Response to 'Patata's' Comment (Below):
"Interesting. What is the cost of implementation of this technology? Will it help the individual miners? I don't think so. The large scale energy generation can only benefit mining farms which run on a large scale. Even if the technology works as shown in the video, it's not feasible for small scale miners. One can't implement their own geothermal energy generation plant.
Hello Patatas,
Yes, actually this model was made to give power back to the individual miner.
This is why I speak so much about "Decentralized Power Plants". My simplified proposal:
1.) Miners group together to OWN THE POWERPLANT. Imagine an ICO, but instead of a company raising funds, each mining operations raise funds.
2.) Distribute ownership. Miners, as a group (likely 1,000+ miners) will work together and own the entire facility.
3.) Distribute funds based off ownership. The more of the power plant you own, the more mining power you have. The power plant only mines. We can make sure no 1-person or group has control of all of the power by capping how much of the power plant each person can. No need to be greedy. These things will be 10 MW+. Plenty of power to go around.
4.) Allow liquidity. The ownership will be in the form of a Security Token, which will be tradable (first one's of this kind came out early 2019).
Topic: Why Geothermal Energy is simply better for mining (Read 140 times)
I think is is important to remember there are literally thousands of earthquakes daily, the majority of which you will not feel (have little impact on anything). The evaluation of an earthquake works on a Richter Scale, which is logarithmic such that a magnitude 2 earthquake is much different than a magnitude 3, although they both do sound scary, there isn't much harm until you get to about a magnitude 5 or larger, which is extremely rare.
Lets say that those plant of yours wont trigger out those quakes but as i have read that this is located on the ring of fire.There are really thousand of earthquakes but most likely happen onseabed.It do really give out no or less impact but since this place is on the ring of fire then there would be always the possibility of Magnitude 5 or higher quakes to happen.
I think there is a strong misconception in the public's view about earthquakes and geothermal energy.
To be clear, large earthquakes from traditional geothermal power plants is extremely rare, despite the power plants being along the Ring of Fire.
Please remember that the Geothermal industry knows that this is a problem, and potential earthquake hazards and how to handle them are mitigated in the planning phase, before the power plants are built. The hazards mentioned were not from traditional geothermal plant, but from a new geothermal technology called "Enhanced Geothermal Systems". The method was created in 2008, and those first plants started closely after in 2009. The articles cited are outdated, as this was from over 10-years, when little was known about the earthquake hazards of Enhanced Geothermal Systems. Modern day scientists know better and do not drill into faults.
To give a real world example as to how well the industry plans power plants, the Geysers Geothermal field has been around for about 70 years, and is located along the ring of fire.
Here is an article about the field:
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/why-are-there-so-many-earthquakes-geysers-area-northern-california?qt-news_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products
This is a sentence taken straight from the article, written by the U.S. Government (USGS)
"To date, the largest quake recorded at The Geysers is approximately M4.5. It is possible that a magnitude 5 could occur, but larger earthquakes are thought to be unlikely. In order for a larger earthquake to occur, it is necessary that a large fault exist. For example, the 1906 magnitude (M) 7.8 San Francisco earthquake ruptured nearly 300 miles of the San Andreas Fault. At The Geysers no such continuous fault is known to exist. Rather, there are numerous small fractures in the rock located near the many steam and injection wells."
If you don't drill on top of the fault, you should be good to go.
I think is is important to remember there are literally thousands of earthquakes daily, the majority of which you will not feel (have little impact on anything). The evaluation of an earthquake works on a Richter Scale, which is logarithmic such that a magnitude 2 earthquake is much different than a magnitude 3, although they both do sound scary, there isn't much harm until you get to about a magnitude 5 or larger, which is extremely rare.
Lets say that those plant of yours wont trigger out those quakes but as i have read that this is located on the ring of fire.There are really thousand of earthquakes but most likely happen onseabed.It do really give out no or less impact but since this place is on the ring of fire then there would be always the possibility of Magnitude 5 or higher quakes to happen.
Geothermal Plants are not known for producing greenhouse gases. Most power-plants these days are closed-loop and produce close to zero-emissions.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/geothermal/geothermal-power-plants-meeting-clean-air-standards
https://www.energy.gov/eere/geothermal/geothermal-power-plants-meeting-clean-air-standards
Most geothermal resources are along tectonic plates, or the well defined 'Ring-of-Fire'
In that case, are these plants insured against natural calamities? What is the contingency plan for, say if one of your plants triggers an earthquake or is affected by one?
This is a leading cause why geothermals aren't very popular. Generally if you screw up in any other sector, you only lose money, here you are potentially risking a large populous.
For example; Quake Threat Leads Swiss to Close Geothermal Project
Besides, what are the preventive measures planned for greenhouse emissions?
Without a doubt, the power plants will trigger earthquakes. They will most likely not be affected by earthquakes, however.
I think is is important to remember there are literally thousands of earthquakes daily, the majority of which you will not feel (have little impact on anything). The evaluation of an earthquake works on a Richter Scale, which is logarithmic such that a magnitude 2 earthquake is much different than a magnitude 3, although they both do sound scary, there isn't much harm until you get to about a magnitude 5 or larger, which is extremely rare.
In the citation you mention, the earthquake was trigged by a technique called "Enhanced Geothermal Systems".
https://www.energy.gov/eere/geothermal/how-enhanced-geothermal-system-works
In this scenario, scientists and engineers essentially create their own geothermal reservoir though "hydraulic fracking". As you can image, this causes the generation of earthquakes, but most are harmless. The leader of the Swiss project cited in your article made a big mistake of drilling directly into an active fault, which when lubricated with hydraulic fracking fluids, cause slip on the fault easier, generating more earthquakes.
These concerns can now be mitigated with advanced reservoir characterization technologies to prevent the drilling of wells into active faults.
@Kak
"Why do we need a decentralized mining operation? I know people use decentralization to prevent attacks from hackers and governments that are trying to take it down. Is this one of the motivations behind a decentralized mining operation or is this more about decentralized decision making powers?
It could also mean that decentralized mining operations might prevent a 51% attack, if the mining pools are more decentralized. Right?
Please expand a bit more on the concept and what the motivation for this was?"
Adam4Eve Response / Motivation:
1.) Utilize the high energy demand of "proof-of-work" to stimulate the development of renewable infrastructure.
2.) Allow common people access to cheap electricity to help prevent "51%" hacks in the future and move away from large institutional control of hashpower.
I will try to be as brief as possible, but please feel free to continue asking questions that are not clear. It as also great for me to hear feedback.
The last Bitcoin block is not estimated to be mined until 2140. That gives us another 120 years of continued Bitcoin mining energy demands. Cheap electricity is going to be harder to come by as time goes on. There has to be renewable energy infrastructure, and lots of it, to verify transactions for large scale crypto adoption.
We can build this infrastructure now. Geothermal works well because the energy is 24/7. Wind and Solar (if you are not grid connected) require storage units (large-scale batteries) to provide the 24/7 energy needed to maximize returns. These units very expensive, much more than geothermal. If you are grid connected, then the energy you get is almost certainly going to be from fossil fuel sources. My climate scientist friends could jump in from here....
Bitcoin mining is going to continue to be harder. Few people have access to power resources requires, leading to large centralized control of mining power. There is also cloud mining, but here you are paying for the power per kW, which performs poorly when Bitcoin is low, and those cloud mining companies fail.
What I am proposing is the pulling together of resources from the crypto community, to stimulate renewable energy adoption and helping to decentralize mining operations. Everyone gets a piece of the pie, not by cloud mining (selling the power) but by ownership. Giving the community both ownership of the resources, and distribution of Bitcoin mined, allows for these power plants (I call them special purpose vehicles) to be more resilient to Bitcoin price fluctuations. The vehicle will maximize revenue generation, and can be traded at any time by the different power plant owners thanks to new security token trading platforms that just came out in 2019. We move away from Utility tokens, and use Asset based Security tokens to give people ownership.
Example of security token platform:
https://www.tzero.com/
Example of the "Decentralized Power Plant Model" and the benefits of tokenization:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/proposal-promote-democratization-sustainable-using-jay-fortin/
Original Article:
https://www.iisd.org/library/tokenization-infrastructure-blockchain-based-solution-financing-sustainable-infrastructure
All of this stuff is pretty new, but I think it should work.
"Why do we need a decentralized mining operation? I know people use decentralization to prevent attacks from hackers and governments that are trying to take it down. Is this one of the motivations behind a decentralized mining operation or is this more about decentralized decision making powers?
It could also mean that decentralized mining operations might prevent a 51% attack, if the mining pools are more decentralized. Right?
Please expand a bit more on the concept and what the motivation for this was?"
Adam4Eve Response / Motivation:
1.) Utilize the high energy demand of "proof-of-work" to stimulate the development of renewable infrastructure.
2.) Allow common people access to cheap electricity to help prevent "51%" hacks in the future and move away from large institutional control of hashpower.
I will try to be as brief as possible, but please feel free to continue asking questions that are not clear. It as also great for me to hear feedback.
The last Bitcoin block is not estimated to be mined until 2140. That gives us another 120 years of continued Bitcoin mining energy demands. Cheap electricity is going to be harder to come by as time goes on. There has to be renewable energy infrastructure, and lots of it, to verify transactions for large scale crypto adoption.
We can build this infrastructure now. Geothermal works well because the energy is 24/7. Wind and Solar (if you are not grid connected) require storage units (large-scale batteries) to provide the 24/7 energy needed to maximize returns. These units very expensive, much more than geothermal. If you are grid connected, then the energy you get is almost certainly going to be from fossil fuel sources. My climate scientist friends could jump in from here....
Bitcoin mining is going to continue to be harder. Few people have access to power resources requires, leading to large centralized control of mining power. There is also cloud mining, but here you are paying for the power per kW, which performs poorly when Bitcoin is low, and those cloud mining companies fail.
What I am proposing is the pulling together of resources from the crypto community, to stimulate renewable energy adoption and helping to decentralize mining operations. Everyone gets a piece of the pie, not by cloud mining (selling the power) but by ownership. Giving the community both ownership of the resources, and distribution of Bitcoin mined, allows for these power plants (I call them special purpose vehicles) to be more resilient to Bitcoin price fluctuations. The vehicle will maximize revenue generation, and can be traded at any time by the different power plant owners thanks to new security token trading platforms that just came out in 2019. We move away from Utility tokens, and use Asset based Security tokens to give people ownership.
Example of security token platform:
https://www.tzero.com/
Example of the "Decentralized Power Plant Model" and the benefits of tokenization:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/proposal-promote-democratization-sustainable-using-jay-fortin/
Original Article:
https://www.iisd.org/library/tokenization-infrastructure-blockchain-based-solution-financing-sustainable-infrastructure
All of this stuff is pretty new, but I think it should work.
There are many advantages to geothermal energy. Geothermal energy is renewable energy because once water or steam is used, it can be pumped back into the ground. It is also clean energy. Geothermal power plants, unlike plants that burn fossil fuels, do not produce greenhouse gases that can be harmful to the atmosphere
Most geothermal resources are along tectonic plates, or the well defined 'Ring-of-Fire'
In that case, are these plants insured against natural calamities? What is the contingency plan for, say if one of your plants triggers an earthquake or is affected by one?
This is a leading cause why geothermals aren't very popular. Generally if you screw up in any other sector, you only lose money, here you are potentially risking a large populous.
For example; Quake Threat Leads Swiss to Close Geothermal Project
Besides, what are the preventive measures planned for greenhouse emissions?
First question,
On what location this so-called decentralized geothermal plant?
How investors can have the assurance regarding into their investment?
Wont you consider on the expense on buying miners? Dont tell me that all would be equivalent.
On what location this so-called decentralized geothermal plant?
How investors can have the assurance regarding into their investment?
If you invest and own 10% of the power plant, you will receive 10% of the profit (bitcoin mined) from the power plant.
If you contributed 10% on the powerplant build up then making automatically 10% share up on mining profits is too good to be true.Why?Wont you consider on the expense on buying miners? Dont tell me that all would be equivalent.
Most geothermal resources are along tectonic plates, or the well defined 'Ring-of-Fire'
In the U.S. this means California, Nevada, Oregon, etc..
The investors could be assured of their ownership, because it would be in the form of a 'Security' a.k.a 'tradable financial asset' as approved from the governmental entity.
The 10% example was simplified, and meant profit. You are correct, without accounting for mining equipment, racks, operation and maintenance, etc... that would be revenue. The 10% (or whatever ownership) would be in respect to net profit from the operation.
These decentralized power plants would be in the form of a 'Special Purpose Vehicle', and would have only one purpose in life:
Mine Bitcoin and pay out the coins (profit) to the owners.
Wouldn't the better solution be to simply move over to proof of stake coins instead of the outdated proof of work concept?
Only if the goal was the cheapest functional solution instead of the most secure.
Wouldn't the better solution be to simply move over to proof of stake coins instead of the outdated proof of work concept?
First question,
On what location this so-called decentralized geothermal plant?
How investors can have the assurance regarding into their investment?
Wont you consider on the expense on buying miners? Dont tell me that all would be equivalent.
On what location this so-called decentralized geothermal plant?
How investors can have the assurance regarding into their investment?
If you invest and own 10% of the power plant, you will receive 10% of the profit (bitcoin mined) from the power plant.
If you contributed 10% on the powerplant build up then making automatically 10% share up on mining profits is too good to be true.Why?Wont you consider on the expense on buying miners? Dont tell me that all would be equivalent.
Response to a question I received about geothermal infrastructure for bitcoin mining. Let's start a discussion.
Thank you for your question. The U.S. Department of Energy has a good source here showing the land use of geothermal compared to other power plants:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/geothermal/geothermal-power-plants-minimizing-land-use-and-impact
To summarize land use by acre:
a.) Geothermal: 1-8 acres per megawatt (MW)
b.) Nuclear: 5-10 acres per MW
c.) Coal: 19 acres per MW
Geothermal is not only renewable, but it also has one of the smallest surface footprints of all power generation technologies.
To give you an estimate on the installed cost of a power plant, the DOE traditionally uses approximately $2500 per installed kW in the U.S.
Therefore, a 1 MW Geothermal Power Plant will cost approximately $2.5 Million to install.
However, geothermal can produce electricity 24/7, at a high capacity factor (>90%), and has one of the lowest LCOE of all power generation technologies.
This means that so much power can be generated from a geothermal power plant, that it justifies the high upfront capital costs. However, these high upfront capital costs are why development of geothermal infrastructure has stalled, and why we are trying to get many investors in developing a “decentralized” model for geothermal power plant installation.
We will use this opportunity to clarify the offering. Right now, we are simply raising money by selling equity in our company. Your shares will increase in value as the company evaluation increases.
If you invest in the power plant development (the future security token offering), then yes, you will receive part of the Bitcoin mined. We plan on fully decentralizing ownership of the power plant by utilizing an asset-based token model. Here is an example:
If you invest and own 10% of the power plant, you will receive 10% of the profit (bitcoin mined) from the power plant.
You will also own 10% of the power plant, which you can trade to other investors on alternative token exchanges. Thus, you get back what you paid for the token, plus the additional profit from the mining operation.
It is the same argument as Renting vs. Buying a home.
Currently Bitcoin miners try to find the cheapest electricity possible for their mining operations but have no ownership of the mining infrastructure.
The model we have developed will allow individuals to own the mining infrastructure (power plants), make money from the cryptocurrency mining process, and sell their ownership at any time. Our company will generate revenue by taking a small percentage ownership (< 5%) of each power plant developed. We will also be involved with the operation and maintenance of each facility.
We believe this is the first time this decentralized power plant ownership model has been proposed.
Thank you for your question. The U.S. Department of Energy has a good source here showing the land use of geothermal compared to other power plants:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/geothermal/geothermal-power-plants-minimizing-land-use-and-impact
To summarize land use by acre:
a.) Geothermal: 1-8 acres per megawatt (MW)
b.) Nuclear: 5-10 acres per MW
c.) Coal: 19 acres per MW
Geothermal is not only renewable, but it also has one of the smallest surface footprints of all power generation technologies.
To give you an estimate on the installed cost of a power plant, the DOE traditionally uses approximately $2500 per installed kW in the U.S.
Therefore, a 1 MW Geothermal Power Plant will cost approximately $2.5 Million to install.
However, geothermal can produce electricity 24/7, at a high capacity factor (>90%), and has one of the lowest LCOE of all power generation technologies.
This means that so much power can be generated from a geothermal power plant, that it justifies the high upfront capital costs. However, these high upfront capital costs are why development of geothermal infrastructure has stalled, and why we are trying to get many investors in developing a “decentralized” model for geothermal power plant installation.
We will use this opportunity to clarify the offering. Right now, we are simply raising money by selling equity in our company. Your shares will increase in value as the company evaluation increases.
If you invest in the power plant development (the future security token offering), then yes, you will receive part of the Bitcoin mined. We plan on fully decentralizing ownership of the power plant by utilizing an asset-based token model. Here is an example:
If you invest and own 10% of the power plant, you will receive 10% of the profit (bitcoin mined) from the power plant.
You will also own 10% of the power plant, which you can trade to other investors on alternative token exchanges. Thus, you get back what you paid for the token, plus the additional profit from the mining operation.
It is the same argument as Renting vs. Buying a home.
Currently Bitcoin miners try to find the cheapest electricity possible for their mining operations but have no ownership of the mining infrastructure.
The model we have developed will allow individuals to own the mining infrastructure (power plants), make money from the cryptocurrency mining process, and sell their ownership at any time. Our company will generate revenue by taking a small percentage ownership (< 5%) of each power plant developed. We will also be involved with the operation and maintenance of each facility.
We believe this is the first time this decentralized power plant ownership model has been proposed.
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