Topic: when should you shoot a cop (Read 5508 times)

You see a contradiction where there is none.  Your personality, your self, is an idea.  And you are alive.

You enforce Ideas .

I'll enforce life first and foremost. Fine?

What I mean is that life only exists in ideas.  Take away ideas like language and culture and there is nothing left.  To say that you disagree with an idea is fine.  But you say that these ideas stupid but that you can't convince people to agree with you.  Maybe the ideas are not so stupid?

And where did i stated they don't matter ? Actually i stated that these are the ones that matter . Ideas . Being the ones that matter doesn't mean they aren't stupid. And why? because life will always be more important then any idea. At least for me.

To say that something only exists in our minds is not to take away from it being real.  Ideas matter - in many ways they are all that matters.

I think I'm qualified to say whatever the fuck I want. It's up to each and every one of us to decide weather It's correct or not.

So you want a sentence ? I doesn't matter if i stop believing as long as others around me still believe. If they are stronger (in numbers or more armed ) they will force their beliefs on me. It's never about them , it's always about US .. AL of US.

And states don't exist ... merely in our minds. Just like God , Laws , Morals , etc. , etc..

FTFY.

So you can't put a sentence together and feel qualified to tell people who believe they are free that they are deluded.

Nice.

No .

Try that as a sentence with a subject and a verb please.

Not in theirs in our.

So you feel qualified to tell other people that they are not really free - its just all in their minds.

Interesting.

I actually understood that he knows he ain't free yet but he knows why. Because other slaves enforce slavery.

I would continue and say that whenever we create society (state , religion , law , country , nation, morality ,etc. etc.) we also create slavery . As long as we will view this Fictions as more valuable than individual life and free will we won't be free.

And the sad truth is that most are afraid to take decisions , so they love it when someone else , or the community takes the decision for them.

So Bind, you falsely believe you are free.

What exactly are we meant to do about it?  If you are happy with your life, whats the problem?

It makes sense to you, because you are conditioned to think that way.

It makes sense to you, because you are conditioned to think that cops are authority figures.

It makes sense to you, because you are conditioned to believe you do not have equal rights under the law.

Its about fear ... its about control.

Even in the slavery of the blacks there were blacks who were given weapons, special privilages, better food, better clothing, special "rights", more freedom of movement, less work, authority over other blacks, even some education, and a badge, hat, or symbol so they could be recognized as ENFORCERS, so the other blacks would fear them in order to control them, and the slave masters could tell them apart.

They were still slaves, but they facilliated, participated, and most importantly, ENFORCED their own enslavement and the enslavement of their people by this conditioning.

Quite often, a slave got uppity and needed to be disciplined. After obeying for a time, they got special privilages, like being LICENSED to drive the horse and wagon (the vehicle of the time) to town to pick up deliveries or to chauffer a friend or family membr of the slavemaster. However, the slave master wanted INSURANCE in case the slave damaged someone elses property in the course of their duties using the conveyance, so that the slave master was not personally liable for any damages. The slave had to adhere to a strict set of RULES AND REGULATIONS (the vehicle code of that time) handed down by the slavemaster and insurer.

Not only blacks but slavery throughout history where an elite ruled over the people.

Major plantation owners (slavemasters) and their descendents became our financial, corporate, and political elite families we recognize today. This is not by accident.

You have been indoctrinated, manipulated, and propagandized. We all have. We are slaves unless we are a member of their families and friends power structure.

All we have to do is stand up and say NO and claim our rights, but we dont do that. We fight amongst ourselves enabling them to divide and conquer us. Control us. When its us who should be controlling them.

When a few actually figure this all out they go into depression. When they come out of their depression, the reality hits different people differently. Some educated others. Others strike out at their oppressors. Others rebel and revolt when infringed upon. Some, like those are Waco and Ruby Ridge, do all of the above and are crushed when they try to live free, then the powers in "authority" propagandize them and mow them down to teach the rest of us what happens when Toby The Slave gets uppity, while trying to use it to manipulate us into thinking militia, constitution, and sovereignty are bad. Ancient relics of a long expired past that should be burried and forgotten.

History constantly repeats itself. Throughout history, oppressive and tyrannical leaders have fallen to the will and power of the people. Throughout history, ALL civillizations have fallen.

You can not regulate a right. That turns a right into a privilage and/or a benefit metered out by authority.

Why do you think there is such a war against personal sovereignty, militias, and the constitution?

Why do they have us fighting each other, so we do not concentrate on the real issues plaguing us and fighting them.

They would rather us fight each other in civil war than to fight them, so they will always hold the power, influence, and control, and guide us on the path they wish us to go down. This is why they created and gave us political parties and stupid meaningless "kitchen table issues" to fight each other over, all the while those political parties are completely identical and synchronized at the top and on the major issues plaguing and affecting us daily.

"... None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free ..."
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

If someone is doing nothing but traveling with dark windows and a cop feels he'd be putting life in danger (his) then he needs to let it go. Pulling a gun for having dark windows is major escalation. I don't think a cop has a right to take money from someone with dark windows any more than I have that right. But if they are really set on that style extortion then send a letter in the mail. You've got their plate number, name, address. This doesn't need to be done with a gun on the side of the road.

It makes sense to me.  If the officer can't see that the person in the vehicle isn't pulling a gun on them, they've got to take steps to protect themselves.

I don't think they're justified either. But our criminal justice system doesn't see anything wrong with it, and therefore is likely to see something wrong with someone responding with guns to guns, because "cops are supposed to point them".

The first goal of self defense is to wake up again tomorrow. The second goal, in my humble opinion almost equal to the first, is to do that in your own bed and not behind bars.

Again, my point was that you're right, "never" is not the correct answer. But of the tiny percentage of people who will have to actually defend themselves, a tinier still percentage of those people will have to do it from a guy with a badge (and you don't need some swarznegger/stallone plot to come up with scenarios why) - but they're skating on thin ice legally.

I completely disagree that an officer is justified in pulling a gun on you for having dark windshields.

That said I certainly would not shoot in that spot or encourage anyone else to.

All I'm saying ITT is that anyone saying "never" isn't thinking.

I'll concede that if you consider "travelling" to not be "operating a motor vehicle", then even so...This is what I'm talking about earlier. If you consider being extracted from your vehicle at gunpoint because you're engaging in behavior that's considered threatening to the safety of officers, to be an unlawful act - then the standard self-defense rules apply. Get into a shootout with the cops, but then the other part of what I said applies (and doubly so):

Be sure you're right, and that what the officer's doing is actually unlawful. I'm not sure the courts would agree with you that it is, and bearing in mind that in that exact situation (it wasn't what I really had in mind when I talked about cops acting unlawful, but to each their own) if you're wrong, you're on the hook for shooting a cop. In some states (yours at minimum, I'm guessing) you're risking the injection if you're wrong and you kill the poor bastard anyway.

I don't drive a motor vehicle. Those are for commercial entities. I travel in an automobile for personal pleasure. That is a right.

Anyways, read Common Law some time. It probably doesn't apply to you since you revoked your right to travel when you signed your license.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cci5MSvsSmc

Holy shit there's so much wrong with this paragraph, it's comical:


You don't have a "common law right" to travel with darker windshields. You don't even have a common law right to operate a motor vehicle, it's a privilege (though the same could be said about firearms ownership in most states, the lines are pretty blurred).

The gun won't usually be in your face (again, let's try keep emotions and action-movie masturbation to a minimum if we're going to have a serious discussion about defensive firearms use) - if they're going to extract you from a vehicle with tinted windows they'll usually tell you over the PA to stay put while they wait for another officer. Then they point the guns at you from a fair distance, and ask you to slowly exit the vehicle with your hands up. Then it's either hands on the roof, the hood, or get on your belly so they can approach for a pat-down. Most of which is utterly negated if you know the procedure cops take, and you turn your dome light on, roll down your window and put 8 fingers out over the edge of the door so they can see you're not going to shoot 'em.

My point was that there are (albeit questionable ethics, I'll concede that) lawful scenarios where a cop might point a gun at you - it's part and parcel of having a strong right to bear arms. In the unlikely event it ceases to be a lawful action, regular self-defense rules apply.

I can't think of any time it's lawful for a person to harass me for using my common law right to travel while having darker windshields. The officer's safety should never come into question when I'm using my property and not aggressing against another person. A gun in my face is emotionally distressing and harm against my person. My preference in my property does not entail that.

What? Cops, by definition of their jobs, have responsibilities above plumbers and other citizens. A cop pointing a gun at you is, depending on the jurisdiction, not necessarily a deadly threat. If you have illegal tint on your windows of your car and you get pulled over at night, there's a pretty good chance you'll be extracted at gunpoint just for the safety of the officer, and as long as they follow protocol it's usually not unlawful. I can't think of any comparable scenario where a plumber can point a gun at you and it's lawful.

But as I said, if the cop isn't acting in a lawful manner, then he's just some asshole with a gun - same as the plumber. That's the distinction.

Yeah, I agree. 'Never' is self evidently wrong.


That's really convenient, no?

Why magic rules here? If we said "When should you shoot a plumber?" would you say, "Never, if he starts killing you with his plunger he's not a plumber anymore."?

'Profession' doesn't matter. Either you protect your self from dangerous humans or you don't.

The police system is horribly corrupt. Don't assume cops will be held accountable for their wrong-doings.

... and 5 minutes later you woke up with a handful of melted ice cream.

You don't need to go completely over the top in your scenario to prove "never" is wrong, you simply need to point out that when a cop acts outside the law, he ceases to be a cop, so the standard self defense rules apply. In the very unlikely event that this scenario coincides with said "cop" threatening to cause you immediate harm, again, depending on numerous factors such as where you live, you should have the right to defend yourself. Just make damn sure that you're right about what the cop's doing, because if it turns out he's giving you a lawful order and you blow him away... well let's just say cop killers don't get the greatest of treatment by the criminal justice system.

Really? Do you have no imagination?

Cop and his partner break in your door. Cop kills your family then his partner. Explains how you are going to prison for the murders because the gun he used is unregistered and he's going to put your prints on it, not to mention testify that you did it.

But he's lowered his weapon and didn't expect you'd have one inside your jacket.

Never is bull.

Ah, ok, that makes sense.

Because your point of view is an ultimate penalty. And that should be your decision to make not mine , not your neighbors , not ours ,your and your Only.  Because only you know how the theft affected you. I'm not saying your viewpoint is bad or good , all I'm saying that i don't want a law like that
this is just my view point.

I wasn't really trying to force people into my viewpoint.  Just trying to understand why my viewpoint isn't held by others...

Consent on what seems right/wrong to you.

never..

Not sure what you mean by "don't try to make others consent".  Consent to what?

Its good to see alot of "free-minded" people in discussion about a very important and urgent topic. And for those of you who spewed "never" or anything along those lines, you need to wake up from that dream your living in. Bitcoin seems to attract the extremes on both sides, those who are competely 'in the know', and those who have no idea wtf is going on.

Then do what you believe is right and assume the responsibility don't try to make others consent.

To clarify, it was things OUTSIDE the house that were stolen.  I'd probably have moved by now if they were break and enter thefts!  Had a bicycle in my gated carport that was stolen, a pumpkin a few days ago off my porch, my wife's car gone though, a Christmas wreath from the front door disappeared, etc.  Doesn't make one put much faith in the neighborhood, or the legal system for that matter.  If it were up to me, I'd spend some nights sitting in my darkened living room with the rifle loaded and a window open.

@SgtSpike Wow 5 break-ins! That might change my opinion also. I still might not shoot a burglar if I caught him, but I might rob him before letting him go.

You got me there.  I can't think of anything that is worth more than a life.

I suppose I am the type who would post up a sign on my property that says "trespassers will be shot".  Not because trespassers deserve to be shot, but because I would want to keep people off of my property who might do something malicious to me, my family, or my things.  And really, as soon as someone enters my property without authorization or good reason (i.e., the postman delivery a package to my door or something equally legitimate), I would feel that my life is threatened.  I would much rather avoid confrontation entirely than have those feelings.

And I love avoiding confrontation through threats.  If I was lawfully able to shoot anyone who came on my property and tried to steal my things, then there'd be a lot less of that happening.  But since I am not lawfully able to defend my property with the threat of killing anyone who tries to take it, there's a lot of theft.  Thieves know that, no matter what they do, they are not risking losing their life by stealing from people.  If that were a real threat, they might reconsider their choice of career.

FWIW, I've had things stolen from around my house five times now since I moved there three years ago.  None of the times I actually witnessed the theft, but it's dang frustrating that there's little I can do about it except file a useless police report.

I don't know sarge. Do you really own anything worth more than a life? It's not that I'm a pacifist, like any American I have all sorts of guns and I have a Utah permit to carry. But I would not shoot anyone for stealing my stuff, even my bitcoins.
I've seen war and killing on three continents now, they are not good memories.

But why is it ok to just let someone run off with your things?  Why do I not have a right to do whatever I need to do to ensure my property isn't stolen?

Also related to this subject - why can a trespasser sue me if they trip over a rake that I left in my yard?  Just seems so wrong...

What do you meant you ain't able? You are fully able unless you are retarded. It's just that it's illegal and might get you in prison and rightly so because your life was never in danger. But sure enough you are able.

I think it's terrible that we cannot shoot criminals for theft.  If someone's stealing my car, why SHOULDN'T I be able to shoot them?

There'd be a heck of a lot less theft if people were actually able to defend their own property properly.

You should shoot anybody that significantly aggresses against your person. I couldn't care less if he was a cop. The right to my life, the rights of my family and property comes above all.

Never shoot a cop.


Idiots.

Of course you'd want to avoid ever being in this sort of situation in the first place. Even if you were right to respond with force you either be overwhelmed by his backup or have a hell of a fight to prove yourself to the courts and if you fail be likely risking a death penalty.

If you're strong enough to physically overpower him without putting yourself in unreasonable danger, you should.  If that's not possible, drawing a gun and ordering him to stand down is reasonable.  If he continues to attempt the rape (or attempts to rush you), shooting him is then likely the minimum force necessary to prevent a violent crime.

Property crimes are variable, but to prevent violent crime I'm pretty sure that "minimum reasonable force" is legal in every state.  Some states allow you to escalate your use of force faster than this, but I'm not aware of any that would require you to stand aside while a rape is in progress.

I don't think I can kill anyone in my state to stop a rape. Rape does not mean that your life is in danger. Fortunately he specifically added that he is going to also kill them. So, bang bang. Footstep footstep, bang.

That is like saying end God , end religion , end any other fictional entity/force we ever came up with.

 Extremely hard to accomplish.

Laws are fiction . The state also , just like God and Satan .

End The State?

DON'T be afraid bro' ... BE CAUTIOUS .

FEAR IS a WEAKNESS and stupid.
CAUTION IS RATIONAL and WISE.

Traditionally, law enforcement were to serve and protect the people and the constitution of the united states. That tradition is evaporating as cops are being taught to do as they are told and trained. They are being transformed into enforcers for their superiors and government. They are being taught that the people are their main enemies. To secure the control grid. All wrapped up in the term "domestic terrorism". People are waking up, getting fed up, and thumbing their noses at authority, when its the people who are the supreme authority. See the problem ?

You do not have to tremble to be fearful. I fear law enforcements and government ignorance and totalitarian tactics. It is wise to be fearful of those who can affect your existence. Most animals strike out of fear, including us humans. Some tremble, but others use that fear as a catalyst to facilitate change. Meaningful change.

We should be free and safe, but we are not. Therein lies the rub.

I doubt he'll admit that he spoke hastily. He does that sort of thing frequently. He also doesn't understand libertarianism if he thinks most libertarians advocate shooting/killing people just because they are stealing. Self-defense should be proportional to the threat. You can't shoot a guy that's stealing your car but you can tase him, spray him with mace, etc.

So which is it? Never or when those pose immediate danger?

The "rights" depend on where you live, but here's the distinction. A gang of guys, invading your property when it's just you, your wife, and three kids (whom for the sake of argument we'll pretend are all below 10) - the moment they enter your house you're pretty much "in imminent danger". If they're armed, even better. Unless you live in a completely "won't someone think of the children" state, and as long as you don't do anything boneheaded, you stand a pretty good chance of getting away with blowing away all three.

But that doesn't mean you can put a bullet in someone's back as he drives off with your tractor and get away with it, no matter how much of a romantic, movie-like story you can come up with.

I don't think cops are special, just that you really have no right killing/shooting anyone unless they impose an imminent danger to someone (and no, libertarians, not danger to your "things", danger to people)
[/quote]

Really, so I have no right to protect my property?  So lets see here libard, say you got a home and 3 kids and a wife.  And lets say you are a farmer, with a tractor, cows, etc.  A group of bad guys come, they want all your cows and your tracker, and all your stuff in the house, wife's wedding ring and all.

You do what?

I on the other-hand, use good gun control, acquire targets quickly, and shoot.  I don't stop shooting until I have complete submission or surrender.

Unfortunately, no.  We're not free and safe.

If you defensively resist the illegal actions of a cop, you'll get roughed up a bit, arrested, and then eventually take a plea bargain for 6-12 months for some BS charge so that they don't put you on trial for "assaulting a police officer" and put you away for 6-12 years.

Resist harder and they'll just shoot you on the spot.  They'll get some review that finds that their actions were reasonable under the circumstances, and no one will question what they were doing to you beforehand.  The only exception is if your buddy catches the whole thing on video and posts it to youtube.... Then they get fired.  For killing you.

Want to try it out on a small scale?  Try the TSA.  Go do ANYTHING that isn't completely compliant, subservient behavior (question their authority, complain about them groping you, ask to see a manager, refuse to comply with some inconsequential thing, whatever), and you'll find yourself detained for at least a few hours, and possibly end up with a criminal record depending on the words that come out of your mouth during that time.

There are tons of cases where someone does something seemingly innocent without any malice or criminal intent who then gets dragged through the system...  All you have to do is stand out in some way that draws their attention, and they'll find a way to make your life hell.  Convict you?  Probably not, but they'll wreck your life for months and you'll run up tens of thousands in defense costs.

The US is a police state, and it's getting constantly worse.

I don't think cops are special, just that you really have no right killing/shooting anyone unless they impose an imminent danger to someone (and no, libertarians, not danger to your "things", danger to people)

I don't care about flags, I assumed someone who thinks cops are special might.

The rest of your sentence means that I don't give a fuck if it's Santa Clause doing it, he's a dead motherfucker...

... so why include this bit? You can wipe your ass with whatever flag you want, that doesn't mean I have any right to shoot you. These first few words weaken your argument so much and make you look like a dumbshit "patriot".

You know why terrorists burn the US flag? Because it fucking gets to you.

A cop has no more or less rights than you and I, especially when they act unlawfully. Remember equal protection under the law ? When a cop acts unlawfully, are they still a cop ? Of course not. They are a criminal, whether they realize it or not. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

The supreme court agrees vis-a-vis John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529 and many other cases if you look around, but we are a fearful people. We have been taught to listen to authority and do/go/say/think/feel what we are told by authority. To be good little worker bees and feed the system. They make it so expensive, time consuming, frustrating, and problematic to question authority.

It doesn't matter if a cop or not. Question should be - when should you shoot a person?

When it initializes physical violence and/or it's actions obstruct LIFE (not way of life).

He just wiped his ass with your favorite flag and is raping your wife and yelling about how he's going to kill your kids.

Grab another beer because it is apparently my bachelor party

Touchy subject. If a police offer comes into your house without a warrant; starts hitting on you. What do you do?

NEVER

http://www.copblock.org/5475/when-should-you-shoot-a-cop/