Topic: Where's the money, Lebowski? (Read 8774 times)

I don't think that many people are aware of the new forums, maybe launching an official beta testing event could help recruiting more users.
(Suggestion: They can also be more interested if they could earn few cents for every bug reported.)

beta.bitcointalk.org has advanced a lot since then. Work continues. I think that technically it would be possible to migrate ~now -- the database migration code has already been written --, but I want to be absolutely sure that there will be no issues. (It'd be nice if there was more beta participation...)

Came across this interesting thread by accident.

Couple of years later, https://beta.bitcointalk.org/ is up, but no migration still?

As long as the subject wasn't trash to begin with, and more participation increases it, and its not trolling. I don't think you meet any of the requirements to 24hr bump this thread.

Dear mods: It is my understanding that I'm allowed to bump my own thread once every 24 hrs, as long as its subject remains unresolved.
Kindly refrain from deleting posts you feel are too terse/you do not like/don't understand.
ty

All right, thank you. I guess I'll wait a bit more before using it. Obvious not easy to copy a live server...

b ..buht...

OIC.

Happy New Year

The database sync was a few months back; constantly migrating the data would be redundant since it was not going to be used by almost anyone. "Most of the stuff doesn't work" is just wrong.

So, by "using it now," you meant what, exactly? Databases aren't synched, most of the stuff doesn't work, most of the posts don't display, so useless for its intended purpose. What were you doing with it?

I'll wait the official 'release' before try epochtalk, I don't feel comfortable to put my access data there or to reset the password (I started the procedure but after I've deleted the email). However, happy new year to all you.

Everybody lies. However, in this case I'm not.

The updates are manual. Importing from the servers that the current forum is using is not as easy as it sounds (without downtime).

Wasn't aware that the beta was live! Looking good so far Does the database update from time to time, or are you manually updating things just for testing? Is it possible to start using the beta version regularly?

1. "if I missed the 2 million dollar beta" != 2 million dollars is missing. Parsing error.
2. Been covered, start here.

So. Lying through your teeth?

I was able to login however it does not appear to be updated/live and my posts seem to not be migrated.

Yes. I'm not sure if it is possible for people that have not been chosen (e.g. currently staff members) to log in right now. IIRC everyone who wants to participate in the Beta will have to reset their password anyways.

Does the beta happen to be at https://beta.bitcointalk.org/?

I tried logging in but I got this error:

Missed 2 million? Nothing is missed, theymos has the right to do whatever he wants with that money. ATM all the data from this forum has been transferred to the Beta. However, I'm not sure how it is going to work while both forums are active (Beta being public and this forum still being mainly used), but eventually it should merge into a single one.

Sure. These things take time. Just checking in, seeing if I missed the 2 million dollar beta of our new bbs forum software.
Oh, since you're in the loop, how will the beta interact with this, the legacy forum? Share the database?

Happy New Year!

Read the fine print. It is not ready yet; it's coming though. These things take a lot of time as previously said, especially since even moderators are asking for certain features from time to time.

Not yet?

This thread isn't about theymos' skills as a project manager.

Imagine hiring a contractor to build you a bathroom.
Now imagine looking at the bill, and learning that 2.3 million dollars of your money went to a company called 'Sewage,' to design and build a toilet seat. From scratch.

Q: Would your first thought be:
    a. "Why is my bathroom not finished yet"?
    b. "Perhaps hiring Sewage to designing a toilet seat from scratch wasn't such a smart idea."
    c. "Call me jaded, but there's something not right here.'
    d. "I wasn't doing anything with that 2.3 mill anyhow, maybe the toilet seat will be real nice when its done'

mexxer-2; XinXan: your catty, ad hominem and completely off-topic remarks -- that's trolling.

It seems that lately a few newbie accounts have been used to troll the forum, like the other guy called fwxsh or something like that, I wonder if they are all the same person hiding on newbie accounts.

I believe OP's intention was asking the same thing, then start arguing about how much theymos has spent on it(a tactic similar to Goat's). But as the question has been "over-asked" , this was probably done to stir things up

New forum software will be exciting to see

They're all just as they should be, except for Theymos. Most likely he used the funds for the upcoming forum UI.

Hey, an even better question, where's the new forum, lebrowski?

Had I claimed to be the owner of this website (or the king of Siam), and logged in from an account created last year, you mean? Yes, it would be hugely hypocritical.
I claim to be no one beyond Anon, so I guess the short answer is 'no.'

BTW, next time anyone tells you they own this forum (or the Brooklyn Bridge)? Consider not simply taking their word for it.

What would they leave? Besides, there is still a ton of BTC owned by the forum, and the advertisements are a constant source of income so as long as people use the forum, there will be money.

Spending over a million dollars for a forum and paying with BTC when BTC is still a child instead of leaving something for the future of the forum?

I've been reading this thread for a few days and wasn't gonna comment but you OP just forced it. You tell cobra to post from their main acct but yet youre hiding behind your alt??? Hypocrite much?

Because account is registered in 2014.
Because bitcoin.org != bitcointalk.org.
Because 'one of the administrators of bitcoin.org' != 'owner of bitcointalk.org.
Because posting from main account is not complicated.

Profile: https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/cobra-249495
Admin notes:   This is one of the administrators of bitcoin.org
Dunno why you complicate things, be patient..we will see everything soon.

Please post from your main account to confirm.

that remains to be seen when the forum software is completed ;-)
i expect something great....if not well...then you are right.

regards and thanks for bitcointalk!

theymos is the co-owner of the bitcointalk.org domain (along with me). So technically, theymos and myself do own this forum. We're not accountable to any shareholders or a board, so your CEO analogy is irrelevant.

It's more accurate to think of the money as being donated to theymos personally, rather than "bitcointalk", because "bitcointalk" doesn't exist as an actual legal entity. Though theymos is under a moral obligation to spend the money on new forum software, which he's done. Though I won't deny that the money probably could have been spent more efficiently.

You know that copy of Windows for Workgroups you're still running, because the custom security patches you made would be a 'big pain in the ass' to port to Windows 8?
You know how you're writing your own OS from scratch, so you could use those security cludges you wrote?
Well, some claim you might be OK going with Windows 8, even tho

I think that if the donator amount was lowered to that sort of level then it could become attractive to high budget scammers going for a legitimacy play, despite any disclaimers that would be made. A browse thru the Foundation members list turns up some interesting names, as in "whatever happened to them".
I don't have the same depth of interest in where's the muneez as the OP, but if I were to consider donating, I think I'd like to know exactly to what entity I would be giving it which doesn't seem very clear at the moment.
It certainly seems to be an eye watering amount of money to spend on a forum but most of us here accept Theymos' autocracy as a fact.
I think I'd be a little pissed tho if I donated and then read a thread about the new BTC200 virtual water cooler that he's bought for the virtual office.

IIRC he might add another donation tier which would require you to donate less, however he will definitely not be changing the requirements for Donator/VIP (10/50). I don't think the forum needs the money though.

I said up to two months. This means that it could be revealed tomorrow. Cut the nonsense.

Well if the forum is spending more then it is bringing in then it might be in need of additional money to complete the new software.

It is too bad if theymos will not lower the donation requirements. I am not sure I would fork over 10BTC to get a donator tag, I probably would give half that though.

I don't think the forum is hurting for revenue.

Does this mean that you will be soliciting donations again? Maybe with lower thresholds to become a donator/VIP and/or introducing a lower ranked special rank?

Neither. Scroll up and actually read what Lauda posted. You will see that he is saying that the private beta is hosted.

No, that is not what I said. Maybe I wasn't clear enough the first time. Let me try again.

Theymos has made many modifications to the forum software, primarily to patch security issues. I don't know the extent of the changes, but you can search around for them in this forum as they have been mentioned in many posts by Theymos in the past. These changes may not be compatible with the latest software. Introducing these mods to the updated software could introduce new security holes yet those changes may be desired for this forum. To add those changes and then hunt down any potential security bugs is probably not worth the effort.

What makes you say that they have no experience? Do they need experience to create a website? Does this mean that if some web developer who has experience with PHP should not build a forum because he has no experience with forum software even though he is more than capable? This logic makes no sense.

Are you a part of this private beta? Or just guessing with your caplock on?

Two and a half million dollars' worth of a pain in the ass?! This is just frickin' forum software, not rocket surgery.

So what you're telling me is it's easier to do everything from scratch? Easier than starting with hardened, updated & feature-enhanced version of current software, you say?
 
And though this forum has the functionality and looks of an off-the-shelf '09 SMF, theymos completely recoded the back end in hand-optimized assembler, counting clock cycles as he went along, and this '09 SMF is a sleeper with chained death under the hood, correct?

Look, I wanna believe you, but I don't. Because you'd be lying. Find it pretty insulting that you expect me to buy this "Theymos did important, complicated and dangerous stuffs you won't understand because scientific and dangerous, so don't ask!" shit.

Honest? More dangerous than running brand new software coded by dude calling himsel wangbus, who, btw, theymos never even met?
Intrigued, do tell me more.

When new software versions are released nowadays, some of the security holes from the previous versions often get (by oversight and due to shabby workmanship) omitted. Making them difficult, if not outright impossible, to 're-patch.'
Follow this links to SMF to learn the new shit that happened in the software world since '09.

I agree, changing from '09 version to a new major version, one which underwent an extra 7 years of development, might introduce some security vulnerabilities.

Good thing there's no chance of that happening with new software coded by (at best) an unknown company with no experience in coding forum software & beta tested by a handful of toadying yes-men

When you hit the donate button by mistake it doesn't say anything about what the funds will be used for. It's basically a gift to Theymos and Sirius (presumably). They can cash out their swag any way they see fit. We might have thought to invest in something less insubstantial, but that's just us.

I think he is saying that he is accessing the forum on a site that uses the new forum software. That site is a PRIVATE beta of the new software for Bitcointalk. It is essentially another site that mirrors the current one, but it is run by Theymos and therefore is actually Bitcointalk. Since it is a PRIVATE BETA, he is not allowed to disclose any information about said PRIVATE BETA so he cannot post a screenshot. He is NOT running the software on his own box.

The advantages are that all of the modifications that Theymos and all of the other past and present admins that were made will be in the new software. This forum has not been updated to the latest and greatest SMF because the current one works and adding all of the mods and security patches that have already been made would be such a pain in the ass. There have been many changes to the forum software such that to upgrade to a new system could be potentially dangerous. Security holes patched here would need to be re patched. Changes made here would need to be remade. Other problems could crop up with using the new software such as new security vulnerabilities. All in all, it is much more difficult and irritating to upgrade to a newer SMF. Epochtalk will not have those issues since Theymos is dictating what the software will include, so it will definitely have the modifications made here built directly in.

Not before the end of the month? 

I have no idea why it doesn't run on your box, because it's broken? I'm as trusting of this 'private beta' as I am of theymos honestly spending 2.3+ million dollars on new BBS forum software.

What could a screen cap possibly reveal that's not in the source code, exactly?
Why would an open source project be afraid to post screen caps?
How many layers of bullshit are you going to pile on here?

Why would I have it running on my 'box' when the private beta is already hosted (and has been for quite some time)? There's a flaw in your logic. Give it up to 2 more months and you will see why you were wrong.

Not implying anything, Lauda -- telling you that you're lying like a rug.
You did not post a screenshot because you don't have it running on your box.
Just how credulous do you think I am?

Epochtalk is the software behind BTCT AFAIK, that is open source. The new BTCT is not open to the public (yet). Not sure what you think you're implying here, but it is definitely wrong.

>If I had the 'green light' to post a screenshot I would.

You clearly don't understand how open source software works, Secret Squirrel.
Also: Get better at lying, or stop embarrassing yourself.

I don't get anything that I do not deserve by moderating. Me agreeing or disagreeing with theymos (I do on quite a few things) does not affect that at all. The forum is there. If I had the 'green light' to post a screenshot I would. Until then, you will have to be a bit more patient Lebowski.

Pains me to see you reduced to lying and toadying for the few crumbs which fall your way from theymos' table, Lauda.

Спасибо товарищу Сталину за наше счастливое детство!

I will not. If theymos feels like it is the appropriate time to post anything about it, then he will. Who am I to do something?

Everything is better than SMF. Stop trolling. It is pretty obvious that envy is present here.

Post a screenshot or total BS

Please feel free to describe the advantages of the new (as yet unfinished, $2.3 million dollar ++) software over SMF 2.0.11.

Also:
You can not possibly know how secure the new (unfinished and untested) software is.
You can not possibly know how how it will scale.
You can not possibly know what maintenance/community support will be

Also:

*but kudos for knowing who butters your bread.

Wrong. I'm using the new software right now. Stop trolling because you have no evidence to back up such claims.

Nobody needs "millions of dollars just sitting around." This doesn't imply that the only options are "flushing it down the toilet" or "spend it on re-writing existing, in all likelihood superior, and most of all *free,* software."

Also of note:

-After a 2.3-million-dollar expenditure, there is NO NEW FORUM SOFTWARE, better or worse than SMF 1.1.19, the six-year-old 2009 copy of SMF forum software bitcointalk is currently running. There's no product.
-Better forum software already exists, one example is called SMF 2.0.11. It's the Sept. 2015 update of SMF 1.1.19, the six-year-old 2009 copy of SMF forum software bitcointalk is currently running. It's tested, it works, and you can click here to download it for free.
-In the meantime, bitcointalk is still running the shitty six-year-old 2009 copy of SMF software. And will likely do so for the foreseeable future.

But this is all beside the point. The software is just a byproduct -- flotsam and jetsam -- neither here nor there. You know this as well as I do.

The forum simply does not need millions of dollars just sitting around. A forum that makes better forum software..how is that not a good use? I like the idea of better forum software and the fact they open sourced it is a bonus.

>What else was he supposed to do with the money exactly?
You're confused as to what should be done with $2.3 million one has no immediate use for?
You feel that it should be immediately flushed down the toilet? Have you considered *saving* it?

>Theymos owns the forum
No, theymos does not own this forum.
Theymos has never claimed to be the owner of this forum.
Theymos runs this forum, like a CEO runs a company.
The money was not donated to theymos, it was donated to bitcointalk.
When a CEO pockets corporate funds, it's called embezzlement, which is a bad thing.

What else was he supposed to do with the money exactly? Theymos owns the forum and those coins and did with it what he saw fit. Bitcointalk is not a democracy... If Theymos wanted to just pocket the coins he could without any repercussion.

Thus far, theymos has spent 2.3 million dollars to reinvent develop bulletin board forum software, which is still only "about 85% done."
"About 85% done" in devspeak is "In Two Weeks" in ASIC_manufacturer_speak.
If we treat everything theymos says at face value.

Which I do not. I refuse to believe that a man in his right mind would venture to spend millions on new forum software, when developed & tested open-source shareware exists. I refuse to believe that such a man would also find an obscure, zero-web-presence company, and, without ever even meeting the principals, send it $350k and $100k monthly thereafter. I refuse to believe that such a person exists.

Finished forum software, if it ever materializes, will  just be a meaningless byproduct of making the donation coin spendable.
When you hear hooves, think horses.

Not first time people have raised concerns regarding Slickage - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/concerned-about-slickage-studios-split-from-concern-about-the-forum-credit-idea-524113

I find it rather strange someone would give $2 million dollars to a complete stranger, theymos you lying?

Correction:
So make that $2,300,000 and counting.

It is the classic question on how to bill - time & material or fixed price. 
In the list above, if your project brief changes even a little bit, you will have to figure out a way to incorporate it into your contract price (if you go in for a fixed price contract). I am sure the requirements have evolved as the project has progressed.

If you want to see what happens if you give devs a too strick deadline look at videogame releases. Its common that projects (any really, not only software) take longer and require more money. The question is whether you want what you asked for or a set price. If you want exactly what you asked for or something as close as possible you will have to grand more time and/or money. You cant know all problems the developers will run into in advance. I am under the impression that theymos rather wants something solid than something thats done on time or done with a given amount of money. This has certainly limits, but as long as there are funds for the development I dont see an issue.

>inb4 Im brown nosing, have no idea, yadda yadda.

It seems a bit backwards to how I would have expected a contractor to be remunerated.

1. I give you a project brief
2. You give me a quote
3. We agree on a price
4. I pay a portion upfront
5a. You deliver it on time
5b. You deliver it late
6. I pay you the remainder on delivery.

In either scenario they get paid the same - for doing the work that was agreed. Giving someone such a lucrative incentive to do work slower not to deliver seems a recipe for disaster.

Speechless.
So what you're telling me is you have sent $1,950,000, nearly two million dollars, to someone you've "never even met them in person," a dead landing page, http://slickage.com/ ? And this, the most expensive forum software ever, isn't finished yet? And you're still sending 50k/mo to this Slickage?

Is there a fancy GPG-signed contract "non-legal agreement between The Bitcoin Forum ("Forum") and Slickage [...] intended to be enforced in a non-violent, non-legal way by the community"?
Or was this a handshake deal? I take it the drop to 50k/mo is the late completion clause?
Anyhow, cool story bro, but hope you don't expect it to fly IRL.

The forum money I held has largely been spent now, mostly in the forum software project. Slickage was paid $100,000 per month in all of 2014 and until May in 2015. Since June 2015, they've been paid $50,000 per month. The exchange rate varied substantially throughout this period, but the end result is that most of the BTC was spent.

The rate ($85,417/month average as of the end of 2015) might seem high to people unfamiliar with professional software development, but it's normal. The project is quite a bit over-due and over-budget (the original estimate was 1 year and $1.2 million), but I've been constantly monitoring Slickage, and they've definitely been making solid, continual progress, so it seemed correct to continue to project. The vast majority of total forum revenue was from ads, not donations, but to the extent that donations were used: this software was in fact the main stated goal of donations.

As I've said before: I have absolutely no personal relationship to Slickage, and I receive no "kickbacks" whatsoever. I've never even met them in person. I first learned of Slickage from Warren Togami, who had previously done a lot of work for the forum and was himself recommended by gmaxwell and others. (I've also never met Warren in person.)

The current status of the software is that it's ~85% done. The core of it is entirely functional and often much better/faster than SMF, though there are still several missing features. There will be a public beta before the end of the month, I think, at which time I'll post more about what's left to be done. Also see http://epochtalk.org/ for more info.

>is it really important where the money is?
Is how millions of $$$ in donations to bitcointalk was spent important?

>If so, why?
Because the money was not gifted to theymos, it was donated to bitcointalk.
Because the money is vanishing, with nothing to show for it.
Because it looks like a large chunk of the money, for which theymos is responsible, seems to be missing.
Because that shit is called embezzlement.
Because either you know and are being evasive, or you do not, in which case kindly not clutter up the thread. This means you too, redsn0w.
Need more?

Another troll, fantastic !


Maybe you are only jealous because you don't have or you will not have (ever) those btc/money.

After your last post it seems to me like you're trying to troll. Nobody likes trolls here. Regardless, is it really important where the money is? If so, why?

>Regardless of if theymos wants to admit it or not
A detail quite relevant to teh taxman.

>Unless of course the point of asking is to troll
Please don't bother commenting on things you don't understand, unless, ofc, you're just trying to suck up to theymos.

Regardless of if theymos wants to admit it or not, the forum's BTC most likely legally belongs to theymos.

I think it is somewhat of a moot point to ask where theymos's own money is. Unless of course the point of asking is to troll.....

>What do you mean
I mean click on the pastebin links. From there on, should be self-explanatory.

>Yeah, I believe
A public ledger edited with an eraser? Why not leave the original unaltered?

Can you read properly? All of those apart from theymos's address have the proper amount of Bitcoin or more.
However, 250BTC of that from paraipan is lost since AFAIK he passed away a year or two ago.

What do you mean?

Yeah, I believe a treasurer was removed as he/his wife tried to extort the forum to have a post removed.

Sure they are. Click on the contracts.
The post has also been updated recently, June 11 of this year.

And if splitting among multiple addys, what's the point of posting the addys where the money's not at? Lel?

None of them is empty , only one have less funds is the one that belongs to theymos and I'm pretty sure those funds was used to start funding the new forum software or simply he split them to different addresses in case things goes wrong for one reason or another .

TL;DR: half of the addies are now empty.