Topic: Why buying mining hardware IS almost always BETTER then JUST investing. (Read 4563 times)

No one is talking about "no miners".

The debate is, "buy gear now, or invest in BTC now".  The answer is, "unless you can get gear in hand tomorrow at less than $10/GH/s, you're better off investing in BTC".

If no more mining gear were ever purchased starting today, the network would remain static forever (once all existing pre-orders were filled), and BTC would be secure forever.

Yes, diversity of the network is key to bitcoin's success.  If mining becomes a centrally-located activity, with a majority of it done by very large players, the value of bitcoin may suffer since things like double-spends become easier for these players.  As long as you make back the same number of BTC a miner cost when you bought it, it's always better to mine.  Consider this scenario:

Miner ordered: BTC = $100, miner = $5000 (50BTC)
Miner delivered: BTC = $150
Miner mines for 2 months: BTC = $200.  Miner has made 50BTC ($10000).

If the miner is completely worthless (even as a curiosity) at the point that it ROIs, and will never make any more BTC after that point, then it is equivalent to buy BTC directly or mine.  If this is not the case, and the miner can be sold or mined with after ROI, mining is better.

Knowing whether any of this will work out is the key, and one has to do lots of research on power calculation, difficulty prediction, delivery dates, reliability, etc.  Mining is not for the faint of heart, nor is it for the novice.  If you want to mine, do your homework.  There will continue to be new offerings from manufacturers, and generally within a couple days of the announcement is a good time to buy if everything checks out.

I think everyone would be happy making money either way. This is viewed as a hobby in many ways which of course usually always costs money. I can see both views, it all comes down to why you are interested in bitcoin. I personally would not mind investing or buying miners however I feel the mining companies are taking advantage of the average miner. If their greed was a little less and would give miners a fair shot at coming to close to breaking even I wouldn't mind supporting the network. Keep in mind although you are supporting the network you are also supporting their greed which is why I will not invest in any expensive miners (several hundreds to thousands of dollars). If people will do this the mining companies will have to change their policy reminds me of how microsoft changed their policies after the public's outrage. The hash rate is already at an incredible amount that a temporary boycott will not affect it (especially since the difficulty is increasing at such a rapid rate). Just my 2 cents

Ya'll still missing the point.

Investing and making money is good, but if there are NO MINERS THERE IS NO NETWORK.

Mining is crucial.  You should be thanking all the people who are mining at a loss to PROTECT YOUR NETWORK THAT YOU HAVE MONEY INVESTED IN AND ARE PROFITING OFF OF.

No miners, no BTC.  Keeping BTC alive is worth more then profiting to some people.

If only one CPU in the universe had been mining from 2009 to now, the BTC supply would be ~85% of what it is now.

Just throwing this out there, but


If everyone, or even a majority, had decided to just buy instead of mining, the supply would be much less, the utility as a currency would be much less, the demand would be much less and the value would be much less. Also it would be freakin' boring.


I've gotten almost daily enjoyment out of finagling and maintaining mining hardware and software for going on six months, with less than $1000 total spent (and most of that returned and reinvested). For me it's comparable to the guys that buy and restore old cars. Sure I could have doubled my money by just buying coin six months ago and selling it today, but what fun is that? How is the network, or even the *concept* of Bitcoin in any way benefited by my doing that? I profit from someone else's work and someone else's greed and meanwhile nothing actually gets done. Not buying hardware was never even an option.

Buying hardware can be better than investing in BTC under a certain set of conditions.  Generally, these conditions are as follows:

1) Hardware must be purchased with fiat, or BTC used to purchase hardware must be repurchased immediately.  ROI must be calculated in terms of fiat.
2) Value of BTC must go down after date of purchase
3) If you sell your hardware such that (selling price + value of mined BTC) > (purchase price), then you're in the green.  If you had purchased BTC from the get go, you'd be in the red.

At this point, it's essentially impossible to find a deal on hardware that would enable you to mine more BTC than you could purchase with fiat.  So, if you think the price of BTC will increase in the future, it is absolutely better to invest in BTC.  If you think there's a reasonable chance that the price of BTC could drop, there is some probability that investing in hardware is better.

It worked for me on 5 out of 6 occasions.  I failed to meet ROI once on a BFL device I sold as a pre-order, and that was because I had paid up front with BTC and didn't repurchase the BTC.  Even my first purchase of block erupters already reached ROI, and the second batch I purchased will ROI in a few weeks.  That being said, don't expect this to work in your favor very often.

TL;DR: Buying the right hardware and selling at the right time can be advantageous (and even profitable) when faced against a drop in BTC value, but good luck having the stars align for you!

I have to admit...buying shares on CEX.io did bring me back to the fun of mining which lead to me purchasing a Avalon machine and shares from some other guys selling contracts...

If you don't have money..CEX.io (signature) is a good place to start...if you do have money cointerra, might be your best option as they will compensate you for your purchase if they deliver late...i guess in the form of more hash?

No please, you got your title wrong...  Why buying mining hardware IS almost always WORSE then JUST investing.

You pretty much nailed it there. Denial.

It is difficult for many to admit their mistakes, and they can make endless "reasons" to justify to themselves that they were right despite all evidence to the contrary.

Good luck on selling the Minirig. In the end I found out that selling the hardware at the right time after mining with it for a short time is the most profitable thing I've done in Bitcoin so far.

Not to get into grammar and all that, I slightly misread it, starting the sentence with "why" made me think of it as a question. It is indeed a statement, but if you take "why" off the front and it becomes a clearer statement.

A statement that I believe to be completely wrong. At any point in Bitcoin's brief history if you had taken the money spent on mining hardware and bought BTC instead and held it you would be better off now.

If you have an example to prove this point wrong I'm always willing to take it on board. That's not to be confused with being insecure, it is being open minded.

I am sorry if you misunderstood the title to be a question. Why is both an answer and a question. Why is it? Why it is. It was used in the form of an explanation in this case. When did this become about dumb questions? As I clearly pointed out I often have dumb ideas, but I didn't refer to dumb questions. Personally I think that a question is only seen as dumb by those unable or unwilling to put it in context. Is a question about where babies come from dumb from a child? How about a person with a medical degree and an active obgyn practice. Those unwilling are generally insecure in their own knowledge and find others a threat and their struggle a comfort. The people unable to grasp the context are usually challenged in some way mentally and have a hard time using the more complex thought process it requires.

If I have made some error in my logic with the topic or your thoughts I would genuinely appreciate it if you explain.


Again, this is just my opinion, maybe I am right, maybe not.

 Cheers.

The title of the thread "Why buying mining hardware IS almost always BETTER then JUST investing"
No I'm sad you have dumb questions.

In your analogy are you comparing the leechers to asic manufacturers? I totally agree. Generally when your customers "pre-order" a not yet existing product you are gracious as they are actually investors. It was sad to say the least to see the way the situation of pre order delays etc was handled, on all sides. The customers for pre ordering from a companies a not yet existing product then dragging the companies and its staff's reputations through a broken glass parking lot known as the forums, and the manufacturers for over promising, lack of clear time lines that were clearly adjusted as work went forward, treatment of customers etc. In all it was a cluster !@#$.  The way the customers that were funding them were treated was\is deplorable and should not be forgotten.

I am glad a few of the miners agree! I thought it was self evident.

Please give me more then that. I am just offering a point of view, perhaps I am wrong, if so tell me where I made my mistake.




Just because I work for BFL customer service doesn't make me their shill! Kidding, I do not work for BFL, or any other bitcoin\bitcoin mining related business!

What was my question I answered? Or are you just happy I have dumb opinions?

I think everyone who has coins should mine even if it's a tiny amount.  You can always solo mine and think of it as a lottery.  Bitcoin should stay decentralized otherwise it's a few pools or miners who can flip the rules on the rest like deciding to not half the rewards.  I think that was actually proposed right before the 1st halving when gpus where unprofitable and asics weren't around yet.

Hey I always say, at the end of the day there is nothing wrong with supporting the network.

But lets not forget, (for example) your always going to have those people that leech a rare torrent file & never seed it for any amount of time.

I guess the argument is diversifying mining power. If everyone invested in one mining entity,(wild example) then this one entity would have control of the network versus having big gun miners, mid tier miners and the small scale miners.

Yeah, you answered your own questions.

This is so ridiculous, I don't even know where to start.

You must be a shill for BFL.

Investing and mining is the best way to go. If you can't afford asics yet, then start mining with cex (you can check my sig). And from there save to buy the best GH/s/$ hardware. Every decentralized miner added is worth more than a datacenter made by a cooperative (if ever govt. shuts them down). The network will not be hampered that much.

Cloud mining seems more like investing then mining. Just saying.
 

You seem to be the only one who understood my point!! Haha.

As for the other comments, I emphasized breaking even\coming close because if you buy carefully you should be able to. But my main point stands, we NEED MINERS!!! Investors are nice, but wise investors mine as well as buy!!

No sales pitch for cloud mining yet?

For me, actually having the hardware to play with is the most fun part. Every coin I've gotten, bought or mined, was turned around to buy more hardware and that's yielded hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of entertainment watching things work, fiddling with configs, whatever. That's worth it to me even if nothing ROIs, and I like knowing my hashes help out the pool and the network.

Exactly.  Everything on the market right now = hardware vendor makes money, miner loses money.  There will always be people sitting on hardware and cheap electricity to "keep the network going", dogpiling more hardware on top of things and the meteoric rise of difficulty is where mining shot itself in the foot.

No please, you got this all wrong.... Investing is always BETTER!!!

Did you? He mentioned several times basing his argument on buying hardware that either breaks even of comes very close. There is no such thing currently available for sale.

DID you READ ANYTHING the OP said. It don't matter if the mining hardwar makes ROI or not with out miners there is NO bitcoin.

You can read opinions or you can try it for yourself. Go out and buy some miners. See where that takes you. If it breaks even, let me know.

At the moment there isn't anything, ANYTHING, available that will yield positive ROI (other than buying chips and building the miners yourself).

Let the market level out for the next month or two so we have a better idea of where things are going.

However it is a GOOD thing to have people losing interest in mining for a while. Forces hardware prices to come down and slows down the stratospheric difficulty for a while (I hope  )

I've read different opinions and I think many people are missing the point.

The argument about buying mining hardware being a waste of money & almost always barely breaking-even is missing one of the core concepts of bitcoin. The cost of electricity is often presented as the determining factor if a mining operation is worth the investment, or if it's better just to buy bit coins, still missing a fundamental idea behind bitcoin, and it's value. Regardless of your electric costs or even profitability I believe it's worth it as a hobby and if you have money invested I believe it's necessary.


Purchasing hardware that breaks even is a good investment especially if you're going to investing in bitcoin, the reason that it's a good investment is it will help add value to the bitcoins you purchase as well as the ones you mine. We need miners, many miners. If mining becomes something that very few people can afford to do or are not interested in doing bitcoin probably will not survive. It will become susceptible to manipulation by these few power players. Purchasing mining equipment is investment in your investment. Okay maybe that's meta-but my point is this don't forget there's more to the value of bitcoin then an exchange dollar amount. Bitcoin requires many participants to remain strong. If you choose not to mine thats ok, but if too many people choose not to, your purchased bit coins will have been a huge mistake.

Maybe just barely breaking or a slight overall loss to mine is not really a loss, as it helps ensure your investment in bitcoin gains value. Don't forget that.

I am mining at a loss, but it's been a fun experiment, and I know I am helping the value of the coins I purchased.


This is just my opinion I've got lots of dumb ones and occasionally I have a good one. I think this is a good one.

Or maybe I am just trying to make myself feel better.


Regardless, Bitcoin is not a spectator investment. Stay involved.

Cheers.

 

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