Topic: What to buy with $10K? (Read 4390 times)

Quote from: R- on April 03, 2012, 04:55:59 PM

Also you ever think maybe the long wait times are because they mine on your guys units for a month after they build them to get some extra profit Tongue

That might have been the cheekiest comment I've read on BCT.com

Think about it though gigavps claims he ordered "a couple" rig boxes they could have them built in a week then hold on to them and mine on them for a couple months and make a extra $4500 per rig box per month before they send them to him. Not saying BFL is doing this but its possible.

Quality control testing to ensure it operates smoothly...

stcupp

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Also you ever think maybe the long wait times are because they mine on your guys units for a month after they build them to get some extra profit Tongue

That might have been the cheekiest comment I've read on BCT.com

Think about it though gigavps claims he ordered "a couple" rig boxes they could have them built in a week then hold on to them and mine on them for a couple months and make a extra $4500 per rig box per month before they send them to him. Not saying BFL is doing this but its possible.

R-

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Pasta

Also you ever think maybe the long wait times are because they mine on your guys units for a month after they build them to get some extra profit Tongue

That might have been the cheekiest comment I've read on BCT.com

stcupp

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Seems like we have all got off topic as well lol the question isnt What to buy with $15K? its What to buy with $10K?

I would say as long as you think bitcoin isn't going to totally collapse in the next couple years to go with FPGA's as they are more efficient and you will have a greater return in the long especially if you live in a area with high power costs. However, if your afraid bitcoin is going to anytime in the next couple years and dont mind less return then put your money into computer hardware and GPU's that will be a lot easier to resell if anything did happen.

Personally I would go with FPGA As others have said though there is a lot of things to consider when coming up with a payback period and profits and there is no way to precisely calculate it because all of the constantly changing variables. Such as price per BTC, Difficulty, changes in power costs, and cost of maintaining your hashing farm such as cooling, repairing fans, and anything else that could go wrong.

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Quote from: jamesg on April 03, 2012, 01:07:01 PM

but even with these more efficient chips...... How do you know that they will actually use the amount of power BFL says they will? If I'm not mistaken they said their singles were going to use only 40 watts in the beginning? maybe it was 60? theres no way of knowing what the actual power consumption is going to be until they get one built and test it.

Btw 1250 watts at 25 Gh/s sounds a whole lot like 125 spartan 6's =p but at 15k they would have to be getting them dirt cheap like $100 per spartan....

They have rejiggered the wattage claims since the singles have shipped. The initial claim was 800 watts at ~54 ghps, so the revised claims of 2500 watts at 50 ghps (or half that for the mini-rig) are likely to be closer to reality.

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Quote from: stcupp on April 03, 2012, 01:04:20 PM

what makes you think BFL's mini rigs will really get 1250watts? if theyre using the same FPGA's as the singles it would be more like 2500 watts.

25000 ÷ 800 = 31.25 * 80 = 2500

as i recall they didnt have correct power consumption quotes on the singles either

This may be difficult to believe, but a little more reading and a little less typing would point you towards the correct answer.

The correct answer is that the mini rig uses more efficient chips.

sorry about that I wasn't home and was on a tablet Tongue

but even with these more efficient chips...... How do you know that they will actually use the amount of power BFL says they will? If I'm not mistaken they said their singles were going to use only 40 watts in the beginning? maybe it was 60? theres no way of knowing what the actual power consumption is going to be until they get one built and test it.

Btw 1250 watts at 25 Gh/s sounds a whole lot like 125 spartan 6's =p but at 15k they would have to be getting them dirt cheap like $100 per spartan....

Also you ever think maybe the long wait times are because they mine on your guys units for a month after they build them to get some extra profit Tongue

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Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 03:09:36 PM

Don't forget expenses like electricity and internet can be business deductions when done properly.

I'm all over it. One of the best things anyone can do for themselves is run a business. The benefits are too numerous to list here.

Now back to the original topic.

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Quote from: nedbert9 on April 03, 2012, 03:03:29 PM

Quote from: jamesg on April 03, 2012, 02:22:31 PM

Quote from: nedbert9 on April 03, 2012, 02:09:07 PM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 12:00:12 PM

These new boards will take about a year to pay off.....

I sure hope you have double checked your calculations on that one. Payoff on a rig box is well before the subsidy halves for me at least.

I have a pretty well developed spreadsheet and I'm struggling to understand how you would be able to break even before Oct/Nov.

Magic?

6.6 months at current difficulty. This does not take into account depreciation and it's effects on my taxes at the end of the year, tax free money that comes out of the business because of the loans (from me to the business) to purchase the equipment. Other things also effect payback, like when you decide to sell your BTC.

Difficulty can go down too, which most people forget when it's going up. Just look at posts from the middle of last year when others were saying that they would be out of mining because of the exponential rise of difficulty. There are a lot of GPUs that are going to be unprofitable soon if the price keeps falling.

Ultimately, there are a lot of variables at play, but I feel I have done my homework and have put my money where it is best able to make a decent return.

Good tax tactic. I hadn't considered asset depreciation.

Your numbers are not too far off from mine, but I suppose I'm taking a conservative view on income. Thanks.

Don't forget expenses like electricity and internet can be business deductions when done properly.

nedbert9

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Quote from: jamesg on April 03, 2012, 02:22:31 PM

Quote from: nedbert9 on April 03, 2012, 02:09:07 PM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 12:00:12 PM

These new boards will take about a year to pay off.....

I sure hope you have double checked your calculations on that one. Payoff on a rig box is well before the subsidy halves for me at least.

I have a pretty well developed spreadsheet and I'm struggling to understand how you would be able to break even before Oct/Nov.

Magic?

6.6 months at current difficulty. This does not take into account depreciation and it's effects on my taxes at the end of the year, tax free money that comes out of the business because of the loans (from me to the business) to purchase the equipment. Other things also effect payback, like when you decide to sell your BTC.

Difficulty can go down too, which most people forget when it's going up. Just look at posts from the middle of last year when others were saying that they would be out of mining because of the exponential rise of difficulty. There are a lot of GPUs that are going to be unprofitable soon if the price keeps falling.

Ultimately, there are a lot of variables at play, but I feel I have done my homework and have put my money where it is best able to make a decent return.

Good tax tactic. I hadn't considered asset depreciation.

Your numbers are not too far off from mine, but I suppose I'm taking a conservative view on income. Thanks.

jamesg

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Quote from: nedbert9 on April 03, 2012, 02:09:07 PM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 12:00:12 PM

These new boards will take about a year to pay off.....

I sure hope you have double checked your calculations on that one. Payoff on a rig box is well before the subsidy halves for me at least.

I have a pretty well developed spreadsheet and I'm struggling to understand how you would be able to break even before Oct/Nov.

Magic?

6.6 months at current difficulty. This does not take into account depreciation and it's effects on my taxes at the end of the year, tax free money that comes out of the business because of the loans (from me to the business) to purchase the equipment. Other things also effect payback, like when you decide to sell your BTC.

Difficulty can go down too, which most people forget when it's going up. Just look at posts from the middle of last year when others were saying that they would be out of mining because of the exponential rise of difficulty. There are a lot of GPUs that are going to be unprofitable soon if the price keeps falling.

Ultimately, there are a lot of variables at play, but I feel I have done my homework and have put my money where it is best able to make a decent return.

nedbert9

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 12:00:12 PM

These new boards will take about a year to pay off.....

I sure hope you have double checked your calculations on that one. Payoff on a rig box is well before the subsidy halves for me at least.

I have a pretty well developed spreadsheet and I'm struggling to understand how you would be able to break even before Oct/Nov.

Magic?

jamesg

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Quote from: stcupp on April 03, 2012, 01:04:20 PM

what makes you think BFL's mini rigs will really get 1250watts? if theyre using the same FPGA's as the singles it would be more like 2500 watts.

25000 ÷ 800 = 31.25 * 80 = 2500

as i recall they didnt have correct power consumption quotes on the singles either

This may be difficult to believe, but a little more reading and a little less typing would point you towards the correct answer.

The correct answer is that the mini rig uses more efficient chips.

stcupp

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what makes you think BFL's mini rigs will really get 1250watts? if theyre using the same FPGA's as the singles it would be more like 2500 watts.

25000 ÷ 800 = 31.25 * 80 = 2500

as i recall they didnt have correct power consumption quotes on the singles either

EDIT: has BFL actually built one of these and taken power measurements yet?

jjiimm_64

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Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 12:52:45 PM

Quote from: jjiimm_64 on April 03, 2012, 12:40:50 PM

Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 11:51:16 AM

What about 7970's, can I get 6 of them on one rig with seasonic 1250 psu and a 890fxz GD65 or GD70 MB?

I have a little experience with this EXACT set up.

1. the seasonic will not push 6 of these cards unless you undervolt... alot
2. windoz will only load 5 of the 6 cards. i tried numerous times before falling back to the 5 per mobo approach.

http://s1027.photobucket.com/albums/y335/jjiimm_64/10x7970%20rig/

Good info. Can you fit 4 on the board without extenders? Would be like $2200/rig then. @2800Mh/s That's not horrible.

you can fit 4, but I would not advise it... these cards blow alot of air, and restricting airflow will heat them up...

gnar1ta$

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Quote from: jjiimm_64 on April 03, 2012, 12:40:50 PM

Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 11:51:16 AM

What about 7970's, can I get 6 of them on one rig with seasonic 1250 psu and a 890fxz GD65 or GD70 MB?

I have a little experience with this EXACT set up.

1. the seasonic will not push 6 of these cards unless you undervolt... alot
2. windoz will only load 5 of the 6 cards. i tried numerous times before falling back to the 5 per mobo approach.

http://s1027.photobucket.com/albums/y335/jjiimm_64/10x7970%20rig/

Good info. Can you fit 4 on the board without extenders? Would be like $2200/rig then. @2800Mh/s That's not horrible.

jjiimm_64

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Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 11:51:16 AM

What about 7970's, can I get 6 of them on one rig with seasonic 1250 psu and a 890fxz GD65 or GD70 MB?

I have a little experience with this EXACT set up.

1. the seasonic will not push 6 of these cards unless you undervolt... alot
2. windoz will only load 5 of the 6 cards. i tried numerous times before falling back to the 5 per mobo approach.

http://s1027.photobucket.com/albums/y335/jjiimm_64/10x7970%20rig/

Cablez

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I owe my soul to the Bitcoin code...

I just don't get how anyone can make assumptions on ROI when so many people are throwing obscene amounts of money at hashing power.

Considering if any of these products can be produced at any real quantity, there are more than enough takers here to really do a number on difficulty.

I don't think that many miners who would throw these kind of dollars around would just shut off their current farms, replacements are bound to happen but I think most of this will be additions.

I am hoping beyond hope that my little 8GH farm doesn't become marginalized by August. Sad

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Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 12:23:26 PM

Quote from: jamesg on April 03, 2012, 12:14:23 PM

They are announcing the mini rig box this week. I originally ordered a couple rig boxes.

At $30K ea? I need your job...

They used to be $25k each. Mining may be my job soon.....

gnar1ta$

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Quote from: jamesg on April 03, 2012, 12:14:23 PM

They are announcing the mini rig box this week. I originally ordered a couple rig boxes.

At $30K ea? I need your job...

matthewh3

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 12:00:12 PM

These new boards will take about a year to pay off.....

I sure hope you have double checked your calculations on that one. Payoff on a rig box is well before the subsidy halves for me at least.

At current difficulty I'm expecting over 15BTC a month for around £3 of electric.

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 12:00:12 PM

These new boards will take about a year to pay off.....

I sure hope you have double checked your calculations on that one. Payoff on a rig box is well before the subsidy halves for me at least.

jamesg

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Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 12:06:17 PM

These prices make almost no sense no matter how little wattage they use. Best value for the money is the mini rig box at $15k for 25Gh.

How did you order this? It isn't on the website.

They are announcing the mini rig box this week. I originally ordered a couple rig boxes.

matthewh3

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Well the board I chose is the cheapest in its class for warranty and power use for hash rate. Its nearest competitor is two of the new x6500 FPGAs boards and this board works out cheaper. I so much want a rig box and nearly convinced someone to lend me the money for a full rig box but they wouldn't do it in the end as the warranty was only six months and I had no other way to secure the loan.

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Quote from: jamesg on April 03, 2012, 11:50:01 AM

These prices make almost no sense no matter how little wattage they use. Best value for the money is the mini rig box at $15k for 25Gh.

How did you order this? It isn't on the website.

matthewh3

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:40:47 AM

Quote from: wogaut on April 03, 2012, 11:46:26 AM

So, the (illusive) BFL mini rig box sells for roughly 15k$, is supposed to have 25.1GH/s @ 1250W.
Your (not yet public) company's product sells for roughly 10k$, is supposed to have 7.2GH/s @ 360W.

That's 1.67MH/$ on BFL, 0.72MH/$ for your product.
And 20MH/W on BFL, and the same 20MH/W on your product.

@gigavps, sorry for the redundancy, wrote the message while you posted, but submitted it anyways...

No the BFL is twice the wattage for the same hash rate.

edit: I ment BFL BitForce Single

Hi matthewh3,

My rig boxes, ehm, mini rig boxes should be here in that time frame. As for this new fpga tech you speak about, it makes pretty much no sense to put up twice the amount of money for half the electricity usage. There comes a point when gains in electricial usage no longer make sense. This is pretty much moving from GPU (2-3Mh/w) to singles or mini rigs (10-20Mh/w). Anything over this doesn't save me enough money to put up TWICE the purchase price no matter how long I have to wait.

But alas, we are both comparing vaporware. Well, except the mini rig box is reusing already proven tech.

Best,
gigavps

Yeah but what if you rig-box starts smoking in seven months time Huh

These new boards will take about a year to pay off I think and if there warranty is two years (I know its at least a year) then all the second year is profit. That's a lot of money to risk on a six months warranty but they do say "Who dares wins"

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Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 11:44:52 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:36:13 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:17:40 AM

There is a new company coming out and with that kind of money you'd get 6.4GH/s@320W with change as well from your $10,000.

edit: or 7.2GH/s@360W for just a little bit over $10,000.

These prices make almost no sense no matter how little wattage they use. Best value for the money is the mini rig box at $15k for 25Gh.

Are they shipping within three weeks? This is ~800MH/s@40W per FPGA board at $1129 per board plus $20 US shipping and about $70 European shipping (plus my 1BTC per board commission) shipped within three weeks.

Icarus is ~400MH/s@20W for $569. I could get those now, and probably at $469 ea https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.816986. Is that what your new company is doing?

@gigavps any idea on when a rig box would show up at my door? I'd buy one if I would have it within 8 weeks.

Yes, it sounds very much like the Icarus, the thought crossed my mind.

Unfortunately, the mini rig-box has a supposed 12 weeks lead time (and we don't know the real time yet).

But even with that lead time, do we know if the unknown company will hold their fast shipping time, given that BFL nominally promises 4-6 weeks for their single.

I first ordered a BFL-Single but my investors (Red Star Mining) and I got feed up of waiting so switched to my new supplier. It was a little more expansive but better longer warranty and a lot faster lead time as I'm expecting it to be delivered by next week. First batch are all reserved thw second batch will be shipping within three weeks. Thinking of ordering my second as I can't wait that long for BFL

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What about 7970's, can I get 6 of them on one rig with seasonic 1250 psu and a 890fxz GD65 or GD70 MB?

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:40:47 AM

Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 11:44:52 AM

So, the (illusive) BFL mini rig box sells for roughly 15k$, is supposed to have 25.1GH/s @ 1250W.
Your (not yet public) company's product sells for roughly 10k$, is supposed to have 7.2GH/s @ 360W.

That's 1.67MH/$ on BFL, 0.72MH/$ for your product.
And 20MH/W on BFL, and the same 20MH/W on your product.

@gigavps, sorry for the redundancy, wrote the message while you posted, but submitted it anyways...

No the BFL is twice the wattage for the same hash rate.

edit: I ment BFL BitForce Single

Hi matthewh3,

My rig boxes, ehm, mini rig boxes should be here in that time frame. As for this new fpga tech you speak about, it makes pretty much no sense to put up twice the amount of money for half the electricity usage. There comes a point when gains in electricial usage no longer make sense. This is pretty much moving from GPU (2-3Mh/w) to singles or mini rigs (10-20Mh/w). Anything over this doesn't save me enough money to put up TWICE the purchase price no matter how long I have to wait.

But alas, we are both comparing vaporware. Well, except the mini rig box is reusing already proven tech.

Best,
gigavps

wogaut

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So basically the difference is proposed shipping time and warranty?

@this_time: so true...

this time

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At $1.5/MH, there is a real possibility you will never get your initial investment back.

matthewh3

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:36:13 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:17:40 AM

There is a new company coming out and with that kind of money you'd get 6.4GH/s@320W with change as well from your $10,000.

edit: or 7.2GH/s@360W for just a little bit over $10,000.

These prices make almost no sense no matter how little wattage they use. Best value for the money is the mini rig box at $15k for 25Gh.

Are they shipping within three weeks? This is ~800MH/s@40W per FPGA board at $1129 per board plus $20 US shipping and about $70 European shipping (plus my 1BTC per board commission) shipped within three weeks.

Icarus is ~400MH/s@20W for $569. I could get those now, and probably at $469 ea https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.816986. Is that what your new company is doing?

@gigavps any idea on when a rig box would show up at my door? I'd buy one if I would have it within 8 weeks.

No this is a US company. I'd like the rig-box for that kind of money being one unit but when is it going to be shipped and if it has the same six month warranty that's a big risk on your investment. The boards I'm on about have a minimum of twelve months warranty not sure would have to clear that up. Don't think the Icarus has any warranty Huh

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Quote from: gnar1ta$ on April 03, 2012, 11:44:52 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:36:13 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:17:40 AM

There is a new company coming out and with that kind of money you'd get 6.4GH/s@320W with change as well from your $10,000.

edit: or 7.2GH/s@360W for just a little bit over $10,000.

These prices make almost no sense no matter how little wattage they use. Best value for the money is the mini rig box at $15k for 25Gh.

Are they shipping within three weeks? This is ~800MH/s@40W per FPGA board at $1129 per board plus $20 US shipping and about $70 European shipping (plus my 1BTC per board commission) shipped within three weeks.

Icarus is ~400MH/s@20W for $569. I could get those now, and probably at $469 ea https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.816986. Is that what your new company is doing?

@gigavps any idea on when a rig box would show up at my door? I'd buy one if I would have it within 8 weeks.

Yes, it sounds very much like the Icarus, the thought crossed my mind.

Unfortunately, the mini rig-box has a supposed 12 weeks lead time (and we don't know the real time yet).

But even with that lead time, do we know if the unknown company will hold their fast shipping time, given that BFL nominally promises 4-6 weeks for their single.

gnar1ta$

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:36:13 AM

Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:17:40 AM

There is a new company coming out and with that kind of money you'd get 6.4GH/s@320W with change as well from your $10,000.

edit: or 7.2GH/s@360W for just a little bit over $10,000.

These prices make almost no sense no matter how little wattage they use. Best value for the money is the mini rig box at $15k for 25Gh.

Are they shipping within three weeks? This is ~800MH/s@40W per FPGA board at $1129 per board plus $20 US shipping and about $70 European shipping (plus my 1BTC per board commission) shipped within three weeks.

Icarus is ~400MH/s@20W for $569. I could get those now, and probably at $469 ea https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.816986. Is that what your new company is doing?

@gigavps any idea on when a rig box would show up at my door? I'd buy one if I would have it within 8 weeks.

wogaut

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Quote from: matthewh3 on April 03, 2012, 11:40:47 AM

So, the (illusive) BFL mini rig box sells for roughly 15k$, is supposed to have 25.1GH/s @ 1250W.
Your (not yet public) company's product sells for roughly 10k$, is supposed to have 7.2GH/s @ 360W.

That's 1.67MH/$ on BFL, 0.72MH/$ for your product.
And 20MH/W on BFL, and the same 20MH/W on your product.

@gigavps, sorry for the redundancy, wrote the message while you posted, but submitted it anyways...

No the BFL is twice the wattage for the same hash rate.

The mini-rig box (and full rig-box)is supposed to have 25.1GH/s @ 1250W (50.2GH/s @ 2500W full rig box), that's *getmycalculator* 20MH/W.

...and your 800MH @ 40W are *gettheverysamecalculator* 20MH/W.

matthewh3

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So, the (illusive) BFL mini rig box sells for roughly 15k$, is supposed to have 25.1GH/s @ 1250W.
Your (not yet public) company's product sells for roughly 10k$, is supposed to have 7.2GH/s @ 360W.

That's 1.67MH/$ on BFL, 0.72MH/$ for your product.
And 20MH/W on BFL, and the same 20MH/W on your product.

@gigavps, sorry for the redundancy, wrote the message while you posted, but submitted it anyways...

No the BFL is twice the wattage for the same hash rate.

edit: I ment BFL BitForce Single

wogaut

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So, the (illusive) BFL mini rig box sells for roughly 15k$, is supposed to have 25.1GH/s @ 1250W.
Your (not yet public) company's product sells for roughly 10k$, is supposed to have 7.2GH/s @ 360W.

That's 1.67MH/$ on BFL, 0.72MH/$ for your product.
And 20MH/W on BFL, and the same 20MH/W on your product.

@gigavps, sorry for the redundancy, wrote the message while you posted, but submitted it anyways...

matthewh3

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