why are mining fees not refunded | Bitcointalksearch.org

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: Benedictare on March 27, 2024, 02:18:53 PM

Mining fees are not refunded because when you are cancelling your transaction you must have a higher fees to make sure that your it will be added in the next block.

The replacement transaction which is made for cancelling the original transaction doesn't have to be included in the next block.
As already said, you can replace your transaction with a one and wait until it's confirmed.

Quote from: Benedictare on March 27, 2024, 02:18:53 PM

Immediately you send your transaction,It has validated your Bitcoin withdrawal on the block chain,and so when you cancel it, that process can't be reversed on the Blockchain, remember Blockchain can't be altered .

Again wrong.
An unconfirmed transaction doesn't exist in the blockchain at all. If a transaction is in the blockchain, it has been confirmed and it can no longer replaced.

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Mining fees are not refunded because when you are cancelling your transaction you must have a higher fees to make sure that your it will be added in the next block.

Immediately you send your transaction,It has validated your Bitcoin withdrawal on the block chain,and so when you cancel it, that process can't be reversed on the Blockchain, remember Blockchain can't be altered .

For example,when making transaction in your traditional banking and you are transferring from one bank to another and due to network, your transaction got hand , remember that your transaction fee has been added,when it is being reversed,it doesn't come back with the fee.

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Quote from: nakamura12 on March 24, 2024, 03:17:54 PM

It id because your transaction is still on the mempool unconfirmed.

You didn't understand OP correctly.
OP cancelled the unconfirmed transaction and that means that he replaced the unconfirmed transaction with a new one paying higher fee. OP paid the fee for the replacement transaction.

Quote from: nakamura12 on March 24, 2024, 03:17:54 PM

If RBF is not enabled then I think CPFP should be the other ways get it confirmed.

You can't do CPFP, if you don't have control over any of outputs.

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It id because your transaction is still on the mempool unconfirmed.

Quote from: Yamane_Keto on March 23, 2024, 10:18:07 AM

Quote from: Doan9269 on March 23, 2024, 07:14:05 AM

you cant imagine that it cost 4 USD for instance to cancel a transaction and 1 USD to pump it, which is more preferable, then i realized that the transaction was not sent initially, therefore, no transaction sent and confirmed can be cancelled.

Canceling a transaction always requires higher fees than pumping it.

In canceling a transaction, you change the output transactions to one of your wallet addresses, and you need to guarantee that the new transaction will be included in the next block to cancel the old transaction. Therefore, the fees must be higher than the previous transaction, while in the case of pumping old transaction. It does not matter whether the transaction is confirmed before or after pumping.

When replacing a transaction it doesn't have to be changing wallet address or using the same wallet address that you sent the coin but paying high fee will do the trick for the transaction to get included in the blockchain. There is a chance that it won't be included in the next block if the transaction fee isn't high enough. A transaction can't be cancelled as long as it is not purged from the mempool or not replaced by a new one. (I may be wrong and you are welcome to correct me).

Quote from: hosseinimr93 on March 24, 2024, 09:57:10 AM

Right. I would also do so, if the original transaction has not been flagged as RBF and I want to increase the chance of the second transaction being confirmed.
I don't have access to any data, but I don't think nodes that have not enabled full RBF yet are rare.

If RBF is not enabled then I think CPFP should be the other ways get it confirmed.

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Quote from: Findingnemo on March 24, 2024, 11:52:41 AM

If you want your replacement transaction confirmed in the next block, you can pay a high fee rate so that it will be included in the next block, but that's not required if you are not in a hurry.
You can replace the original transaction with a new one and wait until the replacement transaction is confirmed.

It's possible that a node has the first transaction in its mempool and another node has the second transaction.
I doubt there's any node that keep both transactions in its mempool.

If the transaction has been flagged as RBF and the fee paid for the second transaction is high enough, nodes would remove the first transaction and put the second one in their mempool. So, it's true to say that the first transaction is replaced by the second one.

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Quote from: Findingnemo on March 24, 2024, 11:52:41 AM

If I am not wrong, when we do RBF or cancellation as OP requested we are not going to replace the transactions, we only create new transaction that means both the transactions will be present in the pool and one with higher fee will be confirmed and the remaining one will be removed by the nodes. Am I wrong here?

The transaction is replaced by the new transaction. That is the reason it is called double spending. If you check the old transaction that is replaced on explorers, it will be invalid.

Quote from: Faisal2202 on March 24, 2024, 12:08:45 PM

So you are saying we can make transactions without paying the TX fee? or I am imagining! haha. Well if I am not then this information is new to me, I don't run any full client wallet like it, only using SPVs. hmm, if we can really make tx without paying fees using full clients then how miners and validators are going to make money? I mean this changes the whole thing/POV for me Wink

The bitcoin transaction fee is in a way that people have to pay as the fee rate determines the amount of coins to be paid. But if you are one of the people that own a mining pool, you can include zero fee transaction as part of the transactions to be mined in a block and if you mine the block the transaction will be confirmed.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on March 23, 2024, 07:56:29 AM

You can do that on full client wallets like Bitcoin Core if you run your own node.

So you are saying we can make transactions without paying the TX fee? or I am imagining! haha. Well if I am not then this information is new to me, I don't run any full client wallet like it, only using SPVs. hmm, if we can really make tx without paying fees using full clients then how miners and validators are going to make money? I mean this changes the whole thing/POV for me Wink

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on March 24, 2024, 09:32:41 AM

Quote from: Yamane_Keto on March 24, 2024, 09:04:05 AM

Since we are in a free market, the priority for confirming transactions is with the highest fees. Therefore, in terms of terminology, canceling the transaction must have a higher fee to ensure it will be included in the next block.

No. That's not a must.
If a transaction has been flagged as RBF and you replace is with a new one paying higher fee, almost all nodes will remove the original transaction from their mempool and it will the replacement transaction that will be included in the blockchain.

If you want your replacement transaction confirmed in the next block, you can pay a high fee rate so that it will be included in the next block, but that's not required if you are not in a hurry.
You can replace the original transaction with a new one and wait until the replacement transaction is confirmed.

If I am not wrong, when we do RBF or cancellation as OP requested we are not going to replace the transactions, we only create new transaction that means both the transactions will be present in the pool and one with higher fee will be confirmed and the remaining one will be removed by the nodes. Am I wrong here?

So if this logic applies to cancellation then having high fee is mandatory if we want the second transaction to be confirmed over the first one.

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Quote from: Zaguru12 on March 24, 2024, 09:44:05 AM

The only time where I think you need to set a higher fee as must for it to confirm early is when the transaction wasn’t even RBF enabled at first and you have fears that some nodes who aren’t full RBF enable might still hold on to the old transaction ( which currently I think is rare)

Right. I would also do so, if the original transaction has not been flagged as RBF and I want to increase the chance of the second transaction being confirmed.
I don't have access to any data, but I don't think nodes that have not enabled full RBF yet are rare.

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on March 24, 2024, 09:04:05 AM

Cancel and pump are newbie-friendly terms that describe how double spending will be handled, so from a beginner’s perspective, when sending to the wrong address or is exposed to scam, “cancel transaction” will return coins and therefore should have higher priority than “pumping transaction,” which means you increased the fee but may not be enough to confirm the transaction.
Since we are in a free market, the priority for confirming transactions is with the highest fees. Therefore, in terms of terminology, canceling the transaction must have a higher fee to ensure it will be included in the next block.

But in terms of “double spending” or how to process it, what you say is correct.

Just look at cancelling transaction as an RBF order, and In an RBF method although some wallets will suggest you to increase your fees it is not a must to have the fees be a high priority one you can simply set the fees and you will wait. Your fear of the former transaction been approved is not there because nodes will have removed that transaction from their mempool and input the new one. The only time where I think you need to set a higher fee as must for it to confirm early is when the transaction wasn’t even RBF enabled at first and you have fears that some nodes who aren’t full RBF enable might still hold on to the old transaction ( which currently I think is rare)

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on March 24, 2024, 09:04:05 AM

Since we are in a free market, the priority for confirming transactions is with the highest fees. Therefore, in terms of terminology, canceling the transaction must have a higher fee to ensure it will be included in the next block.

No. That's not a must.
If a transaction has been flagged as RBF and you replace is with a new one paying higher fee, almost all nodes will remove the original transaction from their mempool and it will the replacement transaction that will be included in the blockchain.

If you want your replacement transaction to be confirmed in the next block, you can pay a high fee rate so that it will be included in the next block, but that's not required if you are not in a hurry.
You can replace the original transaction with a new one and wait until the replacement transaction is confirmed.

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on March 23, 2024, 11:29:10 AM

No. You are wrong.
When you replace a transaction with a new one, you must pay the higher fee for the replacement transaction and it doesn't matter you send the fund to the same address as the original transaction or you change the receiving address to your own address.

Cancel and pump are newbie-friendly terms that describe how double spending will be handled, so from a beginner’s perspective, when sending to the wrong address or is exposed to scam, “cancel transaction” will return coins and therefore should have higher priority than “pumping transaction,” which means you increased the fee but may not be enough to confirm the transaction.
Since we are in a free market, the priority for confirming transactions is with the highest fees. Therefore, in terms of terminology, canceling the transaction must have a higher fee to ensure it will be included in the next block.

But in terms of “double spending” or how to process it, what you say is correct.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: Yamane_Keto on March 23, 2024, 10:18:07 AM

Canceling a transaction always requires higher fees than pumping it.

No. You are wrong.
When you replace a transaction with a new one, you must pay the higher fee for the replacement transaction and it doesn't matter you send the fund to the same address as the original transaction or you change the receiving address to your own address.

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Quote from: Doan9269 on March 23, 2024, 07:14:05 AM

you cant imagine that it cost 4 USD for instance to cancel a transaction and 1 USD to pump it, which is more preferable, then i realized that the transaction was not sent initially, therefore, no transaction sent and confirmed can be cancelled.

Canceling a transaction always requires higher fees than pumping it.

In canceling a transaction, you change the output transactions to one of your wallet addresses, and you need to guarantee that the new transaction will be included in the next block to cancel the old transaction. Therefore, the fees must be higher than the previous transaction, while in the case of pumping old transaction. It does not matter whether the transaction is confirmed before or after pumping.

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Quote from: pakhitheboss on March 23, 2024, 08:11:47 AM

An alternate option would be to increase the fee which I think you cannot do as you are sending the maximum amount that you have in your wallet.

You don't have to pay the extra fee from your wallet. You can decrease the payment amount to cover the extra fee.

Quote from: Kristiyana on March 23, 2024, 09:04:32 AM

However in bitcoin I don't think if you're allowed to cancel the transaction that has already been initiated,even if you succeeded in the cancellation they will still charge you for making attempt,that is why they didn't refund the transaction fee.

The fee you pay for cancelling a transaction is not for the attempt.
As already said in this thread, for cancelling a payment, you have to replace your transaction with a new one paying higher fee sending the fund to yourself. The fee you pay is for the replacement transaction.

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Quote from: Btcdeybodi on March 23, 2024, 05:23:16 AM

I made a transaction about four days ago, I used 10. sat/vbyte but since then the transaction have been without confirmation so yesterday I decided to cancel the transaction hoping that the principal amount I wanted to send out and the mining fee will be returned together but to my surprise the mining fee was not refunded even when the transaction was not mined because there was no confirmation.

Why was the transaction fee not refunded?

I'm also wondering why they didn't refund the transaction fee,since the transaction you initiated was not successful they are suppose to refund your money back both the transaction fee. Had it been it was bank I'm pretty sure that they would have refund your money back to you with the transaction fee, that is one advantage of using Bank. However in bitcoin I don't think if you're allowed to cancel the transaction that has already been initiated,even if you succeeded in the cancellation they will still charge you for making attempt,that is why they didn't refund the transaction fee.

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Quote from: Btcdeybodi on March 23, 2024, 05:23:16 AM

I made a transaction about four days ago, I used 10. sat/vbyte but since then the transaction have been without confirmation so yesterday I decided to cancel the transaction hoping that the principal amount I wanted to send out and the mining fee will be returned together but to my surprise the mining fee was not refunded even when the transaction was not mined because there was no confirmation.

Why was the transaction fee not refunded?

Bitcoin is not a bank, when. you cancel a transaction through a bank it refunds the fee and the transaction. However, there is a small cancellation fee involved which is not small if you consider how banks make money only with fees. Cancellation of a transaction on Bitcoin is not allowed but you can still do it if you are using the right wallet. The cancellation of the transaction is nothing but replace-by-fee, which means you pay another fee to replace your transaction. An alternate option would be to increase the fee which I think you cannot do as you are sending the maximum amount that you have in your wallet. Always keep a backup of satoshi as the Bitcoin transaction fee is more volatile than Bitcoin.

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Quote from: Zaguru12 on March 23, 2024, 07:50:27 AM

The only thing to be clear off is that no wallet currently allows broadcasting of transactions without fees, if not it’s not a network protocol that you must add fees to transactions.

You can do that on full client wallets like Bitcoin Core if you run your own node.

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Quote from: Mia Chloe on March 23, 2024, 07:08:36 AM

So if you broadcast a transaction with a very low fee, that it is purged, what then happens to the fees since no miner included it in a block?

The whole transaction remains in your wallet with the fee too, which means no miner actually pick your transaction and included in their mined block and as such they can’t also get the fees you included in it because no work was done by them to claim your incentives.

What I meant about you been wrong is that you said the blockchain needed the fees to add your transactions and that’s not true as it doesn’t. A transaction without fee can still get confirmed if the miner decides to pick it. For example you can be a miner and I will just send my transaction details for you to pick it and add it to your next mining block without having to include any transaction fee.

The only thing to be clear off is that no wallet currently allows broadcasting of transactions without fees, if not it’s not a network protocol that you must add fees to transactions.

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Quote from: Doan9269 on March 23, 2024, 07:14:05 AM

you cant imagine that it cost 4 USD for instance to cancel a transaction and 1 USD to pump it, which is more preferable, then i realized that the transaction was not sent initially, therefore, no transaction sent and confirmed can be cancelled.

Both bump fee and cancel transaction are almost the same thing as you double spend the transaction. In both, you have the second (child transaction). The child transaction weight or virtual byte will determine how higher the fee can increase more.

Let us imaging that they are of the same addresses. Either cancel transaction is of the same fee as bump fee or of lower fee or vice versa. It can be of lower fee if you are sending the coin to many addresses, but instead send it back to one address if you want to cancel the transaction to just one address. So I can say that both are of the same fee but it depends on the child transaction vbyte or weight that will determine how higher the total fee to be paid would be.

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Quote from: Btcdeybodi on March 23, 2024, 05:23:16 AM

Why was the transaction fee not refunded?

Bitcoin network is Proof of Work and Miners have their roles to find blocks, confirm transactions from Bitcoin users. Finding blocks, confirming transactions are works of miners and they receive bitcoins for their works.

So, is it logic to require Bitcoin miners to refund transaction fee to Bitcoin users?

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In addition to all that has been said, from my own experience too, when i tried to use the feature of cancel transaction on the electrum wallet, i discovered that the transaction was not being broadcasted, which means you're yet to send the transaction and the ugliest aspect was the increase in the fee rate to cancel the transaction which i cant afford to bear than to just go by pumping the transaction to higher fee affordable enough, you cant imagine that it cost 4 USD for instance to cancel a transaction and 1 USD to pump it, which is more preferable, then i realized that the transaction was not sent initially, therefore, no transaction sent and confirmed can be cancelled.

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Quote from: Mia Chloe on March 23, 2024, 06:54:40 AM

so saying your transaction fees should be refunded means you are indirectly saying that every node should purge your transaction from the block chain. And that would have been possible if you had made use of a fee below 6sat/byte. Probably only the node network of the wallet you used would have broadcasted it while other node will simply just purge it because of the extremely low fees.

Let us say the purging is 2.91 sat/vbyte right now. If the server of the wallet that you used set the purging to be less than usual, and you used a fee of 2.5, the server that the wallet used may make the transaction to be broadcasted successfully. But if it is by default and it is 2.91 sat/vbyte as it is Right now, any transaction with the fee rate below that will not be broadcasted by the server of the wallet used.

Also know that if the server has already broadcasted the transaction and later the server dropped the transaction in a way that the sender can spend the coins again in another transaction, if the sender decided not to spend the coin again, the sender should not be surprised if the transaction he thought to have been dropped later got confirmed because the unconfirmed transaction has been sent to other nodes and some nodes have different settings.

So if you want a transaction to be sent back to you, it is better you use RBF to cancel the transaction to send the coin to the address that you own.

Quote from: Mia Chloe on March 23, 2024, 07:08:36 AM

transaction with a very low fee, that it is purged, what then happens to the fees since no miner included it in a block?

If a transaction is dropped from mempool, the fee will also be dropped because there is no transaction at all as the transaction dropped from mempool.

Just regard node and server as the same in my reply.

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Quote from: Zaguru12 on March 23, 2024, 07:05:59 AM

Quote from: Mia Chloe on March 23, 2024, 06:54:40 AM

In addition to what Charles-Tim said, the transaction fees act as a form of payment for the block space your transaction occupies on the Bitcoin blockchain. so saying your transaction fees should be refunded means you are indirectly saying that every node should purge your transaction from the block chain. And that would have been possible if you had made use of a fee below 6sat/byte. Probably only the node network of the wallet you used would have broadcasted it while other node will simply just purge it because of the extremely low fees.

This is not true, the block doesn’t need your transaction fee for it to have it stored there, so also is the blockchain. The only thing needed by the bitcoin network which is handled by the nodes is that your transaction should just meet the requirements like it hasn’t been spend before, that’s what nodes verify your transaction for.

The transaction fee is just an incentive to the miner to include your transaction into their block other than other transactions since they are junk of them and that’s why you see miners prioritizing transactions based on fees. This has nothing to do with the transaction been included into a block. A transaction without transaction fee can also be included into a block and consequently to the blockchain

So if you broadcast a transaction with a very low fee, that it is purged, what then happens to the fees since no miner included it in a block?

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Quote from: Mia Chloe on March 23, 2024, 06:54:40 AM

In addition to what Charles-Tim said, the transaction fees act as a form of payment for the block space your transaction occupies on the Bitcoin blockchain. so saying your transaction fees should be refunded means you are indirectly saying that every node should purge your transaction from the block chain. And that would have been possible if you had made use of a fee below 6sat/byte. Probably only the node network of the wallet you used would have broadcasted it while other node will simply just purge it because of the extremely low fees.

This is not true, the block doesn’t need your transaction fee for it to have it stored there, so also is the blockchain. The only thing needed by the bitcoin network which is handled by the nodes is that your transaction should just meet the requirements like it hasn’t been spend before, that’s what nodes verify your transaction for.

The transaction fee is just an incentive to the miner to include your transaction into their block other than other transactions since they are junk of them and that’s why you see miners prioritizing transactions based on fees. This has nothing to do with the transaction been included into a block. A transaction without transaction fee can also be included into a block and consequently to the blockchain

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In addition to what Charles-Tim said, the transaction fees act as a form of payment for the block space your transaction occupies on the Bitcoin blockchain. so saying your transaction fees should be refunded means you are indirectly saying that every node should purge your transaction from the block chain. And that would have been possible if you had made use of a fee below 6sat/byte. Probably only the node network of the wallet you used would have broadcasted it while other node will simply just purge it because of the extremely low fees.

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If you cancel a bitcoin transaction, not that you actually cancel it. You only increase the fee so that the coin can be sent with higher fee to another of your wallet address.

Next time, just use pump fee/increase the fee instead if you are still willing to send the coin to the receiving address.

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I made a transaction about four days ago, I used 10. sat/vbyte but since then the transaction have been without confirmation so yesterday I decided to cancel the transaction hoping that the principal amount I wanted to send out and the mining fee will be returned together but to my surprise the mining fee was not refunded even when the transaction was not mined because there was no confirmation.

Why was the transaction fee not refunded?

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