Whats the point of the 20 words seed phrase

tenant48

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Quote from: Cricktor on December 24, 2024, 01:04:40 PM

I took a brief look at the documentation about Shamir Backup of Keystone. The documentation merely describes what it is and how to set it up, but I couldn't figure out e.g. if it is compatible with the shards that new Trezor Safe devices create (I doubt it). As mentioned my main concern is interoperability.

Shamir Backup (SLIP39) is a standard created by SatoshiLabs, shards created in Trezor wallets will be compatible with Keystone wallets.
https://blog.keyst.one/why-keystone-implemented-shamir-backups-71e319f972a6

You can also create shards using the converter.

Cricktor

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Quote from: tenant48 on December 24, 2024, 02:21:45 AM

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OK, a shard reveals some metadata but still nothing about what it encrypts and this is the main point and what differentiates it from simple partitioning of a secret. I get your point though.

I took a brief look at the documentation about Shamir Backup of Keystone. The documentation merely describes what it is and how to set it up, but I couldn't figure out e.g. if it is compatible with the shards that new Trezor Safe devices create (I doubt it). As mentioned my main concern is interoperability.

tenant48

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Quote from: Cricktor on December 23, 2024, 06:06:22 PM

none of those shards reveal any information about what they encode.

Each shard contains information about share groups and the group threshold.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.64685551

Quote from: Cricktor on December 23, 2024, 06:06:22 PM

There are reasons to evolve BIP39 recovery words and somebody has to make the first steps. My only problem with Trezor's new approach is that they are at present likely the only ones who support it. I don't know if other wallets will follow up and thus interoperability is hampered or rather cut off.

Keystone also supports Shamir backup.
https://guide.keyst.one/docs/shamir-backup

Cricktor

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By a quick glance over this thread, no one mentioned one rather important property of Shamir Secret shards: a single shard doesn't reveal anything about what it encodes. More specifically, if you have less shards than the minimum required, none of those shards reveal any information about what they encode.

This is different to if you simply split mnemonic recovery words into parts, where each part reveals a subset of the mnemonic recovery words.

There are reasons to evolve BIP39 recovery words and somebody has to make the first steps. My only problem with Trezor's new approach is that they are at present likely the only ones who support it. I don't know if other wallets will follow up and thus interoperability is hampered or rather cut off.

Saint-loup

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Yes you can do it yourself by using a shamir sharing scheme like the one below (2 out of 3 scheme) : only x-1 shares must miss one word at most (for a x out of y scheme). The iancoleman page also offers this option (for 2 out of 3 only) , if you don't understand how to do it yourself (Show split mnemonic cards right below the BIP39 Mnemonic field). But you should notice, there is not any checksum and with a 12 words seed, only 4 words are missing on each part for a 2 out of 3 scheme. That is to say with one share you can find the whole seed by trying 2048 x 2048 x 2048 x 2048 ie 2048⁴ combinations.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: new19980 on November 17, 2024, 10:38:41 AM

Hi guys i want to know whats the benefits of this new 20 words seed phrase created by Trezor

It is not seed phrase. It is Shamir secret sharing. If you go for 1 share, no difference at all. It is useless. But if you go for more shares, you will need the the minimum required number of shares to recover your coins. Example is if the shares are 3 and you need 2 minimum, if someone get access to 1, the person can not access your coins unless he founds the two. But I will prefer to use seed phrase and passphrase instead.

Quote from: DireWolfM14 on November 17, 2024, 10:51:22 AM

If you use the Shamir’s Secret-Sharing method to secure your seed phrase in multiple locations it's more secure than a 12-word seed phrase and encodes more data in checksums.

It depends. The seed phrase can be extended with passphrase which is also very safe if the passphrase is strong. This will not let me use Shamir secret sharing.

DireWolfM14

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Quote from: new19980 on November 17, 2024, 10:38:41 AM

Hi guys i want to know whats the benefits of this new 20 words seed phrase created by Trezor
I mean according to what i did understand from this is that you will have multiple shares of the seed
but you can do the same with the 12 words or 24 words i can simply split that to 3 or 4 shares of papers and
share each one with a trusted person Roll Eyes

Math.

If you use the Shamir’s Secret-Sharing method to secure your seed phrase in multiple locations it's more secure than a 12-word seed phrase and encodes more data in checksums.

Quote from: https://trezor.io/learn/a/multi-share-backup-on-trezor?source=post_page-----bff078922644--------------------------------

Each Recovery Share is a 20-word list where:

The first two words are random, but the same for all shares in one backup
The third and fourth words contain information about share groups and the group threshold
The following 13 words (i.e., word 5 to 17) represent the actual seed
The final three words (i.e., word 18 to 20) form the SLIP39 checksum

Also this:

Quote from: https://blog.trezor.io/20-word-wallet-backup-your-questions-answered-bff078922644

Why introduce a 20-word wallet backup (also known as Single-share Backup)?
We believe the 20-word standard is an evolution of the previous standard (12 and 24-word wallet backup) with many significant improvements. It includes:

Upgraded wordlist for easy recall and recovery: All words in the enhanced standard are carefully chosen to be highly distinguishable from each other in terms of spelling and pronunciation, simplifying the backup and recovery process. For example, the legacy backup wordlist contains similar words like “all,” “wall,” “fall,” “call,” and “ball,” making it easy to write down incorrect words and jeopardize wallet security.

Stronger checksum for enhanced fault tolerance: The enhanced standard utilizes the last three words as a checksum, providing better protection against errors. This allows users to identify and correct mistakes more easily, ensuring a more robust backup.

Faster typing with optimized word selection: The words in the upgraded wordlist are selected so they require fewer keystrokes and have simpler patterns, making them quicker to type on a T9 keyboard. This reduces the time required for data entry and improves user efficiency.

new19980

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Hi guys i want to know whats the benefits of this new 20 words seed phrase created by Trezor
I mean according to what i did understand from this is that you will have multiple shares of the seed
but you can do the same with the 12 words or 24 words i can simply split that to 3 or 4 shares of papers and
share each one with a trusted person Roll Eyes

Topic: Whats the point of the 20 words seed phrase (Read 113 times)