Topic: why all the hate for the welfare state? (Read 3864 times)

Ah, that explains the instant disliking I took to you.  How many alts do you have?  I'm guessing you need a new one every time people get sick of your incessant batshit mental posting and stick you on their ignore list.

*Disclaimer* This is an AnonyMint / TheFascistMind / UnunoctiumTesticles / contagion thread likely to contain unrealistic and purely hypothetical scenarios that may be closer to fiction than any semblance of reality, along with false logic and copious amounts of clutching at straws.

I know he didn't actually start the thread, but it just feels that way since his monstrous ego takes over everything.

Following the abolition of the state, money, and private property, one does not need to be “granted” access to goods in order to utilize them—one may merely proceed to do so.

Idiot without a fungible currency there is no trade and no maximum-division-of-labor, thus economic collapse same as with communism.

You are going on my ignore list.

Even the longest journeys (taken on foot) begin with a single step.

40% for all Social Security as I linked to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Social_Security_Contributions


The optimum solution is smaller community governments that do local welfare, as I explained with a photo here:

ha, that one was good. but i doubt we will see that in the short to mid term.
or rather it is a very futuristic idea.

If the state, money, and private property were abolished, the obstructions they pose to the acquisition of life-sustaining goods would be abolished as well.

@average income tax

i understand your point, i will try to look for more precise numbers.

@pension insurance.

its 20% together, so 10% the employee, 10% the employer (social tax is always half/half)
but you are correct that it is mandatory (nobody can say no to pension insurance, except you have no income of course)


@welfare state

imho it is just about the balancing.
there is only one solution for the people that can't live for themself in our society (because of physical or mental illness).
welfare or euthanasia.

if there is another solution please help me understand.

Average taxation is a meaningless concept because it includes the welfare recipients who leech on the economy. I analyzed the middleclass who produce the GDP. Germany is strangling them with high taxes that average > 50% in total.

Additionally the Euro was a subsidy to German exports at the expense of the rest of Europe, which is thus now bankrupted. But German banks are radically leveraged to the rest of Europe.

Germany (and Europe and Japan) will collapse this year. QE won't work again, because globally the marginal-utility-of-debt has gone negative. BOHICA. Enjoy.

Btw, I have one German grandparent, one UK, and one French. The 4th one is native American.


So the 20% is mandatory one way or the other? And make that 40% because apparently the employer pays a matching share (which comes out of salaries whether you like to admit it or not, because profit is a zero-sum game).

The western governments will end up confiscating (nationalizing) all the private pension funds, because the societies are bankrupt.

Westerners will lose their pensions. Massive rationing of health care.

The grand liberal, socialism experiment is massive, FUBAR Tragedy of the Commons failure. Megadeath likely coming 2019ish.

this is from 2007:

http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1768/umfrage/durchschnittlicher-einkommensteuersatz-pro-steuerpflichtigem-nach-bundeslaendern/

the average income tax was less then 20%.

what your posted from wikipedia is indeed correct, but it just explains the tax bracket of our income tax law.


@social taxation

its only 20% if you take your pension insurance into it. you are free to to care yourself about a future pension.
it is just law because we in germany dont want to care of people that dont do something for their pension before they get old and cant work.
that is why either you have to pay in a state controlled pension fund as a tax or pay into a private owned pension fund.

@vat

i explained earlier there are two tax brackets for vat, one is 7% and the other is 19%.
guess what 19% are? right, luxury articles.


-----------------

why are you mad anonymint?
82%... come on.... and that without vat...

and where did i tell you that you have a derangend mind?

and btw. im not socialist, im pretty liberal.

I don't need to verify BitcoinFreak12's source because I know for a fact that actual taxation rates for the middle class in Western nations exceed 50%, especially in Europe.


Looks like the middle class pay 42% just in income taxes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Income_tax_rate_in_2010

Social security adds another 20% plus the employer pays 20% (which is the same as the worker is paying because it is taken from cost of employees and thus salaries are lower by 20%):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Social_Security_Contributions

So that is 82% tax.

Then you can add the 19% VAT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#Tax_rate

STOP YOUR BULLSHIT. SOCIALIST PIGS!

Btw, Germany will totally collapse into a heaping pile of rubble in 2015 - 2016. I am going to be laughing at you socialist pigs.

You are the one with the deranged mind.

Forced compliance, of any sort, with any hierarchical social group constitutes tyranny.

this is his source :

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/personal-income-tax-rate


he just took the the maximum possible income tax rate.



@anonymint

i though you atleast would check the source...

also i agree with your other statement that there of course exist more then the income tax.
but the most important are vat and healthcare/social taxation.

vat in germany is either 7 or 19% depending on what you buy.
in germany there exist social taxation which includes everything like healthcare and so on which equals to around 15%, but you only pay 50% of it. (one part the employee, the other part the employer)

its still alot from the 47,5%....


/edit

that i said you should seek help was not meant as a offense.
from what you said i dont think you are healthy...

Socialist pigs can't read.


Socialist pigs love Josef Mengele.


P.S. I was AnonyMint, I am not a newbie.

The “welfare” of “the welfare state” conceals statism's detriments without genuinely mitigating them (i.e., abolishing the state, money, and private property).

the tax list contaigon quoted was bullshit, average taxation of 47,5% in germany?  

by chance im living in germany for a long long time now and the max income tax is 45% tax if you earn 250,000+ € per year my friend.
its definitely not the average taxation of a worker in germany.

the average income tax a german has to pay is around 20%

/edit

its really weird that i see nowhere else so much newbie accounts posting... not even the altcoin section has so much newbies keep spreading lies



you should seek help in form of a medical and psychological treatment instead of blaming welfare on bitcointalk.org
if you even live in a land that provides welfare, this is the perfect moment to take use of it.

Hey idiot, you still didn't get the point.

Most reasonable people are not against paying say 19% taxes to help the most indigent. But everyone is against paying 100%. The problem is a commons can never stay at 19%, because of the game theory of the Tragedy of the Commons. This is fundamental and very easy for someone with 120+ IQ to understand. You are lacking in IQ.

The antithesis of capitalism is communism. In communism, everyone owns 100%. This is a Tragedy of the Commons and thus communism is an abject failure because everyone wants to leech off the commons.

Collectivism is a commons. It isn't capitalism (which is not a commons) which is causing the leeching.

For example, the banksters keep buying off the politicians and regulators so they can go gamble with fractional reserves and derivatives, then they force the government to bail them out, putting the $trillion bailouts cost on the commons. It is the existence of a commons which provides the capital resource to fund this corruption. If there was no commons taxation, then the banksters would have no resource to expropriate. The Tragedy of the Commons is the problem, dimwit. There is no way to have a commons for welfare without also making the commons available to the banksters. You say regulate the banksters? But they can buy off the regulators, because the commons provides this huge resource to fund their bribes. You see everyone is leeching off the commons. Where there is honey (the commons), the flies will congregate.

Don't make me teach this to you again. Idiot!

You carry on with your brain dead thinking. It will serve you very well in the global collapse which will take all of your wealth starting in 2016. Then you can learn what a Tragedy of the Commons really is. I guess all the way to your grave in the coming Nazi concentration camps you will still be thinking capitalism murdered you.

http://www.stonemarmot.com/rantrave/rantscap.html


http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/03/11/marxism-is-a-dead-idea-but-capitalism-freedom-has-never-truly-existed/

On the other hand, often the smart people - those smart enough to get rich - recognize that it is through giving as well as taking that one truly becomes wealthy. And this not only in personal philosophy, but also in the riches of the world.

Those who enslave you make you their enemy. Why? Because everybody wants freedom. Those who maintain your freedom, and help it to be maintained for you when you are weak, are the ones you would be more likely to revere.

Smart wealthy people maintain fairness and a giving attitude in all their dealings. Super-smart wealthy do this while keeping idiots from wrecking their lives through foolishness... and they do it without the foolish even realizing that it is being done to them. The few "ultra-smart" people that there are, are the ones who have become wealthy, and then given it all away. They don't even have the pressures that wealth so often brings.

Now, take a look at the people in authority. Compare them with the previous paragraph.

I, on the other hand, would simply show you how to get rid of the welfare state out of your life. You do it by filling yourself up on the info here http://1215.org/, and by learning all the practical application information from Karl Lentz that you can - http://www.myprivateaudio.com/Karl-Lentz.html.

Contagion just can't face that fact that corruption can and does exist in capitalism.  Good thing he has no say on how the world works.  It would be a pretty bleak place if it only rewarded people who want to take, take, take their whole lives without giving anything back because they think taxation is somehow tantamount to theft.  Not much point in arguing further, since it's obvious he's not going to budge from his view.

I've never begrudged paying tax and I never will.  If you want to live in a world without public services and welfare, kindly go live in a cave on some remote island somewhere.  You can take as much as you want, but you'll find that won't be much when there's no one else to take from.  Greed is such a primitive emotion.  I'd have thought the world would be a little more enlightened by this point.

DooMAD doesn't have the intellectual capacity to understand the point I made. Collectivized systems have always been and will always be corrupt. 6000 years of history says that is the normal and only mode — there are no exceptions. There is no possible way to do collectivized welfare that isn't tied into the overall corruption of collectivism. And this corruption of collectivism has no corrective feedback loop. The corruption only ends when the cancer has destroyed the host. Rinse. Reset. Repeat.


You are also not a student of history and reality. When the deflationary collapse ensues 2016 - 2024, the State murders the citizens. There is always a cost to be paid for that misallocation of resources. No one walks away unscathed, including yourself.

---

All this whining about the poor makes me want to puke, given the poor today have higher standard of living than Kings of yore.

12 yr. old girl allowed to die by mother's mercy

This story makes me feel so lucky to have the life I have in spite of my battle with neuropathy, HPV, blinded in one eye, financial troubles, career troubles, etc..

All the probably near constant pain this little girl had to endure with no hope, yet there is one pic of her smile.

http://www.kidspot.com.au/a-little-girl-allowed-to-die/

Maybe that is a good reflection for all of us on how blessed we are.

Actually, the welfare state is good right now. Why? Because the fiat currencies of the world are going to collapse the whole thing anyway, if only by the implosion of their bubbles.

The welfare state is good right now, because it invites many little people to get onto welfare. If the little people are smart, they will use whatever welfare they get to buy things like land, gold, silver, and Bitcoin. Then, once they are set, who cares if the fiats crash the world.

The problem is, most of the little people on welfare won't understand this, and will never prepare. But for those of us who have a little foresight, we have the chance to prepare using the welfare state funds that we can get.

Bottom line is this, socialism in it's most extremist form is bad, as is extremism in all it's guises.  There's a balance to be struck, I'll meet you half way there.  But there needs to be a safety net when the system is designed to transfer money from the bottom to the top.  We both appear to agree that that's where the money flows.  You seem to be of the impression that it's entirely the fault of government, but that simply isn't the case.  I'll concede there are numerous problems with our current form of governance, mostly surrounding things like lobbying, which I think you'll find capitalists are quite fond of.  Despite all the noble mantra about true capitalism being a level playing field, at the first chance they get they want to change the law to suit their particular business model to gain an unfair advantage over the competition.  The money flows to the top and everyone else gets left behind.  Capitalism isn't capitalism.  That's the problem, so stop blaming welfare and taxation.

The salient point flew right over those loose rocks inside your cranium, that collectivized systems don't converge (i.e. don't optimize, a.k.a. no feedback loop stabilization) and instead diverge to megadeath every damn time over and over throughout history since Mesopotamia. Non-convergence has nothing to do with the specific examples of tax levels at any given stage of the divergence of collectivism along the way to its repeating horrific end game.

Even your feeble attempt at an obfuscatory rebuttal is factually incorrect. The insane tax levels I linked to (which exceed 19.5% limit of Hauser's Law) apply to the average worker in the nations of the world.


I have a very serious health problem of an incurable HPV virus that after 8 years has led to a worsening and debilitating neuropathy and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, with high probability of throat or head cancer. And I don't rely on any health insurance whatsoever, nor do I receive any welfare whatsoever. Nor am I wealthy any more, and I have to work to support myself while also being blind in one eye since 1999 and approaching 50 years of age.

Go whine to your mother you immature useless blob.

Perhaps you are one of those many foreigners over here in the Philippines who are living on fraudulent disability welfare.


Even I have no income lately and my savings is dwindling, I do still help the poor.

When your fucking government is done stealing and pilfering all the resources of the world, there will be nothing left to give to the poor. That is why socialism results in megadeath every damn time. But you are not a student of history.

The "stealing for the poor" can not be orthogonal to the "stealing for the banksters, perpetual wars, ...". Until you understand that IRON LAW, then you will continue your nonsense thinking.


Why don't you understand that the "1%" is the middle class? It is all a lie. The fact is the middle class is being destroyed and society is again headed towards the usual megadeath.


Learn how to separate propaganda from reality.

In the meatime, you and this other propagandist have the same context...

Post boils down to "I can list some extreme examples of taxation which in my backwards brain proves that all taxation is bad".  Shut up and pay your taxes, neo-lib.  Better yet, develop a serious health condition which leaves you unable to do your job and then let's see you bitch about welfare.  I'm guessing your world view basically equates to "fuck the poor".  


So we should keep making sure that all the money ends up in the hands of those who already have the most?  The insane thing to do is to carry on down that path and keep concentrating wealth in the hands of those who aren't spending it back into the economy.  

People don't spend money -> economy stagnates -> greater inequality -> people spend even less money -> cycle continues and worsens.

Learn basic numeracy, please.

Jealously stole your intellect.


Hey INSANE socialist pig idiot, GET A FUCKING CLUE:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9975573

Here is a small excerpt:


Make sure you understand the IRON LAW of Political Economics (a.k.a. of Resource Statism).

Dependence (and welfare and pension dependents on the State) on the top-down does not optimize, rather it devolves every damn time since Mesopotamia. The definition of insanity is doing the same damn thing over and over again and expecting a different result (or continuing to make excuses and be in denial about the generative essence of the outcome).

while a safety net is just and moral, most welfare states are poor;y designed and subsidise the lazy at the expense of the productive

Can't tell if the sarcasm was lost in my post somehow.  I don't think there's a single cause and even if there was it definitely isn't welfare.  There are likely dozens of causes, but lately all the scaremongering and scapegoating is on things like welfare and immigration and I'm sick of hearing it.  

This predicts a single cause for a single huge event.

All the other causes will be very unhappy that they were not invited to the party.

Why are you so mean?

Bitcoin will not be useless if you can still store it yourself but banks are involved too.

I don't disagree. But the thing that you are really saying is that people will wind up giving their information to the banks anyway. That means that Bitcoin will become almost useless, except for the reduced fee aspect in some cases. People don't understand the potential of what they have in Bitcoin.

I think the banks can integrate bitcoins rather than Bitcoin will make them all fail. They are facilitators, market makers and liquidity providers, their skills may still be needed but we can expect not to have the same system of big banks linked to the government in a new free world.

As money buys less and less these days, even so it is money that is losing its value, not the commodities it buys. That's why there is value in Bitcoin. The drop in money value will continue untill it is destroyed.

Money is good to have as a method for making trading easy. We need Bitcoin so that the trading can't be easily controlled by some central authority like the banks. At this stage of the game, even if Bitcoin were controlled, the banks need some viable competition to bring prices down. On the other hand, maybe we should simply let the banks fail altogether.

Financial regulation is regulation made for the banks and good for big banks but bad for the clients and for competition.

The welfare state is giving more and more but the state has to go into debt to give. It is crazy and unsustainable.

Because clearly that's the root cause of all your economic problems.  When the collapse comes, it definitely has nothing to do with inequality, military spending, foreign policy, financial deregulation, market manipulations and corrupt banks.  It was just welfare that ruined everything.  //EDIT:     (adding rolleyes for clarity in case sarcasm wasn't obvious)

When did the world get so gormless?  

From near the end of the movie Sahara:

Dirk: Hey, Al?

Al: Yeah.

Dirk: What would you do if you were about to be exposed as the worst polluter of modern times?

Al: I dunno. Run for President?

----------

I mean, how did Obama win? He promised, then gave, the biggest welfare state ever. We recipients like it now, but when it collapses, things will be worse than a toxic waste plant meltdown. Just a little nudge more, and Chicago will look like Detroit.

Rich people want to swim in money like Scrooge McDuck and they can't do that if they have to pay tax, therefore welfare is evil.  

The war on welfare is yet another symptom of neo-classical numerical illiteracy.  They don't understand the simple fact that people with low or no incomes will need to spend their money back into the economy out of necessity.  They're not collecting money to sit in a savings account.  They buy food, clothing and keep a roof over their heads and there's little else they can afford.  Unlike the wealthy who are sitting on piles of money in the bank, which does nothing for the economy except benefit the finance sector.  The only people against welfare are the ones who begrudge having money they're not actually using being forced back into circulation through taxation.  These are the same people against concepts like the living wage.  

Simple logic, 10 million people can spend 1 dollar faster than one person can spend 10 million dollars.  I bet in the short time it took me to write this, more than 10 million people somewhere in the world have just spent a dollar back into their respective economies.  The more multi-millionaires our broken system creates, hoarding their wealth, the faster it all crashes and burns.  The only thing you achieve by creating more poor people is a faster slide into depression.  Prosperity only works if you don't leave people behind.  Stop being financially illiterate.

Welfare state positively discriminates all kinds of benefit claimer scum, and punishing its own taxpayers.

When you tax something, you are going to war against it. They tax wealth and labor when they should tax not working

Providing basic amenities is considered okay.
The problem with "Welfare states" seems to be that they are rewarding laziness.

One of the problem is it's not forever, it's for how long the system will take to collapse

welfare was a great idea when the unemployed could claim benefits for a few weeks in between jobs but now we have entire families of mainly ethnic minorities where no one has ever had a job and get their rent and everything paid forever, or providing for pensioners when life expectancy was 65 - 70 but now someone born today has a 1 in 3 chance of living until 100 meaning they can expect to live half their lives as a dependent, the cost of supporting these people has ballooned out of control and is unsustainable

The welfare state is creating poor people. People try to make the best choices for them, obviously someone registering for welfare instead of working is not doing the best choice long term but if the rules were not here, nobody would think of not working.

John Stossel - The Wasted War On Poverty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owmgEITaIWw

wow!

Welfare is grand! Or at least it should be. I think it's actually more like ~$600 monthly for a single adult, plus you have to do job search stuff, unless you can get a doctor to help you fake a disability.
There's people who actually need welfare but thanks to all the geniuses who abused the system for the free money, the tit seems to have largely gone dry.
I don't hate the welfare state, I just hate poor people.

Because taking other peoples money from hardworking citizens to people that you may disagree with their lifestyle and to be forced to support their lifestyle or go to jail is extortion.

Broadly speaking, this is true. What we have today, even the whole welfare state, comes about because people (for whatever reason) exercise certain aspects of the free market, but not others that they could.

I think you need to come back here when you have that neomarxism sorry Zeitgeist out of your system. Been where you are today in the past. You need to learn that Free-market= no coercion. the Zeitgeist is a tempting way to explain the world and wraps up a lot of truth in the mix of it's false logic.

Welfare states as a generalization are prevalent in nations that have undergone significant advances in technology and industry, they are not the cause for the increase in standards of living they are the result of the Free-market creating prosperity that people cynically sorry compassionately redistribute to the bitter end.

I don't actually believe anarchy is even realistic for the next century, but I do believe that redistribution is evil and should be questioned.

If there is no scamming or stealing at grand level, e.g. central banks or communist government taking over of majority of the resources, world will be better

Teen bitcointalk -------->

A anarchic society cannot exist for the state is an extention of the free market. They are two sides of the same coin. State social programs are prevalent in nations where public health is in order and there is less crime

Bitcoin will illuminate illuminati all the way to the bank, central bank that is

I like it!
Then blockchain becomes our DNA.
Every peer has a full copy of the whole, that's what "created in the image of God" actually means!
Bitcoin is then a reflection of holographic nature of existence. Proof of World system, anyone?
My signature only supports the point

Somewhere someone stated that you could fit all the people in the world on the Isle of Man. The Isle of man has about 220 square miles of land - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_the_Isle_of_Man. The world has about 57,510,000 square miles of land - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area.

The amount of land that  is out there is great. Let the people go. Get rid of the governments. The people can take care of their governmenting locally, in small groups.

That's right. And to state it further, the only way a government or state works fairly and equitably is when it is written down. This way everyone can look to see if what is being done compares with what is written. The state is a state of mind.

In your body, the government is written down in your genetic code. Your immune system attempts to maintain correct operation in the state of your body.

There isn't any equality. Even identical twins are not equal. Everyone is at least a little different from everyone else. Now think about this that I am going to say. Here it is. "Since everyone is different than everyone else, we are all equal in the sense that we are all different from everyone else." We are all the same in the fact that we are all people. We are all different in almost everything else.

Why should someone get results of the labor of someone else when that labor is taken by force? That's what the welfare state does. And while they are doing it, they, the welfare state people, help themselves to an extra share of the property that they claim to be doling out, even though they don't deserve it.

People don't need the welfare state. They don't need government at all. After all, government and welfare state are made up of people. Most of the time those people simply skim off the top. Since the people are still people without the welfare state or any other government, they can live even better without government and the welfare state leaching off them.

If you as an individual were a state, wouldn't you like to be well and fair?
I will tell you something, your body is a state - a pinnacle of collaboration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELEwjVRxxGE

...
[/quote]

You are referring to history as if times haven't changed. If pure capitalism was in order back then, things might have turned out worse. The times have changed and we have movements such as the zeitgeist movement that recognizes that technological unemployment and technological improvements has instilled leeway for such balance of income disparities such as some sort of automated income generation to fill in the gaps and provide greater balance to our ecosystem

back too welfare, technological unemployment would cause for a rise in some universal welfare state. where scarcity is evenly distributed among everyone regardless of where they are. we are not separate from nature and with great automation technology, it would make sense   that rational distribution of the wealth is essential to the integrity of the society. without a strong universal basic income we will see greater crime, our prisons and psych wards filled and more problems then is needed

It's about equality. Welfare instills it to some extent. captalism preserves scarcity and in it's natural state is imbalance. are you making the argument that the 99% is greedy? kind of ironic

Big government is inevitable when the people are disarmed, or when the people are ignorant of the dangers of big government.

What does the greedy or lucky 1% have to do with the fact that people are generally compassionate? The world's population is estimated at 7.4 billion. One percent of that is 74 million. That's only about 22.5 % of the U.S. population. So, what do the greedy have to do with the compassionate? Here's what. The greedy who happen to have pets, or ranches, or horses, etc., often have a great deal of compassion for their animals. And they would for the world of people as well, if they thought the 99% of the world that isn't wealthy weren't a bunch of greedy b******s who love to sit on their behinds doing nothing except milk the welfare system.

isn't big government an inevitable result of technological advancement?  as technology increases so does technological unemployment. i see a future when we are all government stipends. srs

maybe its up to the 1% to help fund a universal basic income to instill equality and maintain the integrity of the society

As the government and taxes grow bigger, the inequality grows bigger to the point where we are now where some have a lot and no risk of losing it in the current state of affair while other have not chance of making it. So big government and big taxes are increasing inequality and hurting the poor.

If people were paying less taxes, they would have more money to give away and would give away more

i found other numbers ranging from 45-55%

a nice read too:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2014/01/23/the-85-richest-people-in-the-world-have-as-much-wealth-as-the-3-5-billion-poorest/

Because of the welfare State[1][2].

---

You want to steal that because you are filled with jealousy. That is why you get always more of the same result over and over since Mesopotamia 6000 B.C..

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/goldismoney/biblemoney.html

you say people are compassionate? then why is 40% of the worlds wealth dominated by the 1%

Taxes are helping the rich because they hurt the weak more. If you want to help someone start by not taking away most its income. Most of the taxes are wasted anyway.

Stick a fork in socialism (welfare States) and the global economy. The fat lady has sung, and we await the collapse into a chaotic economic abyss of megadeath and destruction. Thank you welfare State! This is a great gift to humanity. It has only happened over and over again without fail since Mesopotamia 6000 B.C., yet humans continue to do the same exact social organization (tax and redistribute) over and over expecting a different outcome. That is the definition of INSANITY.


Yes very much[1]. This will be evident in 2016 when Germany's economy collapses.

[1]

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9707650 https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9884798 http://suvysthoughts.blogspot.com/2014/08/europes-conundrum.html http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/18/german-politicians-promise-unfunded-pensions-just-to-win/ http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/08/22/the-european-debt-bomb-unbelievable/ http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/10/14/will-2015-break-germany/ http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/07/10/german-municipals-in-trouble/ http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/05/12/german-municipalities-in-crisis/

The best welfare system does not employ coercion and allows a free market of individuals to help other individuals on their own free will. Once you need to use coercion (e.g. collective taxation), then you turn over control to corruption[1][2]. This is an IRON LAW that can't be avoided[2].

[2] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9939279


There is no resource scarcity[3]. The only scarcity is due to the corruption that impedes the free market (and rewards misallocation of priorities and motivation with debt and welfare).

Germany has the best welfare system in the world or is on par with it.

Is germany broken?

I dont think most of you have problems with welfare itself just how taxation and distribution works

Workers don't like their property - their labor that is converted into money - stolen from them. That's what the welfare state does.

The idea of helping the poor, or supporting those who are disabled, is noble. The idea of organizing a welfare state so that the organizers can steal some of the money for themselves even though they give other money to the poor, is criminal.

People are generally compassionate. They will help others who are in need. For those who are in need but haven't been reached by the compassionate, let the organizers request donations rather than creating a welfare state. Some people will always donate.

Removal of the welfare state will get the welfare recipients who don't really need welfare, up off their behinds, and out there working for a living. All the rest of us will get to keep more of what we work for. We will spend some of it on things that we want and need. More jobs will be created. Prosperity will abound.

The welfare state is destroying us.

In theory there isn't actually too much wrong with the welfare state, more often than not though the instead of taxing the rich like the politicians love to talk about all the time, they're actually taxing the fuck out of the middle class and making the gap between the rich and poor even larger. Even if you fixed hyperinflation and brought back precious metals as currency this problem still wouldn't be fixed because the governments don't want to tax their rich donors.

:Sigh:    [1]

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/contagion-402246

I think its a necessary evil to instill some form of equality while controlling scarcity through taxation and maintaining the public health of the society. more equal nations have better public health and less crime.

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