badly worded metaphors

..
we dont need to start having alot of newbie users calling it a commodity(wrongly) and then have the bias of following the trends where people start preferring to call it a commodity just because they seen someone else call it a commodity. even if technically and metaphorically it is not a commodity

Thank you for your point of view.
People have already choosed between investment and currency. The word "commodity" is commonly used for bitcoin meaning  in this forum. )))

concepts the topic creator needs to understand about bitcoin and his words in his post.

1. bitcoin is not a commodity, nor never shall be
   - a commodity is a raw material used to make other products..
   - bitcoin is not this.
   - bitcoin is an asset not a commodity
   - people compare bitcoin to gold which is a commodity.. AND an asset
   - gold sits on TWO markets. commodity (manufacturing supply) AND asset (investment)
   - bitcoin follows the gold asset properties(there is a cost to mine it, and its rare)
   - bitcoin does not follow the commodity properties(conductive, malleable)

2. bitcoin is a currency.
   - anything that is used as a medium of exchange is a currency.
   - giving people vodka for helping out/being neighbourly chores =vodka is a currency
   - even sex is used as a currency in some relationships
   - if you are talking about bitcoin becoming a FIAT currency, forget it.
   - if you are talking about being accepted as a common(legal tender) currency.. it has

3. bitcoin is not meant to replace fiat.
   - bitcoin is not meant to take away the government currency and replace it
   - bitcoin is meant to be an open second option,. a choice. an exit, a hedge against fiat
   - there will never be a scenario of a "one world currency". there are hundreds of fiat currencies
  
4. the single satoshi is as useful as a single penny of fiat. (not very much)
   - 1btc is as useful as 100m pennies (not everyone can afford $1m or $30k in some countries)
   - 1btc does not exist in code or data. its a human visual construct for graphic easy display
   - no one is forced to buy a whole btc like no one is forced to buy a whole tonne of gold
   - there are other visual construct 'basket allotments' like 1bit (100sats)
   - 1bit can be compared to $1(visual construct not value) with 100 smaller parts if needed.
   - bitcoin can achieve 20,999,999,976,900 bits ($20trillion visual construct comparison not value)

5. the overall concept to think about
   - each person can have ~2500 bits if shared equally with all 8+ bill population
   - the concept is not to have enough units where 1bit is enough for a loaf of bread
   - its not to be abundant to give people plentiful amounts of units.
   - its concept is to be deflationary where by the conversion to other abundant currencies
   - value of set units become worth more due to the lack of abundance of bitcoin units
   - when fiat create more fiat. bitcoin is worth more $ value in comparison.
   - there is enough units even if planetary population went up
   - if population grows to 20billion people, bitcoin  1000 investible 'bit' units
   - where those units have a 2.5x value compared to population of 8bill

When talking about bitcoin as a currency for circulation, it is OK to take into account the habits of users (a wide range of buyers), including what numbers people are used to see today on store shelves and online sites. In most cases, these are dollars and euros, and prices between 0-10,000 units. The circulation of bitcoin strengthens its position, so the point is about bitcoin circulation, demand and user habits.

Yes. There are a lot of different fiat currencies currently on the market. But most often we see USD and EUR in the Internet. Never the less where people are, they need to choose one currency in order to make a deal (to buy and sell). Usually it is USD or EUR. That is why presenting prices in satoshi is quite new.

It is unlikely the fiat system would disappear, governments simply derive too much power from it to let it go so easily, after all taxes tax your income but by printing fiat whenever they want governments can tax your wealth.

Bitcoin in the best case scenario will become a parallel system widely used by a great deal of the population and accepted by governments simply because they do not have the power to completely stop it, they will try to regulate it as much as possible, which is something we are already seeing, but the regulations would not be enough to decrease its usage.

Both, more likely a currency being the primary usage. I don't expect fiat to be completely eliminated in the future. It's possible that fiat currencies will compete with crypto to fight for the consumer's business (and given the government's track record on managing fiscal policy, it wouldn't be a difficult choice.) There might be a few currencies that can sustain consumer confidence, though Bitcoin will most likely come out on top.

Those using Bitcoin for a commodity and holding the currency just makes the supply less and increases the price by demand. It doesn't regress the coin.

Why would one satoshi be impractical or unconvenient in everyday life? Or, say, 1 mBTC?


There are a lot of different fiat currencies currently on the market, and their base values are quite different. You seem to not be aware of this.
According to current exchange rates, for example, one South Korean Won (KRW) is equal to just a little over 2 satoshi. With that in mind, why do you think presenting prices in satoshi is more difficult than in other currencies?


What you said doesn't make sense. You may wish to reword your comment to make it more understandable.

Currency circulation is needed in order the demand for bitcoin would be high. If bitcoins are simply put in reserve, then there will be no reason to develop the status of bitcoin. In this case, bitcoin may lose its value. What do you think?

I know some *cryptocurrencies* that have a supply of around quadrillion.  

Let's take Bitcoin, here is less than 22 million BTC but Bitcoin can be divided into several satoshis which means that limited supply is not a problem if we are talking at the dollar satoshi level.

Demand is the problem, I don't think we'll get enough demand to get one satoshi worth a dollar.

When you're talking about Cryptocurrency, always be precise about which one, bitcoin is a digital currency and it's acceptable for making transactions for exchange of goods and services, other cryptocurrencies are most likely to be sh*tcoins, bitcoin has a role in this modern economy and the role of fiat as well cannot be overemphasized but their respective success in the later future will determine their performance to either replace the other or be use along altogether in the nearest future.


If you should be talking about digital currency then it should be on bitcoin and that is the only digital currency that has the future to dominate the major currency of fiat role in the economy, it's already in circulation, OP i think by now you shouldn't be in doubt about how bitcoin can be used as a currency.

For me I do think that Bitcoins will forever be an investment opportunity since for me spending it as money is not really a good idea, the price is going to increase ofcourse and therefore I would rather hoard the coins if I had any also the opportunity also these are more focused in some countries and places against the others, I only found 1 restaurant in London till now which accepted bitcoins in the West side the focus is on things like cards, visas, fiats, as compared to cryptocurrencies like bitcoins and the government as well is focused on cbdc's. For me it's definitely an investment.

Agree. What is the role of these roadside rocks now?

ZWL are interesting for local people )))
Satoshi is good for asset but it is difficult for presenting price (on sites) as far as it is common to see numbers 0.01-100000 (usd/eur/etc) now

will you accept "affordable asset" ? As far as crypto performs as currency the meaning "affordable digital currency" (to buy) appeared too 

Always has been... 

Perhaps in another galaxy, but not in the Milky Way. 1,000,000,000 is 100 quadrillion times bigger than 0.00000001.

0.00000001 BTC, or 1 sat in short, is currently valuated at 0.0003 USD. This means that, for each of the smallest unit of USD you give, which is 0.01 USD (or 1 cent in short), you can buy 33 sats. It's definitely "affordable".

You still get the whole Bitcoin situation wrong and misconception, Bitcoin will not and can never replace faint to be used as an alternative, this means both Bitcoin and fiat will co-exist in the same economy. Bitcoin/cryptocurrency can not act unilaterally in a system and that means it transaction has to involve either faint at some point. Bitcoin's limited supply does not make it unaffordable to buy its smallest unit that is a misconception it may be expensive that is only when you want to exchange it with a faint, I will advise you to take your time to study Bitcoin and its decentralized nature to build a better knowledge about it so that you would not work around with this misconception for long.

I'm sure many people above have already said this, but let's make it bold for some "extra understanding":

You do not need to buy 1 BTC to afford items priced in Bitcoin.

Sure people have various biases such as preferring $99.99 to $100, but perhaps the unitary value of something is the most prevalent bias of them all. That is, everything is denominated in units of 1, and cannot be divided (cents are for extremely cheap stuff).

Actually, it is impossible to adjust the unit value of a truly decentralized currency, since that would be equivalent to a central bank issuing a new banknote and taking the old one out of circulation. This would require many hardforks and would cause havoc to the blockchain.

Looking for an "affordable currency" is like a person buying a typical roadside rock just because he couldn't afford a kilogram of gold, even though he could just have bought a gram of gold. If doesn't make any sense at all.

Not at all!
First, at one point, you had 100 000 000 000 000 ZWL being worth 40 cents.
Now you have 1000 satoshi being worth 30 cents.
Far easier to deal with it.


Again, there is no such thing as affordable currency.
One piece of bread is more affordable than one if one costs 1$ and the other costs 2$ for the same weight.
You're comparing the base value of a denomination, which is irrelevant.  If everyone would love affordable currencies why is nobody buying 1 billion bolivars or rials as reserves instead of 1 billion dollars? Because they are garbage, just like garbage, affordable but worth zero, just as much as you've paid for it.

We Bitcoin investors are happy that it’s not being replaced with FIAT.
We are really happy that it is being treated as an asset.
Due to this this treatment as a digital asset, we can make Bitcoins valuable.
And guess what, all the early investors who have bought Bitcoins in comparatively cheaper price will sell it in great profits.
This can be usually treated as their retirement plan.
So at last we are happy to see Bitcoins treated as valuable asset, and will love to see it being treated the same.

That 0.00000001 and that 1000000000 actually look like the same things now

if that 0.00000001 is too expensive for FIAT users  then FIAT will exist until this problem is solved. That is why meaning "affordable currency" may be in use.

The widespread use of bitcoin and other currencies leads to a change in the policy of the authorities regarding crypto and the development of tools for their use.

That worked wonders for both the Bolivar and the Zimbabwe dollar.
How many trillions of "money" you want?


This is a new one, an affordable currency.
The currency itself is a measure of wealth or purchasing power, you can't use the term affordable currency.
Is the Vietnamese dong affordable, yes it is compared to the British pound, you can have thousands of it but in the end with a single one you can't buy anything.


This part is true, those who don't want to use bitcoins are free to use other cryptocurrencies, and nobody is forcing anyone to use Bitcoin.
Btw, it terra/luna affordable?  

At the same time, this confirms that 0.00000001 is not very convenient for practical use in everyday life, and also that either Fiat or another cryptocurrency will exist firmly. Fiat will be strongly protected, inflation is inevitable in the near future. But even further 0.00000001 is not very convenient to use. Today, in the usual sense, prices vary from 0.01 - 1000000.

It seems that you have to learn a lot, otherwise you will live in various delusions for a long time. One of these misconceptions is that many like you think that 21 million BTC (max supply) is something that will make it impossible for anyone who wants to use Bitcoin as a currency - and yet the truth is completely different. 1 BTC consists of 100 million satoshi = 0.00000001 which is quite enough for everyone who will ever want to use it.

Stop being carried away by some ideas that some other cryptocurrency will take over and that people will start using it en masse - there is a fiat for that, and unfortunately for you and all the rest of us it is in virtually unlimited quantities, so we will now suffer from inflation and recession precisely because of what you consider an advantage.

You're falling for the typical unit bias problem when it comes to cryptocurrencies. Not because bitcoin's unit price doesn't make it "expensive" and that most people wouldn't be able to use it.

Remember: bitcoin is highly divisible. At some point it's likely (and I freakin hope) that we would be using a smaller denomination as to make it easier for day-to-day transactions.

It doesn't need to be one or the other. It could be all those things at the same time.

---

On another note, this is one of the main reasons why I've been a heavy advocate for everyone to use sats by default instead of bitcoin lol.

It looks like any cryptocurrency will not be able to replace current FIAT because any of them is finite. "Money" should have an unlimited future because the number of inhabitants of the planet is increasing and the socially produced product is increasing. Now bitcoin is more like a reserved commodity for part of the population. Those who do not buy bitcoin will be able to use other cryptocurrencies. It seems that the currency that will be in circulation and will be affordable, that currency will have a chance to become the main cryptocurrency in the future.