Topic: Why bitcoin mixers are only for criminals (Read 749 times)

I would like to ask you to show a single evidence that he's a criminal. Any convictions? But I better let it be. You don't have any anyway and it would just result in a unnecessary discussion in which you would embarrass yourself in every post more and more.

Of course fiat is used for criminal activity. I've never said anything else. From the street up to the top.

Secret services finance and create terrorist groups or finance human mind control experiments.
Some banks finance wars with fiat and some drug cartels launder billions of dollars and bribe a senator with fiat.

Corruption causes most world problems which affect every single individual on our beautiful planet.

That's why need a transparent digital finance system. You just can't let it be how it is because normal persons use fiat for normal and good things in their daily life's.

When you make corruption and criminal actives with money not possible you solve the worlds problems.
Can't do war when you can't finance it

But still bitcoin mixers are only for criminals and not also for some normal persons.

I started talking about mixers. You started talking about some of my other posts and referring to my quotes like bitcoin is not bitcoin anymore. So you started the whole thing. You don't have to red flag your lies saying I'm the one who wants to use this post to spread information regarding other topics.

There are already fiber cables out there doing terabytes. When your investing millions of dollars in a mining operation you also want the best and fastest fiber cables that exists right now in the world.

Mining will be the most competitive industry in the world. Every miner wants to be best and to be the best you need to have the best equipment. A miner also has to get better. If he stops doing so he will fail, cant compete with other miners and he loses hes million dollar investment. Home nodes do nothing they are worthless. Your only a node when you mined successfully a block in the 2016 block period.

Miners always need to get better. Better and more mining devices, infrastructure, better security, better ddos protection, better and faster fiber cables.

Miners can't hide. They have a physical location which is know to everyone. Everyone knows who they are and where they are. When they try to cheat they get rejected and lose millions. And with future laws all their assets are seized and they lose everything. No real business men does or wants that.

When you want to start in industries like oil, airline, huge construction or energy you can't start with a 10k loan from your parents.

You need a hundreds of millions of dollars. Otherwise you can leave.

The same will be with the mining industry in the future. In most part the mining industry is like that already right now.

So mining terabyte blocks is possible. You have to give the miner the opportunity to mine a block big as he wants. If its so big that other miners can't handle it its their problem and they can leave. They have to get better or they can get out of businesses. Again they don't do or want that so they also get better.

A digital currency using pow is secured by economics and not by just cryptography and some holy grail and fake illusions like why all are flying around with cryptography in a digital cyber tunnel and nobody can stop us. 

You can be esoteric as a human but you can't be esoteric with technology.

And with "we" I mean every human on this planet. The technology is revolutionary.
With "we" I mean everyone. Me, you, rich, poor and everyone else. Just everyone.

We need a digital peer-to-peer cash system which makes everyone's life better.

Billions of transactions per block. Try that with a 1MB + segwit block.

Not something like btc which you can use for nothing and just enriches some billionaires and speculators.

With btc you couldn't even handle a city with about 50k citizens.

When you do it right you can change the whole world.

Many have operated under the false belief that Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies offer some kind of safe haven from the law. Coin mixers and darknet markets are two products of this belief.But that has changed in the past few years, and cases like Harmons are evidence they are now taking a tougher approach. And Bitcoin, remember, has a permanent public ledger of all transactions.BTC uses Lightning Network to process smaller transactions due to its deliberately-limited on-chain transaction capacity.

It may be that, despite all the well-founded counterarguments, you are still holding on to your opinion. The problem is only that you seem to live in your own truth and therefore you cannot accept any other opinion at all. You also didn't refute my conclusion that you have no idea at all how mixers work technologically and why they are therefore unattractive to criminals. Maybe you should educate yourself a bit before you continue to make a fool of yourself. Just a suggestion.

Golden words.

I find it funny how people supporting criminals are looking for ways to reduce criminality rates. I never stood why we're looking for equality and fairness when the ones giving us orders are criminals themselves. The rules either apply to everyone or to nobody. What regulating BTC does is we're going to be required extra documents and our privacy will become inexistent while criminals wi still use it their own way.

In other words, what this leads to is full surveillance and control while stopping a negligible percent of the illicit activity.

That doesn't count as an excuse that mixers can still be used for such malicious purposes. No matter how the developer or creator envisioned their mixer, it will still boil down to the fact that mixers can clean coins that are tainted due to illegal activities.

Maybe why most of all user of bitcoin mixer is criminal as what you said is because of capability of bitcoin mixer to hide them because using bitcoin mixer they can use bitcoin more privately in that matter its hard to the government to trace them and penalize for what they did.

To my knowledge, not all user mixers are criminals, sometimes people need privacy when making transactions. And so far only Bitcoin mixers have been
able to provide privacy, so there is no hard evidence to suggest Bitcoin mixers are only for criminals. Because so far criminals use fiat to commit crimes
than cryptocurrency. Based on this, I assume that there are very few criminals using Bitcoin mixers. So the conclusion is Bitcoin mixers have more
positive effects than negative effects, because Bitcoin mixers are needed in the crypto world.

Can I ask you? is fiat never been used by criminals for funding any terrorist activity?

We know that mixers are prone to criminal activity but it doesn't if you will use a mixer you are a criminal. There are pros and cons to bitcoin mixers and the reason why they still exist now. To increase the anonymity per transaction that we want, do you think if there is a huge transaction made public and will reveal your identity will not give risk in your life?

Good thing there's a bitcoin mixer that increases to hide identity, but it doesn't matter if there is a bad intention who will be used to it, that's their problem once they caught.

Whoah hold on! I do understand your point but concluding that EVERYONE who uses a bitcoinmixer equates to being a criminal or at least someone involved in criminal activities is just wrong in so many levels. You cannot live in a black-and-white world where there are only two (2) options for you.

Bitcoinmixers are created in order to conceal transactions when you send them to one address to another. While it may be true that it can be an avenue for illegal activities, it was also created for privacy and security.

TBH, it's specifically not for OP alone, but to all those who love privacy over anything and have at least used mixers once in their life. According to what OP has concluded and represented here, every newbie reading his post will think that the one who uses a mixer, straight away gets categorized as a criminal just because they thought for their privacy. It's ridiculous how people think about such services, but a service is a service and when these people are not satisfied with it, nobody asks them to use such services. Just the way you said, if a criminal knows about it, he will definitely use it to satisfy his evil mind's thoughts as well as his ego.

Who is this "we" you're referring to?  That sounds like that's something you need because you can't get it.  You can't get it because such a network would never garner sufficient usage or network effects in order to fill gigabyte blocks (let alone terabyte ones).  You simply don't understand the incentives required to secure the chain.  You can't build an economy with empty promises.  I've seen so many clueless rejects like you over the years who think they know how to make Bitcoin "better" with your banal ideology that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  Unless you're just one of the old rejects back again with a new username and the same tired old lines, of course.  But keep trying (and failing).  You're never going to make any progress here.  

 

Uh huh.  Cool story bro.  Tether is unquestionably a time bomb, but there is no damage it can do to Bitcoin as a network or a protocol.  The people who are going to get hurt there are mostly the ones holding Tether.  I honestly don't care if there's some short term turmoil with price.  Bitcoin's price isn't what's important.  If you think it is, you're only highlighting your ignorance further.  The important aspects are all the ones your fantasy "terabyte blocks coin" would never be able to achieve, assuming:
 
a) anyone was actually stupid enough to try to create it and  
b) it actually managed to fill those blocks.  Obviously it would never fill them because the only users would be misguided fools like you.

But now that you've revealed your true agenda, perhaps consider dropping the flimsy pretence and acting like this is anything to do with mixers.  Your purpose here is obvious.  Disinformation and propaganda is your game.  You're about as subtle and nuanced as faketoshi himself.  I see right through you.

To spell it out for everyone else reading this, the intended target here isn't mixers, the attack being attempted here is very much on Bitcoin as a whole.  If everyone could stop playing along and fuelling this troll's ambitions, that would be just swell.  

//EDIT:  Brash colouring added so people notice. 

Better to ignore than on stressing out yourself on trying out to convince to those people who do have only shallow understanding when it comes to certain things without even rethinking

that those things had already been long existing when its still on fiat. Criminals do make use other mediums to take advantage on erasing up their tracks which is just a common sense
thing for those criminals to do so.

If they do find out such service that do juggle out your coins on making it completely anonymous then theres no doubt that they would really be flocking in with this option.

Centralized mixers are a horrible idea.

Look into CoinJoin and the upcoming CoinSwap for alternative methods of increasing privacy.

Is it the mixer's fault if criminals use it?
Leave mixers, is it Bitcoins fault that criminals use BTC to transact for their wrongdoings?
It's not like just criminals use BTC, we too use BTC and even more than those criminals just because we know how and should use it.
The same way, it's not just criminals who use mixers but some of us also use it to save ourselves from the pseudonymous nature of BTC. Tell me, where shall we go except mixers, to keep our transactions completely private by juggling our money and getting them on completely fresh addresses?

You are such a faschist!

Just because I have nothing to hide, does not mean I am not entitled to privacy.

He hasn't done anything criminal so hes not a criminal.


What does one have to do with the other?


BTC is not Bitcoin. Bitcoin as we knew it, has been compromised by a company, banks and devs who don't even understand what bitcoin really is. Including you and the 99% of the BTC community.

If you think a 1MB block blockchain, which is kept slow and bad on purpose,  with transaction fees up to 25 dollars (since many months) and the possibility to RBF, is a peer-to-peer digital cash system and bitcoin, then your completely lost.

You can't use BTC for anything right now. People into bitcoin around the globe believe in this crap that bitcoin is now some store of value or digital gold due to the worldwide fake news progoganda. That's not how bitcoin is designed to be.

BTC is now for billionaires, speculators and 40yo moms who heard about it, want to buy it, but still think you need to register to use BTC.

You probably even support lightning network from blockstream which just enriches them and big financial institutions and banks because you will need a financial license to run a payment hub. Lightning network is not P2P.  
You BTC guys think your some kind of rebel but you will end up by using a system controlled by companies like VISA and Mastercard if lightning should succeed. Well done haha.  
Bu the lightning network won't have success. Its so bad and small that right now regulators don't even care about  .

What we need are instant transactions (no RBF) and miners who mine terabyte blocks.
Billions of transactions per block. Transaction script where you can store any kind of data.

Not some shitty raspberry pi idiots and home users who make the whole network slow. Again, something btc people don't understand. They still try to make running btc core possible on a bad home user pc.
Or in other words: "Decentralized". Which is nothing more than bullshit.
They simply don't realize that they are all worthless. Miners keep the network secure and running, not some raspberry pi who does nothing.

Two things will make BTC fail.
Its bad implementation including the fact that its useless.
Another reason which will make btc even more worse in the eyes of everyone:
The revealing of the truth that 70% of btc's price is fake and pumped up by tether with fake money which will cause the btc price to fall by over 95%.

BTC will be the NetScape of the digital currency industry. Pretty ugly...

BTC will fail.
Or maybe your some kind of fetish guy who likes to wait 10 minutes in the grocery store to wait for his transaction to be confirmed because nobody can trust that you don't RBF. Then BTC will have one last user.
Oh wait, you won't have miners then anymore...

No one is denying that bitcoin mixers are being used by criminals what we are denying is that only criminals are using bitcoin mixers, big difference, many people use them just to protect their privacy, it seems that you are fine with your privacy being taken away by governments and private institutions, and if that is the case that is fine, but that is you, you cannot expect the rest of the people to agree with your vision.

This means that for the people that want to retain their privacy even if they are doing nothing wrong there should be a way for them to keep it and that is exactly what bitcoin mixers do, they give the option to those that want to retain their privacy to take it, if you don't want to you don't have to take it but you cannot expect everyone to agree with the way to think.

Are you so naive? Of course they don't say it directly that its for criminal. Financial scammers also don't say in their fake ads that's its a pyramid scheme and the only one who's going to make money are themself. 
You probably would still believe smoking is healthy just because you see an ad with someone saying so.

You are not Satoshi Nakamoto. You are also not Steve Jobs just because you're using an apple product. Your into some kind of cult?

What do you mean? Even if we use what Satoshi ever created, it doesn't mean we deserve to call as Satoshi. Also, remember that what we are doing now isn't the same as what Satoshi ever did in the last. There are many differences between us and Satoshi, so it is better to not saying "we are all satoshi". I think it is not a proper word to say. 

Satoshi tried to create an alternative that avoids the third parties in transactions. So, we can transfer currency without an expensive fee and easy to do since no need for others. But I guess Satoshi never stated to quit the current financial system. I still didn't see the statement of Satoshi that called people to quit or free from the current financial system. CMIIW

Assumptions like this or simply impressions are really common because there are people who are really that too investigative that kind of behavior when it came to things and once they do find out

some hole then they do really make it out as an issue without even thinking first on how relevant this service platforms existence into this market.We cant deny though the probability of being

used towards criminal acts but doesnt really mean that it would really be treated as a whole bad thing when it did commit one of its possible characteristics when it comes to privacy matters.

Hey dude, you still saying this craps, haven't you seen the business title chipmixer displays on their signature page" Mixing reinvented for your privacy" NOT Mixing reinvented for your criminal act" your common sense should correct you than some sort of endless argument of yours.

Beside privacy is privacy, hiding because of criminal behavior is privacy, unwanting to undergo transparency is privacy, understand this.

Then you're supporting a criminal.



Says the person who keeps repeating "BTC is not Bitcoin".   

You're the one in denial because you've drunk the faketoshi kool-aid and can no longer see the facts as they are.  BTC is Bitcoin and CSW is a lying, manipulative con-man.

...that you can use in a peer-to-peer manner as well, without having to interact with a third-party. Craigslist exists and that's a proof face-to-face txs aren't "a mistake". The difference is, after you meet someone f2f and they hand you a $100 bill, you cannot check its entire history from the moment it's been printed. This is where mixers come in as handy.

What is your position about cash? Do you like it, or would you rather be a bank's slave and declare where your money comes from, where it goes and what kind of toilet paper you like?

Why accuse me of crimes when I ain't a criminal? Why should I prove something you suppose is coming from an illicit source? Why do you even care as a company about my finance?

And then, there are companies abusing KYC to steal. Freewallet does that. And Bittrex. And many more.

We are all satoshi.

When you have used bitcoin or the blockchain (which ever one that maybe) for that matter,
you have used satoshi's technology therefor you are satoshi in a way.
This was their insight on creating the blockchain, in the first place:
So to free those from their current financial system.

I'm not agreeing on any point which people posted here, so I'm still believing in my own opinion . Bitcoin mixers are only for criminals. The same with privacy coins.

I'm also not an BSV fanboy. Yes I believe that CSW is satoshi and I also know that many things that he says are right but that's it. I have no relationship with BSV nor I had.

The reason you all don't accept it is simply because it destroys your fake reality that satoshi is some underground anarchistic hacker dodging bullets like neo in the matrix.
And as we know, people do everything to defend their reality

People still think when googling "hacker" that satoshi looks like that.

Its a peer-to-peer digital cash system. In terms of network and technical design. Not in terms of meeting in person to sell or trade it.

Then proof the exchange that the coins your owning are not from criminal origin and your good to go.

Most of financial transaction in the darknet are still done over bitcoin (for whatever reason). Privacy coins are coming up but there's still a huge demand for mixers.

Why should you hide your coins as an early miner when your going to sell huge amounts on a regulated exchange? The exchange doesn't care if its early mined or freshly. There's also no risk to face when doing so.

We're in the digital age, and more of that we're always part of a nation. This means we'll be under a government, and here we need the privacy. For that purpose we're using bitcoin mixers so that our identity won't get revealed. Then doesn't it mean that you're doing some form of laundering activities or trying to get out of taxation. Mixers aren't used for criminal activities, these day we've got Bitcoin usage high as investment than criminal activities and to stay hidden from the government people prefer it.

We are already on digital age or era which means that anything that do implies nor involved with anonymity will surely be considered to be one of the best ways on making out these illegal transaction.
Those words you have said was indeed true somehow but there are other coins which is more anonymous that Bitcoin itself which is im talking with Monero etc.
It is just a wrong perception to have this to be implied on mixers because they arent really created solely for criminals but rather on pure anonymity itself.
They are just taking advantage with that one.

In my opinion, the thinking is very shallow if there are people who think Bitcoin mixers are only for criminals. In fact, criminals are more comfortable
using privacy coins than having to use Bitcoin mixers. After all, the original purpose of Bitcoin mixers was created to protect the privacy of its users
and not be used to commit crimes. I believe the opening post said that Bitcoin mixers are only for criminals based on his estimation alone, and did not
do the research properly.

Criminals has privacy coins if they want to get real anonymity. Or cash. Bitcoin is not the best even after mixers

That is a really flawed argument, privacy is a right and just because you don't have anything to hide then you don't need privacy. If I were to use that logic, that also means that people doesn't need clothes because they don't have anything to hide because clothes is some sort of privacy. Privacy coins were designed to be used by people that are living on surveillance states.

I don't have what to rethink because I already know BTC is used way less often in crimes than fiat is. With mixers, even less. Prove me wrong

Buying crypto with fiat in person is the way Bitcoin was created to be. Peer-to-peer. In real life or virtually with multisig and smart contracts, crypto makes this possible. And that is not my fault since this can happen with exchanges as well. Once you create an account on an exchange and deposit some BTC, expect them to spy on you.

Blockchain analysis companies have developed API tools that work automatically. You don't even need a human operator to spy on all your customers. We're in the era of technology and AI - it works out of the box with no human needed. Unrealistic? Say that to all those dust attacks and all those people who've got their accounts banned on exchanges for their history (or even future) transactions. Some exchanges literally look into your deep wallet history. They can, and they care.

If Bitcoin mixers are designed for criminals, privacy coins are designed for criminals only too. Why do ordinary people need privacy if they have nothing to hide?

I think they actually understand pretty well and are simply making dishonest arguments to stir the pot.  It helps if you try to view the intent behind this topic through the eyes of someone who is trying to spread faketoshi CSW propaganda.  It's the only way this thread makes sense.  The OP is just a BSV fanboy who believes regulation at protocol level is the way forward.  Obviously they're not going to find much success with that ideology around here.  Pay them no mind.

Criminals will always be here and will always find a way how to launder their money. So even without mixers, they will have other options out there. But too bad, mixers are getting this bad notion in their business. People thought that you are using mixer because of some illegal things going on. This perspective is hard to eliminate though. Like for example, you are using mixer for the sake of your clients. There are still good things why mixers are needed in this industry. However, people are very judgmental human beings.

if you create a topic of this type you will undoubtedly be greeted with many negative posts, but unfortunately the harsh reality will sooner or later be stamped on people's faces. I think the owners of the mixers created the mixers with good intentions, but eventually the criminals took advantage of the mixers. it is enough to see that governments are tough with laws that involve financial services and I do not see any day when we see a mixer being licensed or approved by governments, mixers are condemned to be used by criminals of the worst kind unfortunately the owners of the mixers are not there is a way to stop criminals who use mixers for malefic purposes and the only way out for the future will be the closure of many mixers and the governments will be chasing the owners of the mixers

I've used mixers multiple times and I can assure you  I am neither a criminal nor involved in any kind of illegal activity.
I use mixers because I buy and sell bitcoin regularly and don't want my clients to be linked to each other and because I respect their right to privacy.

Even if we admit you are right and, somehow, we find a way to shut down all mixers, criminals will still have better alternatives to hide their traces such as using coinjoin, privacy coins...

It's very sad that you did not understand the actual purpose of Bitcoin mixers. Real criminals do not need mixers which, by the way, are not that anonymous as you think. Their outcome can often be calculated if you invest some time and energy. They rather use privacy coins.

There are countries in which Bitcoin is banned and since Bitcoin is easy tracable as you already stated, users from those counties often need to add some privacy to do transactions.

If I follow your logic, then all Tor users are criminals too.

I kinda agree with this one since I don't really use crypto or bitcoin mixers probably I guess try some just for curiosity or something, I just can't see the importance of using this crypto mixer.

For me, you don't really need too much privacy that the crypto mixers provide since they can't really know your identity just able to see your transactions if they know your bitcoin address or something, but that was just my opinion because I not some kind of whale, maybe a lot of people are concerned because of the amount of bitcoin they are holding not necessarily because they are some like of criminals.

So it's like a 50/50 for me, maybe we cant see the use of this for now but maybe in the future, we can use this in something that would benefit us.


A good example, I think you have your point, I mean it's up to you if you want to hide your transactions.

Well it is design to clean the track of the crypto so I guess it would really seems like it.
But there are some who would use it ensure that their savings wouldn't be tracked down on their known wallet.
For example my family or friends know my crypto address so they know how to look how much I am holding but I want to keep it hidden to them.

This reminds me a little bit about the argument about torrenting and privacy. We all say "peer-to-peer networking" is for sharing personal files among one another but e all know it's for pirating movies and games and software. I can't think of any reason why you would want to "mix" bitcoin. It is anonymous enough. How very paranoid do you need to be to use mixers? I ask the question why are you so paranoid to begin with? What are you doing that makes you paranoid.

Imagine what would happen if people did some homework and held the Legacy fiat systems to the same standard as Bitcoin?  

Coinbase would be forced to delist the Dollar and all the banks would be shut down.  The amount of death, destruction and crime committed with the USD and all fiat is exponentially higher than Bitcoin (mixers or not).

We can say that all the time but that doesn't discount the fact that mixers can be used for illegal purposes, remember that when there is a chance to abuse a system, people will always take the opportunity to exploit especially if it means that the watchful eye of the law will not be able to find what they are doing. We know that not only criminals are using mixers but are we going to be ignorant to the fact that mixers cater criminals too?

What improvement? Lets just accept that this is one of the con's or things that cant really be avoided on using up services like these on where
criminals would really be taking advantage of this service and blaming off the service isn't really just right but government do really love to target out
these gateways on trying to shut-off money laundering and other criminal fund transfers or whatsoever. How to deal with it?
better to ignore than to stress out yourself.

How do you know this? Any proofs, bro?
Bitcoin or coin mixers are basically created not for criminals, it is intended for people who need more privacy. If there are some criminals who use this service, it doesn't mean this service is created for them but it is one of the weaknesses or negative sides of this service. Then, maybe this mixer service needs more improvement.

If you hit a jackpot in a casino and you want to hide your coins with a mixer service, then are you a criminal?

If you was an early miner and you want to hide your coins with a mixer service, then are you a criminal?

I don't think so... A lot of criminals use the mixing service to hide their coins, but not all the users from the mixers are criminals, you can be sure of that.

It's fascinating how your decision on coin mixers is finite and how you seem to take rulings on arguments @OP.
Your very correct that, the criminals uses this services but, so do users with great concerned over the chain link of there transactions. The services is a need one and someone or group of persons have got to provide them and we find it in the hands of coin mixers.

I'm yet to use the services of coin mixers and i can't completely rule out the fact that, i might one day. I just haven't seen the need as i am okay with my transactions being visible for now.

They don't. In Europe. Simple as that.
Or, if they do, they would have to operate under the jurisdiction and according to the rules of European GDPR right, which would be very difficult indeed, to say the least. I.e., they would have to ascertain anonymization of all processed data etc., which ist (IMHO) practically impossible, but in theory doable.

That those companies operate outside of Europe is trivial, otoh.
Or do you believe for a second that every single country in the world would e.g. respect U.S. law?

In other words, from the point of view of the European Union, when it comes to chainalysis, the US is basically part of the "Axis of Evil".


It is. I've proven it. If you don't understand the proof, just ask.
I fully understand that you as a (likely) Non-EU-citizen may not be familiar with the jurisdiction of the largest economic superpower in the world, and I forgive you

This is not a matter of "who thinks what".
It's a simple fact.
You can look it up in a specific public legal document, which is available in English under
https://gdpr-info.eu
officially published by the (AFAIK) largest legal entity in the world.

Don't trust me, trust the largest body of lawyers in the world.


The belief that Coin Mixing would protect criminals is ridiculous.
The opposite is true.
Right now, using a Mixer usually raises a large, red flag, screaming loudly "look at me, I'm possibly doing something fishy".
That's why I don't believe for a second that any professional criminal would be stupid enough to use a mixer.
That's what they have organized crime in the form of so-called "Banks" for.

Mixers, when used by criminals, are most likely used by kids.
But that's a different story.


Again. As a European citizen, I do not only have the right to use a mixer, I consider it a duty.
Chainalysis, otoh, is absolutely illegal if put to use against a EU citizen.
Which makes every single company which perpetrates the criminal act of chainalysis a part of organized crime.
And that fact is proven by the biggest body of lawyers in the world, underwritten in the legal documents of the largest economic superpower in the world.
Now face it, mere mortal, bow to the superiority of European law

When I talk I like to express my opinions based on facts. You opened a thread stating that mixers are only for criminals and that is your opinion and it cannot be challenged.
I pointed out a research where you can find evidence and data that could even support your arguments but you do not look for a discussion here as you need to put forth your personal agenda. So be it, keep continuing your monologue

When chain analysis would be illegal then those companies won't exists. Simple as that.

And its not in any aspect self defense to mix his coins to protect oneself from a crime. The comparison with deadly self defense is very bad.

And basically nobody cares what you personally think is illegal or not

Prisons also don't care because a drug lord think his threaten illegally because he has only 3 programs on his tv.

So you want to protect every criminal because everyone has his own little reasons. So we should run criminals away with millions in bags because they think it would be illegal to search their bag.

1. Having not even one single address given is something complete different than KYC. I don't think KYC is required up to a specific amount. But at an specific amount range it should be obligation.
2. Cash is going away with technological evolution, so not a very interesting topic. And its a constitutional right in many countries so don't have to worry about that
    Besides that I talked about making fiat to crypto deals, face-to-face.
3. Yes, mixers are not needed because only criminals use them.
4. I've never heard of those two things. I've done some short search and all I know so for is that whirpool is a service and it uses a technology called Conjoin to obfuscate UTXOs. But I can't argue right now about that.
5. Yes, I'm against privacy based altcoins like monero. I've read even the book "Mastering Monero" and the technical part is very fascinating. But monero itself is very dangerous for our world.
    Basically everyone knows it but nobody wants to accept it. Neither the monero community or the devs. Who uses monero for normal transactions? And no merchant is accepting it. Besides some weird punk metal stores.
    Monero is the perfect tool created for criminals. Its the perfect payment method for every criminal. A wet dream of every criminal. Almost 100% transactions on the monero chain are from criminal deals. From drugs to child   porn.
6. Precious metals are goods from planet earth with many thousands year of history, so there's no need to make it illegal. The americans made it illegal in the 30s due to some obvious shadowy reasons but surely not because it was private.

We don't need many different altcoins which divides us.

We need one global transparent instant, fast and secure payment system. For everyone.

Banks won't go. Stop believing that. With the right technology you can only make them better and more honest.

Were not criminals from the street can finance a gun deal or some secret services can finance terror groups.

When you eliminate corruption and make it not possible you solve the problems of the world. Then there is no need to be anxious and saying things like "I need that service to hide my money"

I want a free, safe and secure world. For me, my family and everyone else. Not a world filled with corrupts and criminals which destroy millions of lives every day.

Our world will never be perfect and so will be life. But you can always make yours and the ones of everyone else better and more beautiful. Everyday.

No, that's not the main purpose the mixer was made for. You just have to admit that there is another important purpose about the creation of this service and I think you already know that. Mixer is designed for those who really care about privacy and it would still be justifiable to say that a mixer can help criminal disguise their transaction using a mixer. I can't blame fiat just for being used for criminal acts, and I can't blame guns just for being used by muggers and murderers. The service is not to be blamed for just allowing it to be used for bad, it is purely the fault of the users of that service.

Some people will not have option, some people will use p2p but because they still just want to have more privacy, they will still make use of mixers.

Then mixers should not be seen as a criminal tool, if you do, you are thinking one side. Okay, see this scenario, some people saying  bitcoin used in terrorism financing and money laundering, but before bitcoin were deadly terrorists, money launderers and other criminal activities fiats are used for. The people will not blame it on fiat, then why blaming it on bitcoin which is just for digital asset and money sake. Mixers also are for privacy sake but criminals will find their ways into something good, that is why there are many corrupt counties that have many government officials that embezzle their fiat currencies, are such government officials not criminals, they are. 

You can not blame on them.

Did you know the history or Nobel prize and the career of Alfred Nobel ^[1]. You can not blame on him when you see terrorists use gun, gun power to kill innocent people. It is not the fault from Nobel, never.

Mixers are the same. They give users privacy but they are opened for anyone on the planet to use. You can use them or ignore/ reject them. It is your decision.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Nobel

As you don't seem to understand the given argument, or might not have noticed it, I would like to reiterate.

Mixing is the only defense against the criminal act of chainalysis.
The legality of chainalysis is probably highly dependent upon your local jurisdiction, but as a European citizen, European law applies to my personal actions and also to the actions of foreign actors against me.
Which is why chainalysis that affects me is a crime.
And in fact, all chainalysis affects me.

Defending against a crime is not a crime in and of itself.
Even acts that may be considered criminal under different circumstances lose their status of illegality once they are committed in self-defense.

E.g. the use of lethal violence against another natural person is usually a crime.
In self-defense, it is not.

Therefore, for the approximately 450 Million EU citizens, mixing is not a crime, because chainalysis is in fact done against every single transaction on the Bitcoin network at any given point in time, which makes every single European Bitcoin user the victim of a criminal act, against which defense is legal.

For a European, mixing is most likely not only not a crime, it's a duty.
Defense against foreign criminal acts committed against the total of all Europeans is the legal basis for things like universal conscription, military expenses etc. pp.

In other words: Fellow European, I want you to mix your coins!

So according to your thoughts, we should:

Have no exchanges that don't have KYC.
No cash so we can't do face to face transactions.
No mixers because only criminals use them.
No services like whirlpool / conjoin for the same reason.
No privacy based altcions.
No precious metals because I could give someone gold / silver / rhodium or any bar of metal which is untraceable.

You must want a very bleak and depressing world or are just work for a bank who sees competition and is panicking.

-Dave
 

This topic is about coin mixers. You just wasted time posting about something which is completely unrelated to this topic. Looks like you didn't even read the title of this post carefully.

But your right. There's way more criminal activities with fiat (digital only - without cash) done than with all crypto currencies together.

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This topic is a about coin mixers and not digital currencies in general. Please read before post.

Doing crime on bitcoin or other transparent blockchain is not very smart. Thousands of high criminals using bitcoin got busted. In the future it will be impossible.

And laws will come to digital currencies worldwide. The longer they are without laws the more they are in danger.

---

Problem is bitcoin mixers are obvious created by criminals and used by criminals.

The same with an child porn forum or an drug cartel. You don't hire drug cartel members to cut your garden. So the kitchen knife analogy doesn't work.

---

Besides that the current topic here is coin mixers. Not any of these three are providing legal information on their website which makes it very dubious.

Swap exchanges of course have another use case. Simply swap your current crypto into another of your desire. Which of course is not only used by criminals.

But the use cases here for criminals are very high. Swapping to other coins and destroy the trace to the old coins which came from illegal deals. Hold that coin or simply swap it back to the old one on another swap exchange.

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You just said it yourself. According to the current law in your country you are a criminal. So I'm still right with my claim that coin mixers are only used by criminals.

I personally don't see you as a criminal at all. And almost everyone else wouldn't to so also. But your government does. And they control the country your currently living in.

Of course making owning bitcoin a crime is not acceptable. Looks like your government doesn't sees the high potential and benefits of its underlying technology. Or doesn't want to see it.

I hope the situation in your country gets better.

---

That's not an counterargument at all. Its so bad that I won't even go into it. Rethink

Buying crypto with fiat in person is a very bad idea in any aspect. So that's your fault. And why should they stalk you, sit all day in front of the computer and watch your transaction on block explorers without any clues where your sending your money to and for what reason. The most unrealistic scenario I've ever heard off. 

Privacy is not a criminal tool. As already someone stated here its dangerous to see it that people are using and abuse it for making crime or even judging their crimes.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

cryptocurrencies are too widespread in this world. We've even seen some gambling projects, adult content, and drug trafficking that provide them in the form of crypto tokens. I think it's very difficult to get rid of because crypto has no laws in the world. We can only avoid such use to not support crime.

It is ridiculous to claim that Bitcoin mixers are mostly used by criminals. I am not a criminal and I have used various Bitcoin mixers multiple times to protect my anonymity. Here in India, the government is considering to ban the possession of Bitcoin and make the ownership of BTC a criminal offense. So I regularly use Bitcoin mixers to keep my anonymity intact. Does that makes me a criminal? And I am sure that there are a lot of people like me, who are forced to use Bitcoin mixers.

Regarding the problem of Bitcoin mixers, it has often been discussed, in the end it is returned to ourselves to see from which point of view.
Because for me it is not wise to blame the mixers service without any evidence, because until now I have not found evidence that coin mixers
are only used for criminals. Or we can use the kitchen knife analogy, which was created for cooking. But for criminals it can be used to kill.
So in the end it depends on the user, if used for good things, of course Bitcoin mixers will be good. Likewise if used for bad things,
of course Bitcoin mixers are going to be bad.

If mixers were to go public and shut down their operations on scammers/illegal entities then it will defeat the purpose in the first place, I don't see the point that people are trying to defend mixers because it is true that they are used for such illegal activities, denying it would be looking the other way. I support the privacy of each individual but if that privacy is being used as an excuse to commit crimes, I think that I wouldn't mind having my privacy taken away, better that there are less crimes.

And lets face it, I know I have said it before, mixers are for people who don't want to go through the time & effort of hiding their coins themselves.

What I posted before.


Saying that mixers are designed / used by and for criminals just shows that you do not understand how crypto works or how to do things.
There are also the exchanges that do not require any form of registration such as https://changehero.io/ or https://flyp.me/en/#/ or https://coinswitch.co/
So are exchanges only for criminals too? How about any of the services that have face to face for cash trades (bisq) are they for criminals?


-Dave

This is probably the biggest fallacy of this age, if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear they say, and as such you need to reveal everything about yourself to everyone all the time, it is a ridiculous notion but thanks to social media that is the current paradigm in which we are.

We can use clothes as an example, clothes are not only a way to protect ourselves from the elements or a fashion statement, clothes are also a form of privacy, people decide with their clothing how much of their body they want to show and whether this is a lot or a little it is up to them to decide what level of privacy they wan to use, mixers are the same, there are people that do not care and as such they avoid mixers but there are those that may like to obtain more privacy without doing anything wrong and they use mixers, both postures are right and to try to demonize one or the other is wrong.

Are these kind of topic is a never ending one? We cant really deny on what are the things would be covered on when using up mixers this is why this business does really have some
negative image by the government because of the essence on making those transactions even way more anonymous.

We cant deny that this could really be used on that way or for that purpose but we cant deny the fact that there are people whom do make use of this service to erase up their
tracks or having completely anonymous for their own personal reason.

It isnt really needed for you to be criminal or some sort for you to make use because minding your own privacy and anonymity will really
be having these considerations.

I want to use a mixer in the near future for these reasons.

We know that Bitcoin transactions are not 100% anonymous, mixers add that
extra feature for legitimate reasons and benefits.

Criminals and scammers can use Bitcoin but we dont like the narrative of banning
the use of Bitcoin.


This is shocking, good sleuthing DooMAD

OP is likely just jealous because most mixers don't bother supporting their worthless forkcoin.  You know, the one that likes to pretend it's compliant with regulatory bodies when it actually isn't.  


For someone who vocally supports one of the shadiest criminals on the face of the planet, you're not really in a position to take the moral high-ground here.  

*Where do you get this data, whether it's accurate...
there may be a lot of criminals who use mixers to trick and make them anonymous, but there are also those who deliberately use mixers because they prioritize privacy. without accurate data, this just sounds like slander.

Simplest counterargument: by using fiat, you're supporting terrorism because terrorists are using it.

I've used mixers so that someone who's given me BTC loses its track. Imagine you've purchased $100 worth of BTC from a stranger and they suddenly start stalking you. They've got your entire immutable and undeniable history of all your txs since your purchase.

I've used mixers so that older addresses of mine don't get correlated with new ones. Who knows what kind of info those 2013 BTC accounts of mine held.

I just don't want my personal space invaded. Period. The fact that privacy is now considered to be a criminal's tool is sad.

Coin mixers being able to operate publicly is a sign that the Bitcoin economy has a way to go to see legitimacy. Of course coin mixers assist scammers as their purpose is literally to launder money. I’m sure at some point these operations will be shut down, have their funds confiscated, and likely their owners jailed. You would have to be borderline insane to try and operate one without being anonymous and even more insane to lend them BTC to try and earn a return.

Much has been said above.  I am adding this post to effectively "vote" in response.  I have been in BTC almost from the beginning.  I have never committed a crime where I could be arrested in my country so I am not hiding coins for that reason.  I simply demand anonymous/private coin storage for my BTC.  I don't want anyone to know I have coins or even know what they are.  With that in mind I can tell you honestly that I don't own any BTC that hasn't gone through multiple mixers - not one single SAT even.  I believe that BTC will be at least 100K by the end of 2021 (I know its my feeling) so the thought of someone, even simply my Gov't, being aware I have a stash of coins would frankly be DANGEROUS to my person.  For a criminal to approach a known BTC holder and say transfer coins to me or die - how easy would that be?  No thanks!

According to a Chainalysis report a tiny amount of around 1% of transactions can fall under criminal activity.
In 2019, illicit activity represented 2.1% of all cryptocurrency transaction volume or roughly $21.4 billion worth of transfers. In 2020, the illicit share of all cryptocurrency activity fell to just 0.34%, or $10.0 billion in transaction volume. One reason the percentage of illicit activity fell is because overall economic activity nearly tripled between 2019 and 2020. 
So a tiny minority uses cryptocurrency in an illicit way, while an outstanding majority play mostly by the rules.
What is the matter then?
https://go.chainalysis.com/2021-Crypto-Crime-Report.html

Prove it. Prove that mixers are used only by criminals and nobody else benefits from them.
In the modern world it's you who has to prove that somebody is guilty, you know that, right?
And when you'll actually attempt to do that you'll understand how wrong you are and how pointless this (yet again) topic is.

Unnecessary beginning.


How do you want to know if I won a large sum of bitcoin? Some kind of magic guy?


These ads are run for profit. Otherwise this forum is so poor that it has to accept money from criminals.


Its not false. Otherwise I would say something else. Reading is hard....


Very bad and blank statement. Why should people care about my transactions. If your parents are hiring chain analysis then I'm sorry for your childhood. And bitcoin is designed to be transparent, read the goddamn whitepaper.


Every country in this world requires legal specification on a website. Except private forums etc. But business related its required.

And you need legal documents to run financial institution. I don't want to know where your from...


So you just lie to your own arguments. Your saying people want to hide it because they don't want to know everyone that they own that much etc. But at the same time your saying bitcoin address is enough obfuscation. So for other people its not but for iranian it is?
Looks like you never learned or saw how to argument.


I just quoted in a post that I make an additional post about XMR. Already nervos Besides that the post is about mixers. And not about xmr, the church or war.


Think again, then post. Dude....


In the style of your answer and posting, I'm assuming your maybe 15-16 years old. You made an very unfunny and dumb comment without going into my arguments with which I literally refute all the argument of this guy.


I just said to the guy how to the current state of bitcoin related in the underground world is. I don't get your whole comment not at all. Learn thinking.


Thats like saying you should fight murders because they will exists always anyway. Baddest comment ever heard.

And its not smart to out yourself as an darknet criminal.

This discussion already happened 100's of times. Do people have to debunk this again?

Oh well I'll just do that myself and save everyone the trouble.


Wrong.

Have you ever thought that they can be used to hide money from criminals? If you win a large amount of BTC and want to move it somewhere where people won't harass and extort you for it then you'd use a mixer.


No, they are supporting the groups they want to support and they each have their reasons for them.

Each person will give you a different answer to this question and it's wrong to generalize that everyone using or advertising a mixer somehow whether through a site, ad or just an informal vouch is supporting criminals because if you take the time to ask each of them one by one you will eventually find out that people don't actually support criminals at all. If you ask me for example it's because I support people's right to hide their own money - which others don't have the right to see in the first place.
 


You definitely know the underlined part is false but maybe you won't admit it?  


This is basically saying that everybody is entitled to see where everybody else's money is and where they send it too. By contrast I don't think you would agree to let random people know where or what you spend your cash on, after all it's none of their business  


Sorry but "legal" is a subjective word that means different things to people/countries/entities. What is legal in one country may not be legal in another and also may not feel legal to you either. But each has their own definition of what is legal and you can't change that.

"...are illegal only alone by the fact that they are not even a company or anything" is utter bollocks because you don't have to have a legal document and registered company to offer services in bitcoin or even cash.

By the way, you may want to retract that underlined part because the scam brokers use fake "The Company's House" addresses in the UK, it takes like 5 minutes to cross check and verify that they don't actually exist.


I'm glad you know that too because literally no one in Iran who earns bitcoin honestly has to mix it to hide it from governments, the very fact it's in a bitcoin address provides enough obfuscation  


Dude, are you aware that most of darknet markets use only Monero?

Why not fume about that instead?


Your second sentence completely contradicts the first, by this logic a judge will charge the criminal who used the mixer not the mixer operators.


I think you are the only person in this entire thread who thinks that  


Yeah, only thiefs whose intention is to steal bitcoin will use bitcoin, have you ever thought of that and how it's completely misaligned with your criticism of mixers? One would think you'd be criticizing the thieves, gangsters, rapists who use bitcoin but instead of challenging the enabler, you've succumbed to... attacking a defenseless industry?

---

I want to feel bad for people crusading against bitcoin mixers because even if they all disappear their effort is wasted; most of the entire darknet has moved to XMR, but I don't. Maybe it's because I just don't care about them anymore. But one thing's for sure I was definitely not paid to debunk this.

You're welcome.  

Cyber criminals still use bitcoin, because its still the most used currency in the darknet (for whatever reason) and the most easy to use coin for ransomware (most known and easiest to get for ransomware victims). New ones started using XMR and its getting started more popular in the underworld. XMR would be worth an additional post   Again something almost only used by criminals (99%).

Sorry you are so right.....

We should support child porn. Sexual freedom! Everyone else is a anti-sexual-fredoom-for-everyone-including-pedos-blablabla

We should support drug traffickers like MS13 who kill over 50k people a year. Everyone else is RACIST, ANTI-HUMAN-BECAUSE-EVERYONE-IS-THE-SAME-LETSGO-DIRTY-HEROIN-DESTROYS-LIFE. Because people also order MS13 to cut their weed in the garden!!

We also should support darknet market were identity theft and other crimes happens. BECAUSE THERE ALSO PEOPLE BUYING THEIR GROCERIES THERE!! Everyone else is ANTI-I-BUY-DRUGS-ON-THE-DARKNET

Sorry but that are all very blank statements. First of all Bitcoin is a digital currency and not a product designed for criminals. Besides that it is very dumb for criminals to use bitcoins but that's an huge other topic. I only say that over 400 darknet markets went down due to bitcoin and a cyber criminal got arrested for ordering pizza with his bitcoin wallet. Doing crime on bitcoins is a big advantage for law enforcement. You can do more way way crimes on fiat (digital).

And we can blame the mixers. Its only used by and only designed for criminals. That's their whole business module. People running mixers got all arrested in the past, now sentencing over 10 years in federal prison.

I cant say: "Im running an marketplace called DRUGMARKET but police and nobody can't blame me for people selling illicit goods" or "Does to fault of child porn sites really goes to the creator?"

Operating a bitcoin mixer is running an criminal enterprise. Like a drug ring or something else.

Judges also not blaming the axe manufacture in a court case when a murder with an axe happened. They charge the murderer.

Privacy is not criminal, anyone who argues otherwise is probably an authoritarian fascist who wants to control everyone else.  Personally, I've never used a mixer, but anyone who wants extra privacy should do so.  Everyone does not have a right to know everything about everyone else.  Privacy is a human right.  Anyone who argues otherwise is anti human rights.

Counterarguments are many, just because you didn't come up with them, doesn't mean your final statement is accurate.  It just means you didn't think it through.

If you really don't consider privacy a human right, please post your real name, address, phone number, install a camera in each room in your house and open up your firewall, and post every financial transaction, from pay to buying a meal, online, whether you've used fiat, a credit card, a check or whatever.

The argument actually goes the other way round:
mixing in general is mainly a necessity because e.g. exchanges are complicit in the criminal act of "chainalysis" which is pretty obviously contrary to the privacy rights of e.g. European citizens.

Sorry, I've proven you wrong.

I think most criminals will prefer privacy coins like XMR rather than going in the hassle of bitcoin mixing service. But again the service of bitcoin mixer is not made to use it negatively. Its just that most people use it for illegal purpose and not for the good cause.

Bitcoin designed a "Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System", but peoples using it to scam others. Is that fault goes to the Bitcoin or Bitcoin creator? The mixer has designed to cut the links and receive clean coins, it's mostly using by those who care about privacy. If scammers or hackers using it then really can we blame the mixers? I don't think so. Also, fiat money using for fraud attempts, but we can't blame fiat. Mixers just break the links between transactions. It would be used by criminals or by legit Bitcoin users.

The forum doesn't moderate scams, if scammers using bitcoin to scam people then should the forum stop spread the words about Bitcoin. Same about mixers, if it's using by criminals, doesn't necessary to stop advertising here.

I've never used a Bitcoin mixer because while I support privacy, I'm okay with my transactions being visible on Blockchain and I don't feel threatened by it. It would be very interested to see anonymous research on users of Bitcoin mixers to see who are the people who mainly use them. It might be criminals, like you say, but it might also be people who're worried about being traceable even though they don't do anything illegal (they just don't want corporations to track their actions, push products to them and stuff like that). Do you have any research showing that it's actually only used for serious crimes?

Bitcoin mixers and coin mixers in general are only designed for criminals and are only used for criminals.

It's very sad that this forum allows ads from coin mixers. People representing them in their signatures are also supporting criminals.

This coin mixers are used to hide transactions made from deals like drugs and child pornography or any other crimes. And nothing else.

All the instructions which can be found online are literally telling you how to avoid being trace and hide your money. 

All those coin mixers are illegal only alone by the fact that they are not even a company or anything. There's no single legal address. They have no financial license. And even all the scam brokers have one.

And don't come with things like "Its also a use case for some poor guy in Iran who has to hide". That's bullshit. And you know its a lie.

Everyone knows it but many don't want to accept it. They are accepting coin mixers because they think there now some rebellious guy.

When you accept them and support them your making the world more worse.

You should not give them a chance and support someone else. Support good things.

Everyone who tries to find an contra argument will be sad because their aren't any