Which is the best cold wallet? | Bitcointalksearch.org

xenon131

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Quote from: ranochigo on April 02, 2021, 12:35:05 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Found the cool concept of the cold storage based on ^{the sound wallet}developed by ^{^krach} The developer is active forum user but his original thread is abandoned long time ago so I decided to revive the discussion of his wonderful idea here. With available laser technique the recording of such encrypted sound wallet on a durable plate seems to be the task which is not hard to complete even at home. What do you think?

It is not a cold wallet. It is merely a form of backup.

Steganography is not uncommon. You can obviously do so yourself but putting it on a vinyl disk is probably one of the most terrible ideas; expensive and short life span. I'd rather etch mine on a metal, probably cheaper and more durable by far. I really doubt the general population has a working vinyl disk, not even something that can write on it.

Sorry, I have been very brief so vinyl and stenography was not the stuff I meant. With IR laser you can easily etch even sapphire plate not to mention stainless steel or titanium ones which could hold valuable info (such as SEEDs, private keys etc., related to cold storage) in the form of encrypted sound.

https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/391298/live-encryption-and-decryption-of-audio

"The input is the voice signal that you want to encrypt. You would use the same Key and pseudo random number generator (PRNG) on both sides. At the other end, just repeat the same process, and the exclusive or stage (XOR) will give you your original digitized waveform back."

And too right! That is more cold storage than wallet because it can not control the private keys (SEED), only safely hold them forever.

IR laser, sapphire plate (or titanium at the very least ) , sound encryptor - decryptor, bummo!.

ranochigo

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Found the cool concept of the cold storage based on ^{the sound wallet}developed by ^{^krach} The developer is active forum user but his original thread is abandoned long time ago so I decided to revive the discussion of his wonderful idea here. With available laser technique the recording of such encrypted sound wallet on a durable plate seems to be the task which is not hard to complete even at home. What do you think?

It is not a cold wallet. It is merely a form of backup.

Steganography is not uncommon. You can obviously do so yourself but putting it on a vinyl disk is probably one of the most terrible ideas; expensive and short life span. I'd rather etch mine on a metal, probably cheaper and more durable by far. I really doubt the general population has a working vinyl disk, not even something that can write on it.

bob123

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Quote from: BrewMaster on May 08, 2020, 10:44:27 AM

~snip~

Fixed it, thank you.
I don't know what i was thinking while writing this.

My point was that, considering an online computer as the environment, generating the private key / seed locally on your pc without any unnecessary software (e.g. downloaded website) is generally more secure.
Using the functions included in your OS to generate a private key is less prone to be manipulated than using a website.

Same applies to offline creation.

BrewMaster

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Quote from: bob123 on May 07, 2020, 09:28:01 AM

Paper wallets where the seed is generated online are way more secure than a single private key generated from a downloaded website.

i'm not sure if this is a typo or what but anything that was generated whilst online is considered the least secure thing it doesn't matter if it is a single key or a seed.
it is always best to download the source code like the bitaddress.org website source code from github and run it offline to generate the key.

dkbit98

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I would say that easiest way for having a cold wallet would be hardware wallets.
There are even airgapped hardware wallets that only work with scanning QR codes, and there is no cable or other connection with PC or other devices.

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on April 26, 2020, 04:07:59 PM

we should probably start distinguishing between "traditional paper wallets" where users print out a private key using a popular browser-based software and "paper wallets as seed phrases written down". both should be generated offline but the former is much less secure.

I wouldn't call one of them less secure per se.
Paper wallets where the private key (or seed) is generated on an online computer are generally more secure than private keys (or a seed) generated from a downloaded website. Still, both isn't ideal.

However, a properly generated paper wallet has to be generated completely offline. And preferably without any javascript.
Using the RNG from your OS is one of the best way to generate a paper wallet (regardless whether you want to store a single private key or a mnemonic code). A good and reputable wallet can easily be used to do so (e.g. electrum).

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Quote from: pooya87 on April 25, 2020, 11:29:42 PM

Quote from: mk4 on April 25, 2020, 03:59:57 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on April 24, 2020, 10:40:35 PM

then a paper wallet is a much more suitable option as it isn't affected by data decay and corruption than any digital storage could experience.

I'm going to suggest going with mobile wallets instead of paper wallets to be honest. The private keys are a lot less likely to get leaked with creating a wallet on a mobile phone, and simply writing down the seed in comparison to creating a paper wallet on an unencrypted online home computer in my opinion.

when the "paper wallet" is mentioned it always refers to the correct way of creating it not the wrong way (on an online possibly compromised computer). if you create it correctly offline then nothing can compete with it.

there are lots of ways that paper wallets can lead to losses though---even if generated offline: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Paper_wallet#Paper_wallet_flaws

i wouldn't recommend them. they are not intuitive enough for users.

we should probably start distinguishing between "traditional paper wallets" where users print out a private key using a popular browser-based software and "paper wallets as seed phrases written down". both should be generated offline but the former is much less secure.

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Quote from: vycl87 on April 26, 2020, 07:40:45 AM

There is no mobile "cold" wallet. All mobile wallets can be called a hot wallet.

Not necessarily. Any device which is permanently airgapped is a cold wallet. If you take an old mobile phone and rip out the data transmitting hardware, then that would be a cold wallet. There are some users on this forum which use a cold wallet on an old airgapped phone and a watch only wallet on their main phone, and use QR codes to transmit transactions between the two. It's not a great set up, in my opinion, but it certainly fulfills the criteria of the private keys being airgapped.

Quote from: mk4 on April 25, 2020, 03:59:57 AM

I'm going to suggest going with mobile wallets instead of paper wallets to be honest.

I am never going to choose a mobile wallet over a paper wallet, but that's because I'm confident in my ability to properly set up a paper wallet. As you've said, the majority of users aren't even able to boot to live OS, let alone securely create a paper wallet, and so a paper wallet is not a good recommendation for them. However, I wouldn't be recommending them a mobile wallet either, especially not as a replacement for a paper wallet (i.e. for long term storage of large amounts). If a paper wallet or airgapped set up is too complicated, then the only real alternative option is to buy a hardware wallet.

The Cryptovator

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To be honest, OP need to use a hardware wallet to store bitcoin safely for long time. For this you don't need to use cold wallet, although hardware wallet isn't fully cold wallet but they come into market to solve the cold wallet issue. I will prefer to use Ledger nano as a hardware wallet since I am using it. Cold wallet for them who want to deal with big amount like exchange, gambling sites and web wallet. Why you will need to standby a device just to hold your fund longer since you may solve this issue by using Ledger. I will not prefer for paper wallet ever to use as a cold wallet.

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Quote from: bob123 on April 24, 2020, 06:03:15 AM

But i know what you mean.. I wouldn't call a hardware wallet a cold wallet. But its not a hot wallet either.
IMO that is a mixed form between a hot- and a cold wallet and has its own category.

I agree that this is one category that is not easy to define, but no matter what Ledger uses to isolate private keys within a device, still the same device connects to the internet to communicate with dedicated blockchains. Of course that here we can speculate to what extent secure element is bullet proof, and is this concept "cold wallet inside hot wallet" really provides the same level of security as airgapped devices.

Now imagine the confusion of one beginner who reads that hardware wallet is actually a cold wallet, but this is partly related to the Ledger devices, and not to Trezor and some of his clones. There are definitely some things mixed up, but that doesn't detract from the fact that I would always recommend a hardware wallet to anyone who has serious intentions to invest in crypto.

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Quote from: pooya87 on April 25, 2020, 11:29:42 PM

Quote from: mk4 on April 25, 2020, 03:59:57 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on April 24, 2020, 10:40:35 PM

then a paper wallet is a much more suitable option as it isn't affected by data decay and corruption than any digital storage could experience.

I'm going to suggest going with mobile wallets instead of paper wallets to be honest. The private keys are a lot less likely to get leaked with creating a wallet on a mobile phone, and simply writing down the seed in comparison to creating a paper wallet on an unencrypted online home computer in my opinion.

when the "paper wallet" is mentioned it always refers to the correct way of creating it not the wrong way (on an online possibly compromised computer). if you create it correctly offline then nothing can compete with it. specifically a mobile wallet that has a lot more ways of being leaked.

There is no mobile "cold" wallet. All mobile wallets can be called a hot wallet.
A paper wallet is easy to create and it is completely free. If someone creates a paper wallet with secure way there is no need to be a worry as you said.
But if you can, buying a hardware wallet always can be the best way. Hardware wallets require to spend some money but the safest and comfortable way of holding crypto assets.

pooya87

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Quote from: mk4 on April 25, 2020, 03:59:57 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on April 24, 2020, 10:40:35 PM

then a paper wallet is a much more suitable option as it isn't affected by data decay and corruption than any digital storage could experience.

I'm going to suggest going with mobile wallets instead of paper wallets to be honest. The private keys are a lot less likely to get leaked with creating a wallet on a mobile phone, and simply writing down the seed in comparison to creating a paper wallet on an unencrypted online home computer in my opinion.

when the "paper wallet" is mentioned it always refers to the correct way of creating it not the wrong way (on an online possibly compromised computer). if you create it correctly offline then nothing can compete with it. specifically a mobile wallet that has a lot more ways of being leaked.

mk4

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Quote from: pooya87 on April 24, 2020, 10:40:35 PM

then a paper wallet is a much more suitable option as it isn't affected by data decay and corruption than any digital storage could experience.

I'm going to suggest going with mobile wallets instead of paper wallets to be honest. The private keys are a lot less likely to get leaked with creating a wallet on a mobile phone, and simply writing down the seed in comparison to creating a paper wallet on an unencrypted online home computer in my opinion.

pooya87

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Quote from: HCP on April 24, 2020, 07:29:46 PM

If OP wants to store $10 worth of coins, then a $50 Hardware wallet or even using an air-gapped old laptop is pretty much overkill... conversely, you wouldn't advise them to store $1000 in a wallet like Coinomi on their mobile phone.

apart from amount another factor, which in my opinion may be more important, is how often they want to access their coins. for regular access a hardware wallet is better but if it is for "cold storage" where you just want to store and forget about for a long time like years, then a paper wallet is a much more suitable option as it isn't affected by data decay and corruption than any digital storage could experience.

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Quote from: Pmalek on April 24, 2020, 08:19:01 AM

Everyone needs to weigh up his options and decide for himself if he is going to lean more towards usability or better security.

Pretty much this...

Without a proper explanation of the OPs "wants" and "needs"... it is pretty much impossible to answer their question in a meaningful way. There is no "one wallet to rule them all".

If OP wants to store $10 worth of coins, then a $50 Hardware wallet or even using an air-gapped old laptop is pretty much overkill... conversely, you wouldn't advise them to store $1000 in a wallet like Coinomi on their mobile phone.

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Hardware wallets offer the best combination of convenience and security. An airgapped computer and properly generated paper wallet are the best security-wise, but they are not as easy to use as a Ledger wallet. Everyone needs to weigh up his options and decide for himself if he is going to lean more towards usability or better security.

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Quote from: Lucius on April 24, 2020, 04:53:52 AM

Consequently, any hardware wallet that comes into contact with the Internet can no longer be considered cold wallet. The only correct way is an airgapped device that houses the main wallet with its own private keys that allow you to create a transaction, and an online device that will broadcast those transactions.

The keys don't get exposed though, which is the main goal in the first place. The hardware device itself(Nano S/X) is just there to sign the transactions in the first place, through the software(Ledger Live/Electrum).

And yea, airgapped would probably be the best option, but it's really not something I'd suggest outside Bitcointalk. Most people don't even know how to use a Linux OS.

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Quote from: mk4 on April 24, 2020, 12:35:53 AM

probably grab a Ledger hardware wallet[2].

That was my first idea here. I've never stored crypto on paper wallets or really any other type of cold storage, but the Ledger fulfills basically all the same functions--and it's practical if you want to mobilize the coins eventually. And as we Leger owners know, you can store a ton of altcoins on it and keep them safe as long as the seed phrase is in a secure location (and that's something you have to worry about no matter how you do your cold storage).

Quote from: Pmalek on April 24, 2020, 07:30:05 AM

Jaxx has many issues and is not safe to use. Just search about it on the forum. The team behind Atomic Wallet have been accused of being the same as for some other services that are periodically scamming people.

Ugh. I wouldn't use Jaxx or any other of those kinds of wallets. I really think a hardware wallet is the best way to go.

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Quote from: Pmalek on April 24, 2020, 07:30:05 AM

Quote from: Cratoon on April 24, 2020, 05:23:26 AM

I've been using Atomic for the last 3 years with no issues.

I have been using Jaxx and some others before, but I like Atomic the best as it seems the most reliable, updated and feature rich.

Those are multi-currency software wallets. They are not cold storage options. A software wallet goes online, hence it's not "cold".

Jaxx has many issues and is not safe to use. Just search about it on the forum. The team behind Atomic Wallet have been accused of being the same as for some other services that are periodically scamming people.

Oh really? I had no idea. Gotta make some additional research to ensure the safety of funds

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Quote from: Cratoon on April 24, 2020, 05:23:26 AM

I've been using Atomic for the last 3 years with no issues.

I have been using Jaxx and some others before, but I like Atomic the best as it seems the most reliable, updated and feature rich.

Those are multi-currency software wallets. They are not cold storage options. A software wallet goes online, hence it's not "cold".

Jaxx has many issues and is not safe to use. Just search about it on the forum. The team behind Atomic Wallet have been accused of being the same as for some other services that are periodically scamming people.

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Quote from: bob123 on April 24, 2020, 06:03:15 AM

@OP
What kind of cold wallet do you want? How frequently do you transact?
Do you want the private keys to be stored on an offline computer? Or is a paper wallet a better option for you?

I think that if the OP is asking for information about which wallet should him use, he is not experienced enough to make a proper paper wallet.

There are so many reports of users losing their funds because they didn't make a paper wallet properly.

The best wallets for newbies and intermediate users is a hardware wallet, in my opinion.

I will suggest Ledger Nano or Trezor. They are the best hardware wallets out there and both are pretty safe.
You will not lose your funds and you will spend less than 100 usd. Instructions are pretty straight forward.

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Quote from: Lucius on April 24, 2020, 04:53:52 AM

Quote from: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage

Cold storage in the context of Bitcoin refers to storing Bitcoins offline and spending without the private keys controlling them ever being online. This resists theft by hackers and malware, and is often a necessary security precaution especially dealing with large amounts of Bitcoin.

Consequently, any hardware wallet that comes into contact with the Internet can no longer be considered cold wallet.

According to your definition, a hardware wallet IS a cold wallet.
The private keys never touch an online device. They are isolated in a secure element (speaking about ledger). The MCU gets in touch with an online device. This theoretically makes a ledger nano a cold wallet, but not a trezor.

But i know what you mean.. I wouldn't call a hardware wallet a cold wallet. But its not a hot wallet either.
IMO that is a mixed form between a hot- and a cold wallet and has its own category.

@OP
What kind of cold wallet do you want? How frequently do you transact?
Do you want the private keys to be stored on an offline computer? Or is a paper wallet a better option for you?

Those are questions you have to answer for yourself.

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Quote from: RohanNRam on April 24, 2020, 12:27:38 AM

Which is the best cold wallet?

I've been using Atomic for the last 3 years with no issues.

I have been using Jaxx and some others before, but I like Atomic the best as it seems the most reliable, updated and feature rich.

Lucius

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We should not mix the term "cold wallet" with hardware wallets, as such devices do not fall into this category if used in the normal way. By definition, cold wallet is :

Quote from: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage

Cold storage in the context of Bitcoin refers to storing Bitcoins offline and spending without the private keys controlling them ever being online. This resists theft by hackers and malware, and is often a necessary security precaution especially dealing with large amounts of Bitcoin.

Consequently, any hardware wallet that comes into contact with the Internet can no longer be considered cold wallet. The only correct way is an airgapped device that houses the main wallet with its own private keys that allow you to create a transaction, and an online device that will broadcast those transactions.

As with any wallet, the weak point is of course seed/private key backup, which should be properly protected. Because even the best made cold storage does not have any purpose if the backup is saved in email, cloud or plain text on your computer.

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OP, it depends on your computer skills. If you can safely generate a paper wallet, that's the cheapest. Also if the idea is to store for long period of time, cryptosteel can be an option.
If you want to spend now and then or the computer skills are not so much reliable, go for hardware wallet - Ledger and Trezor are the typical options. (make sure you write down the seed onto a PAPER, not a FILE).

mk4

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If you don't want to spend some money, you can create a wallet on an air-gapped device[1]. If you don't want to do too much technical stuff though, and you just want things to be easy, probably grab a Ledger hardware wallet[2].

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/guide-secure-air-gapped-crypto-wallet-storage-method-2828437
[2] https://ledger.com/

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I have some bitcoin and I wanted to store it in a cold wallet as it is much safer. There are many cold wallets but I don't know which one to use. Please suggest the best cold wallet giving safety the main importance.

Topic: Which is the best cold wallet? (Read 487 times)