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Topic: What is the legal standpoint around buying Bitcoins in the UK? HMRC etc.. (Read 4001 times)

full member
Activity: 153
Merit: 100
I just called HMRC about this (13th April 2013), to at least tie down capital gains vs income tax for a personal investment in bitcoin

The first advisor had not heard of it but passed me to someone who had.

The advice was very clear. For a UK taxpayer buying and selling bitcoins :

"buying and selling Bitcoins using your own money definitely comes under capital gains tax"  
HMRC telephone advisor 13th April 2013

The advisor explained that it is treated like buying and selling a foreign currency.  

I asked if it would ever come under income tax and the answer was 'only if you were using other people's money to buy and sell, for instance running an investment scheme' - (not that pirate at 40 cares I imagine:-)

We didn't discuss mining income, or VAT for businesses

Thought this might be useful for others. Of course I can't guarantee you'll get the same answer from a different advisor at a later date but this was at least a very clear statement of HMRCs current policy.

Please can you share with whom you spoke at HMRC - was it just their normal help line?

I am figuring out how to treat the shareholder funds invested in CipherMine. Obviously we must not accrue CGT on them but I don't think that is a worry; my plan is to treat them as shareholder funds within Wood Tech or possibly a loan.

The more debatable area is the revenue share aspect. In theory all mined coins are our revenue, but HMRC only recognises fiat for tax purposes. Since we give divis direct to the shareholders I am hoping that means I don't have to declare them as income in Wood Tech's accounts. The only bit that would then be declarable would be the costs (power, maintenance and depreciation) plus the 50% hardware reinvestment fund. Since we are forced to depreciate computer hardware over 36 months I am expecting to make a taxable profit which is a bit annoying but can't be helped.

Kate.
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
I just called HMRC about this (13th April 2013), to at least tie down capital gains vs income tax for a personal investment in bitcoin

The first advisor had not heard of it but passed me to someone who had.

The advice was very clear. For a UK taxpayer buying and selling bitcoins :

"buying and selling Bitcoins using your own money definitely comes under capital gains tax"  
HMRC telephone advisor 13th April 2013

The advisor explained that it is treated like buying and selling a foreign currency.  

I asked if it would ever come under income tax and the answer was 'only if you were using other people's money to buy and sell, for instance running an investment scheme' - (not that pirate at 40 cares I imagine:-)

We didn't discuss mining income, or VAT for businesses

Thought this might be useful for others. Of course I can't guarantee you'll get the same answer from a different advisor at a later date but this was at least a very clear statement of HMRCs current policy.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Now they are thinking what to do with me
Atm bitcoin isn't classed as anything in the UK.

You can buy some, play with it, fiddle, whatever.

IF you decide to say "Hey Mr Taxman (HMRC), I have xxxx bitcoin, and I want to declare it for tax purposes."

They will say "What now? wtf is that?"

Until the UK recognizes bitcoin you won't get taxed in it (especially nice if you conduct all your business in bitcoin).

Though to be 110% certain you can always email HMRC and ask "hey, I (or my company) earned xxx in bitcoin, want to tax me on it please?" or something similar.

Which hopefully one day companies and employees will. If HMRC accept and tax bitcoin, it would be a huge bonus to the bitcoin movement to be acknowledged as such.

Though until that day, probably best to keep a bit quiet on it. Though it depends on how much your company plans to trade in bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 947
Merit: 1042
Hamster ate my bitcoin
They are considered an investment and are subject to capital gains tax.

Any official confirmation on this? I'm thinking of sending an email to these guys just to be sure.

No, I'm making the assumption that when the uk gov gets round to classifying bitcoin they will determine that it's a store of value like gold, rather than a currency.

legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
They are considered an investment and are subject to capital gains tax.

Any official confirmation on this? I'm thinking of sending an email to these guys just to be sure.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1008
1davout
You could ask your solicitor how it would be accounted if your LTD where to buy gold, and then s/gold/Bitcoin/ in the answer, and it'd most probably be a valid answer.
Probably not, gold has a specific status in a lot of countries.
Treating it like any random physical asset is probably the way to go for now.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
I guess it'd be the same or similar as if your company where to buy gold.

You could ask your solicitor how it would be accounted if your LTD where to buy gold, and then s/gold/Bitcoin/ in the answer, and it'd most probably be a valid answer.

Bitcoin is a digital commodity, and it should be accounted as such, IMHO.


Not quite, Gold is classed as money and is not subject to VAT, Silver has a different legal status and VAT is charged on it. So bitcoin could be better described as an electronic voucher, or foreign currency and VAT is normally due on vouchers see: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/charging/discounts-etc.htm#4


But really the whole idea of VAT is its a tax on added value, its a productivity tax and fucking immoral.


+1 Patman
legendary
Activity: 947
Merit: 1042
Hamster ate my bitcoin
They are considered an investment and are subject to capital gains tax.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Watch out for the "Neg-Rep-Dogie-Police".....
There's me thinking that the whole idea of bitcoin was so we can ignore things like solicitors fees, taxes, banks and nosy money grabbing middlemen...... Roll Eyes

Tell them nothing, that's the whole idea. It's not cash as they know it, so sod'em.

Peace.
sr. member
Activity: 334
Merit: 250
I guess it'd be the same or similar as if your company where to buy gold.

You could ask your solicitor how it would be accounted if your LTD where to buy gold, and then s/gold/Bitcoin/ in the answer, and it'd most probably be a valid answer.

Bitcoin is a digital commodity, and it should be accounted as such, IMHO.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
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