Topic: Why has the left wing abandoned Israel? (Read 5740 times)

Ha! "many are unaware of reality there, and basing their opinions on misinformation and a lack of accurate information."

This accurately depicts you, clearly. Israel is is a beacon of light in a dark part of the world and helps the Palestinians more than anyone else, the cause of the Palestinian suffering is Hamas and their own hatred

They can ban flights just like that?   

The Obama administration also banned flights to Israel as an attempt to strong-arm Israel into agreeing to a cease fire.

i don't think politics is as simple as that. it's not just because the american public is stupid; it's because politics has obfuscated information, making the public less informed because shit is confusing. on top of that, there's so much entertainment/information being spread around that it's hard to keep abreast on all the topics, especially when you are working full time.

Its mind blowing how the idiot public in the US allow this to happen.
Its too bad that there isnt a law stating that: Every politician has to have an immediate family member in active combat on the ground, if said politician votes on supportive war initiatives.

Lets see how fast the chicken hawks in Washington would vote for war then.
Its easy to gamble with someone elses money...

there was an episode on the daily show last week talking about how john kerry was urging a ceasfire (on both sides).. yet we are stocking israel with the weapons they are using to kill palestinians. that's why the U.S. has no right in policing other countries, because we enable them after all.

On Monday Obama approved to send 225 million dollars in emergency aid to Israel.
This money is to help replenish the rockets they used in their "Iron Dome" defense system.
Do you guys think they will also use some of the money to replace rockets that they shot into Gaza to murder people?

Are you happy to see your tax dollars being spent in appropriate ways?

1. That's great, but I would suggest securing peace first and foremost, and only then looking to whether or not you're happy with the spoils. The longer that takes, the more people will die for no good reason.

2. Sorry that I had to ask, but you kind of deserved it after your answer; and you are just deflecting the argument with this answer, instead of explaining how you expect Palestinians to survive if your suggestion was implemented.

1.Many Israeli are tired of war and want peace, but they want a fair peace.

2.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive

There you go again... there is no one now that doesn't want peace, except Israel and the US.

We can go back in history and we will certainly find plenty of flaws on every side, but that won't help solve the conflict at the moment. And saying that a two state solution should be implemented with the current territory is completely ignoring what I just said about Palestinians being cut off from farmland, water, from access to education and health facilities, places of work, and even each other in some places. Do you even care about them at all?

It's a good question, but i think the only way to have peace is to be comprehensive with Israel cause now near of everybody is against them. Israel was attacked by his neighbor many time, fortunately they lose (or all the jews would be killed, for example Nasser in Egypt said "we will cut jews throat !"...). I  think they deserve what they have now and we should make a two state solution with the border reality on the ground.

And don't forget the Palestinian in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria who have their life there now and still second class citizen...

1. Sure, you have a right to your opinion, just as they have the right to theirs; but to dismiss them without even knowing why they have their position is not a logical stance, and neither is the "might makes right" approach, at least if we want any plans of a peaceful life in the region anytime in the future. Further, as I said before, the proceedings are mostly public and you have access to voting and often reasoning behind votes, so you can easily delve into it if you're interested.

2. If there is a broad understanding that foreign diplomacy/action/intervention will in fact improve the situation and lead to a deescalation of conflict, like in this situation, I see no reason for it not to happen. And yes, every minority counts, be it the Kurds, the Catalans, the Palestinians, or whomever else.

3. But the building of the wall is a conscious choice of annexing land over peace, not a step towards peace.

Further, the wall isn't even complete, so there is no telling how much more land will be taken from Palestinians. And all that assuming Israel won't continue building settlements outside the wall, for which there is no assurance, unfortunately; Israel's constant announcement of further settlements does nothing to help here. Another point that this ignores is the direct effects the wall is already having on Palestinians; at some points the wall cuts them off the farmland they've depended on so far for survival, at others from access to water sources, all of those now conveniently on the Israeli side of the wall.

You don't want a treaty that is unfair for Israel, but is this fair to the Palestinians?

Also, it should be stated that the wall is illegal under international law, especially considering Israel is the occupying power.

One must be careful to compare apples to apples in such metrics.  In this case one should, by rights, be comparing the Fatah crooks who sell their people down the river with the Egyptian military and political elite who do more or less the same thing.  Egypt is a bigger country so there are more mouths to feed both in terms of caloric input for the masses, and in terms of bribes/kickbacks to the corrupt sellouts of their respective societies.

is funny cause gaza people are richer than Egyptian 

Ah, I see!  A kinder, gentler Warsaw ghetto is being implemented in Gaza.  Nice argument you've got there.  Small wonder it isn't really flying except in some segments of Israel and the U.S.

The question should be more, why hasn't the right abandoned Israel?

1.I have the right to not take care of other country opinion ? I have the right to not consider what my government do legitimate (often a debate here) but i can't have an opinion on foreign government ? Every government in UN defend it's own interest...

2.Sorry, i believed you are the kind of people thinking "Foreign interference is always immoral". I'm fine with both (interference can be acceptable or is never acceptable) but not double-thinking. So you support foreign interference ? (I just want to know your axiomatics) I hope you support kurdish Independence too, cause every minority matter right ?  

3.I want peace too, but i don't think the fair treaty is a treaty against Israel. Israel is building a wall, so they won't go farther.

1. You don't agree with practically every country's opinion, so you attack their integrity? And you accuse me of using logical fallacies? And, "It's the powerful country opinion that matter"? Right, might makes right... I hoped people would know better by now.

2. The situation is immoral because people's lives are being denigrated and often lost in a needless bloody conflict. It doesn't matter if it is in Israel and Palestine, in South Africa, in Indonesia, in Chechnya, in Australia, or in the US with its now gone native population; it's wrong and we should do anything within our power to stop it, wherever it may happen.

3. What do you mean "find a way to defend themselves"? As I just stated, everyone else wants peace, except the US and Israel. Check it up; that information is public.

1.You seem don't understand that the UN is just a place where corrupted government who nobody give a fuck give their opinion. It's the powerful country opinion that matter.

2.What's make political interference moral here ? It's immoral only when it come from the west ? Double-thinking no ?

3.Wait and see, i hope they will find a way to defend themselves.

1. You might not like the fact that nearly everyone supports a return to the 1967 borders and a peaceful resolution to the conflict, or agree with the reasons that lead to it, but that doesn't make their conclusions invalid; and more to the point, the truth is if both sides are unable to reach a peaceful conclusion by themselves, someone has to step in. I mean, what's the alternative? The conflict continuing until there are no Palestinians left, and Israel takes over everything?

2. The Israelis apparently weren't though, because they quickly caved in to US demands that they stand down.

1.This isn't an argument, even an Argument from authority logical fallacy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

2.I know they tried, they wanted to show they can have other ally than USA. Chinese seem fine with Israel.

Have you looked at the map recently? How much more land does Israel want?

In relation to a return to the 1967 borders, you do realize the only countries currently opposing it are pretty much just Israel and the United States, right? The overwhelming majority of the other countries see this as being a fair deal. In fact, UN resolutions either calling for a return to 1967 borders, for Israel to stop the expansion of settlements, or condemning Israel for its use of violence are frequent, and they get something along the lines of about 150 nations in favor of the resolution, 3 or 4 against and a few abstentions.

And by the way, aid or no aid, Israel won't sell their weapons to the Chinese; they tried before and the US made them step back and publicly apologize for it. They, as many others unfortunately, don't dare piss off the US, because they know all too well the likely consequences of any such action.

Hi,

I know many Arabs and they are great but when they talk about politics they always label them as "victim". I think they must moderate there opinion and try to make peace with Israel and give them more land than in the 1967 treaty. It's not fair for Arabs to ask for the 1967 border cause they preferred war than the treaty and they have lose. If USA don't cooperate with Israel and Israel sell American weapon technology to the Chinese would be fun 

Can safely say Palestinians are regarded as un-human by most of the MSM


(Tariq Khdeir, 15, of Tampa, Florida, alleged to be the person  seen in two different videos, laying passively on the ground as two Israeli Border Police officers punch and kick him before carrying his unconscious body away)

Maybe stuff like this is one reason why people are increasingly wary of Israel: "US ‘profoundly troubled’ by brutal beating of Palestine teen who turned out to be American" (http://rt.com/usa/170692-us-palestinian-israel-brutal-beating/)


And as mentioned in the article, the sad part is this wouldn't even hit the news if it turned out that he was just another Palestinian boy. If you're American, keep in mind you're helping this stuff happen on a regular basis to Palestinians.

The article saying he was mentally handicapped sounds like a cheap excuse for what he was actually doing,along with the site being Gazan,i have a good reason to doubt this artice.

Dunno about your logic but an angry mob "Protesting" by throwing rocks,molotovs,and other kinds of improvised arms seems like a threat to me,and if i was a soldier it would be my duty to retaliate.
whether  this "no protesting" law exists or not the Palestinian don't really seem to care about it,which makes the law irrelevant.

You dont seem to know the diffrence between a riot and a protest,look it up.


Fighting a tank with a stick when you can simply stay home and live your life,and as a result getting killed,is not courage,is stupidity. why should i admire stupidity? Dont want the occupying force to disturb your life? dont kidnap children.
Of course you can resist the occupier,but killing his children even though a form of resistance will likely get you in more trouble,as death only brings more death.

Um you brought the Holocaust comparison up,not me  

Well,it worked for the European colonists in America,for the Turks in Cyprus,For the Russians in Crimea,for the Muslims in the Balkans,for the Europeans in Australia,shall i go on?

Explain how the Palestininan population in Israel and the West Bank keeps growing in spite of the so called ethnic cleansing.

Tell more more about how the Israeli-Palestininan conflict drastically effects your life in Canada/Europe/Wherever you live. (Assuming you're not Palestinian)
And if it is that fact that a few western states give some support for Israel,im pretty sure 70%+ of the earth's population will gladly sell their soul to Israel to have the same quality of life that western leftists have

Left is easily manipulated and cajoled with power and attention. The so-called 'progressives' of today are not political idealists or even amateur party players of political scene. They are weak minded, insecure and ultimately infantile bastard children of the moral and cultural ignorance of the 60s that masqueraded as 'progress' and 'liberalism'.

Liberalism has been subverted by racist outsiders and ethnic minorities with racial inclinations that make KKK look rational in comparison. I speak from a personal experience of being born into such an environment, and at distant time in the past in my youth, shamelessly preaching such racial ignorance of so called 'oppressed' minority as 'justice' and 'equality'.

I have also lived for the better part of my life outside of 1st world nations, and have seen and felt the real facts about oppression and racism.

There is no black, brown, yellow or shit or piss around 1st world nations that have any right to bitch and moan about injustices in today's society. They have not the slightest idea what it means to face real oppression. All they are doing is trying manipulate and cajole the guilt and moral standards of 1st world nations to attempt a power grab and manipulate others.

Liberalism has always been prone to walking down the wide open road of seemingly 'righteous' path which is nothing more than shallow self-gratification. As seemingly 'convincing' mouths from middle east or palestine have begun to try and manipulate the guilt and moral standards of others to their own benefit have begun to reach out to 1st world, more and more weak-willed and weak minded children are becoming confused about themselves and their standards.

The fact that arab and 'palestinian' racists who have enslaved and butchered hundreds of millions across the world (ironically some of the poorest locations in the world today) will try to subvert the idealism and naivete of the 1st world 'liberals' should be glaringly obvious.

Muslims and their ilk have always bowed down to one rule: brutality, rape, and violation. They are meek as a prostitute with legs wide open against people who display strength and hatred, yet are spineless enough to think they can take advantage once they 'believe' someone is weaker than they. They also have a kind of racially motivated ego that attempts to take advantage of naive 'rationalism' of liberals today - that is, there is no such thing as rationalism but only reasoning after the fact. You can't reason away racism or racial arrogance any more than you can reason away cancer or adolescent hell raising.

In short, people are too naive and are being manipulated by those who (for now) have stronger motivation to be vocal and arrogant in what they want to believe in, and facts or reasons be damned. Only force and stronger brutality is the real rational answer to these problems.

Harden the fuck up kids.

A very similar account of this incident appeared in numerous sources, including Israeli ones. This just happened to be the first source I found. But as I said, the details of this particular incident are not relevant - I agreed to assume, for the sake of argument, that all those Palestinians died during demonstrations.




Heh, you strike me as one of those Israelis who lives 20 minutes away from the West Bank but has never stepped foot there. It takes a special type of cognitive dissonance to defend Israel's violent oppression of Palestinian protests, and at the same time staunchly refuse to accept the fact that Israel restricts the Palestinian right of protest 
And the funniest part is that your "evidence" is pictures of Palestinians protesting... I never said that they don't. In fact, I specifically said that they do... I also said that they are violently subdued by the Israeli army. Why don't you take another look at your own pictures, and tell me how many of them portray Israeli soldiers violently suppressing protesters. Your "simple google search" is evidence of my point much more than it is of yours.

As for the facts, I'd hate to burst your bubble but all Palestinian protest is indeed illegal by military decree (as I suspect you speak Hebrew, here's a couple of sources for you: Wikipedia, B'Tselem). This decree was given by the IDF immediately after the West Bank was occupied in 1967, and it strongly prohibits any kind of protest, including peaceful demonstration, under punishment of up to 10 years in prison. It is an illegal decree according to international law, which protects the right of protest in occupied territories, and it does not, of course, apply to Jews, even if they are protesting inside the West Bank.




Great, you win the 2014 Academy Award for cherry-picking pictures from Google Images. I'm so proud.

As someone who has actually been to quite a few demonstrations, including in Palestine, let me tell you this: I would love to see the faces of those students in Montreal when they encounter the Israeli border police.
The difference between your pictures is that in the first ones, no one is shooting at the protesters. One wonders why you think "replying" is necessary at all, much less justified.




Again with this strange logic of yours... So you agree they should have the right to protest, but you think they should "face the consequences" of the fact that Israel is much stronger?
Obviously, they do face the consequences. They get shot. If anything, that means you should respect their courage. But instead you use it as justification.
Please explain to me why the fact that Israel is stronger justifies the use of force against the occupied population. Are you advocating some kind of social Darwinism, where the weak get beaten by the strong and that's okay because it's the natural order of things?




Not only is none of that even remotely true, it's also entirely irrelevant to what I said.




I actually completely agree with you here, and I never said otherwise.

Your point does raise some interesting questions though. If we agree that people born in settlements are not guilty for the crimes of their parents, does that mean that any act of ethnic cleansing, no matter how horrific, can just be whitewashed by waiting a few decades? Certainly, the ethnic cleansing of 1948 was whitewashed to oblivion and made entirely irreversible by the passing of time. If this is the case, one can only conclude that the Palestinian struggle for liberation bears even greater urgency.

I wouldnt consider a Gazan site as a balanced source. I wouldnt be surprised if that "handicapped" guy was not actually handicapped,did you real the article? wth was a handicapped dude doing outside in 3:30 during an army raid? Some stuff in the article sound very doubtful. (inb4 im accused of being a zionist slave)
From the article " It should be mentioned that the Israeli forces called this campaign “Cleaning the Stables.”" This info is incorrect. i would doubt every word in this article.



Source? A simple google search proves that statement is incorrect.

https://www.google.co.il/search?q=protest+in+west+bank&client=firefox-beta&hs=Vrj&rls=org.mozilla:he:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ef2yU77vIOzT7AbNjoGgCg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=943

This is a protest: http://wpmedia.news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/montreal_student_demo-1.jpg
http://assets.survivalinternational.org/pictures/1397/jumma-protest_screen.jpg

This is a riot: http://muslimvillage.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/palestinian_riot_01.jpg
http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2014/04/F140404IR02-e1396635971281.jpg

Can you spot the diffrence? If so,the latter one is what a Palestinian riot protest looks like. If this is how it looks like,id say replying with rubber bullets,live if necessary,is justified.

So if you say that Palestininans can and should riot protest,(I,agree it is their right to protest) dont you think they should also be able to face the consequences of fighting a much stronger enemy?



Bad comprasion. the Jews were gassed/murdered systematically,with the sole purpose of eliminating Jews from Europe in a short timespan. Dont think you can say that Israel is trying to acheive the same goal with the Palestinians,even if they do,theyr'e realy bad at it. http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Graph_2.jpg

 The Jews in the Warsaw uprising had 2 choices,Rebel and pray for that 1% you have to escape,or die in a gas chamber. The Palestinians on the other hand,were offered peace numerous times,they can escape to neighboring Arab states(which they did,and BTW their fellow Arab states dont like this idea so much,see "Black September in Jordan") Or simply not practice terrorism.
I dont think the Jews kidnapped German children and shot rockets on German cities.


Were thoose 3 teenagers responisble for the Jewish immigartion into Palestine in the late 18th centruy and later? I dont think so.
However you define them,they were born,raised and lived in the West Bank,they can call it their home as much as the Palestinians can.
The 3 teenagers were NOT combatants,they did not practice in combat activity,therefore,they are illegal to target under international law. The fact that Israel did X and Y whether justifiable or not,doesn't justify the murder of the teens.

Your ability to parrot back the propaganda you heard from the MSM is truly adorable.

In fact, most of the Palestinians I mentioned were not killed during protests. A few died in their homes; the mentally-handicapped man I mentioned was literally walking down the street minding his own business, when soldiers who were raiding a nearby house yelled at him to stop. He did not immediately respond, so they shot him 4 times (link).

But the details don't really matter. I'm sure you didn't bother to examine any details about any of the deaths mentioned before you responded - you just assumed they must have been "rioting" if the IDF shot them. The real problem is not in the details, but in the substance of the propaganda you're repeating. The sad part is, you never bothered to take a minute and really think about the meaning of what you're parroting. So let's deconstruct it together.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you're absolutely right and all those Palestinians were killed during protests. Surely, many have died this way in the past, so this would not be surprising.
You say that they are "NOT innocent", because they were "RIOTING". So let's examine what that means.
Palestinians living in the West Bank, who have been under military occupation for 47 years, have their village raided yet again, by hundreds of heavily armed soldiers appearing in the middle of the night. They protest this loudly; some of them even throw stones at the armoured bulletproof jeeps. The jeeps are not even scratched, and neither, of course, are the soldiers. Nevertheless, this protest is illegal and the soldiers respond with rubber-coated bullets as well as live ammunition (in case you didn't know, any protest by Palestinians anywhere in the West Bank is illegal by military decree. Jews can protest wherever they wish, of course, and military decrees don't apply to them anyway). Dozens of Palestinians are injured, maybe one or two die.
So what you're saying is this: Palestinians who apply the human right of protest against a heavily armed foreign occupier, in violation of that occupier's laws and decrees, are now considered "NOT innocent", and therefore it is perfectly justified to kill them. If they were "random kids playing ball" that would be wrong, but if they are protesting against the occupation that is making their lives miserable, murdering them is absolutely legitimate (as an aside, I could find maybe three dozen examples of Palestinian kids being killed by soldiers when they really were just "playing ball", but I doubt that would convince you of anything).
Think about that a bit.

You also say that "rioting" is "not the best idea ever,especially when you want to return home without harm".
You are absolutely right about that. Protesting is a very dangerous proposition for a Palestinian, often deadly. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. Quite the opposite. Protest and popular struggle are the only possible recourse of the oppressed. I have nothing but respect and admiration towards the bravery of those who dare to protest against such absurdly superior force.
But this, again, is besides the point. How do you relate the fact that protesting is dangerous, with the protesters being "not innocent"? Is the fact that they took a risk for their freedom also a justification of their murder? The Jews who rebelled in the Warsaw ghetto in 1943 knew they would probably be wiped out within days; does that knowledge mean it was okay for the Nazis to kill them all? 

As for the 3 Israeli teenagers, they were not just "Jewish at the wrong place in the wrong time". They were settlers, forceful colonizers of Palestinian lands. They chose to be in a place that is, in an ethical as well as a practical sense, totally wrong. I'm not saying that fact justifies their murder, but you have to admit they also took a calculated risk. They knew the settlements are a dangerous place, and the probability of getting kidnapped while hitchhiking there is much higher than inside Israel, and yet they chose to be there.
Unlike the Palestinians though, they were not taking this risk for their freedom. They had many other options. They could live anywhere in Israel except the settlements. They wanted to steal Palestinian land, they wanted to take part in the oppression. It is them who truly were "not innocent" in all this.

The Palestinians that were killed were NOT innocent,they were throwing rocks on armed soldiers and were RIOTING,not the best idea ever,especially when you want to return home without harm. They werent some random kids playing ball. On the other hand,the 3 Israeli teenagers were just hitchhiking,they got kidnapped and murdered just for being Jewish at the wrong place in the wrong time.

Here you go: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/27/world/meast/gaza-israeli-tank-fire/index.html "2 Palestininas dead from Israeli fire"
CNN reporting about Palestinians dead?!?!? Impossible!! must be some crazy zionazi jewish consipracy to eliminate polar bears!!!111 /s

And maybe that has something to do with the fact that Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world, while Palestinians are helpless civilians living under occupation for three generations, and the only thing they can possibly do to lash back is get their hands on a gun and kill the first Israeli they see before the army gets them...



The very notion of "Terrorism" was invented by empires to justify their violence against occupied civilian populations.
As your comment demonstrates so nicely, empires try very hard to create a distinction between two types of violence - legitimate violence and non-legitimate violence. The organized, large-scale violence of the empire against the populace, which is always far more deadly, is deemed a legitimate, necessary attempt to maintain order and security. The small-scale, scattered, unorganized violence of the weak populace against the occupying empire is called "terrorism" and portrayed as barbaric and indiscriminate.

Such has been the nature of empires since the dawn of history. Even the Roman empire tried to paint provincial rebellions as barbaric (which is exactly where the word barbarian comes from).

The truth is that organized imperial violence is always more cruel, as well as much more lethal. But it has been my experience that citizens of empires are simply incapable of grasping this truth. To westerners, the illusion that their armies are involved in some kind of noble, almost benevolent pursuit of security, stability and order is too deeply entrenched. I assure you, if you spend some time living under Israeli or American occupation, you will also start thinking of "terrorist acts" as small examples of brave people who's spirit will not be crushed, making a futile but noble attempt to fight back against the horror of their everyday lives.

Maybe it's just that, in the Israeli's case, killing civilians is accidental (and Hamas has been known to use their own civilian population as hostages in an attempt to look good to the media when civilians inevitably get killed), but when Palestinians kill Israeli civilians, it's usually quite cold-blooded and deliberate.

Don't think Israel has been abandoned by the left, more likely that progressives have had enough of crazy zionists like Bibi.

They call it collateral damage when Palestinians are killed and terrorism when the Israelis are attacked. No double standands, honest!

Is that... truth??? Careful now... There is no room for truth in a discussion about Israel...
Truth has the remarkable quality of always being antisemitic.





Nice job finding this article! Fortunately, all the mainstream media all over the world made it easier for you by plastering it all over the front pages.

Humans are beasts... Indeed.

Now please find the CNN article about the 9 Palestinians that Israel killed in the two weeks since those 3 Israeli teenagers were kidnapped.
You know, those 9 Palestinians, one of whom was 13 years old, one was 16 years old and a third was a mentally-challenged adult, all of whom were murdered in cold blood by Israeli soldiers in the last two weeks alone.

What??? There is no CNN article about the 9 Palestinians killed by Israel in the last two weeks? And there isn't one about the dozens of other Palestinians killed by Israelis since the beginning of this year alone? What a shock!!! One could almost imagine the western MSM is biased!

i'm not very well-versed on the subject, but it seems like israel has kind of bullied palestine into pulling these terrorist tactics. i'm not condoning any of it, but they probably feel they have been pushed far enough that extremism is the only way they can respond.

I think a lot of the problem is that Israel is willing to actually do some weeding out of the extremists on the Palestinian side and the left has become a crowd of bleeding-heart types that thinks Israel needs to let up when there are frequent rocket attacks coming out of Palestine. Yes, Israel has blood on her hands, but every time Palestine pulls stunts by kidnapping and murdering teenagers who are just out on a hike, it's obvious that Palestinian terrorists have it coming a lot of the time.

I'm fed up with Israel. They seem to forget that our support ends where our mutual interests diverge. They want support for their Palestinian problem while at the same time stealing land from Palestinians. Forget it. We should not broker a deal until they stop this illegal action AND return the land that was taken. 

Something newsworthy: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/30/world/meast/israel-missing-teenagers/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Palestinian terrorists killed 3 Israeli teeangers.. humans are beasts..

Just google "Israel bus bombing images",Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel,Passover massacre,terror atacks on Israel,Israel bus bombing,etc

really,stop trying to make the Palestinians the only victim in this conflict,both sides have suffered.

So many anti-Semites ganging up on poor, pure Israel, right? Everyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite, hmmm?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe we're not the problem, but rather thee, who can see no evil when it comes to Israel?

the only part of the Israel situation that is simple is your silly conception of it. Don't get mad at me because I have a better understanding

This war between Palestine and Israel will never end until, both sides get tired of seeing their children die. How many years has the U.S. tried to broker a deal between them? It just isn't going to happen. They must learn to live together or die together. Personally, the U.S. has spent far too much time and money on Israel. Unfortunately, we have created a monster. But that "monster" is our ally. So now what?

I would like to see us disconnect from the whole region. Let them solve their own problems.

My issue with it is that we (the US) have worked so hard to tip the scales for the Israelis, that they have not only no sense of urgency, but not even an inclination toward being willing to make any compromise toward peace. They are like the yappy little dog that fiercely barks at "intruders" while standing behind the legs of their human.

First of all, the Israelis are very aware of their own past history and specifically what happens when they put themselves at the mercy of other nations and without their own homeland or their own defense forces. They may flourish for a brief period but almost inevitably, they are made scapegoats for one reason or another and  too many times, are persecuted, made second-class citizens, driven off and sometimes, far worse. The Jews do have their own history of persecution and not just by one particular group. I seriously doubt most Jews would want to tempt fate the second time around.

Secondly, the Jewish religious aspect has already been mentioned, those Jews will never leave.

Thirdly, the political affiliation between the US and Israel. The US may do business with these Muslim countries in the Middle East but I seriously doubt our government looks upon these Muslim countries as real allies when push comes to shove, far too many religious hardliners, instability around every corner and the general antithesis between Islam and Christianity. Playing the odds, our government most likely sees Israel as the safer bet between the two factions.

As for the left-wing not supporting the State of Israel, these folks are generally much more concerned with domestic issues than foreign policy, they probably support a two-State solution for humanitarian reasons, it's a dead-end street.

The Jews aren't going anywhere and either are the Pals. They have to learn to live together or continue to die. When they finally get sick of burying their children they will make peace. Its as simple as that.

No problemo, I welcome any and all..........just don't bring any ideas intent on selfish changing of America. Throw your Zionist crap in the dumpster before getting on the plane. Why, some fools may ask..............

If anyone would like to begin to understand, here is a piece I just ran across that may spark some thought. Keep in mind that the U.S. is party to all this

In Case You Missed It
The Zionist Plan for the Middle East
Translated and edited by Israel Shahak
The plan operates on two essential premises. To survive, Israel must 1) become an imperial regional power, and 2) must effect the division of the whole area into small states by the dissolution of all existing Arab states.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33220.htm

The Israelis keep appropriating Palestinian territory.  America doesn't demand a reason why, so they continue apace.
Basically they have pushed all Palestinians into the Gaza strip and a few other ghettos (isn't that an ironic term to use here!). When  they feel like it they bomb the snot out of it and nobody takes much notice.  -  I don't know where zolace gets the idea that the liberal media condemn them, they don't.

Just google "Gaza bombing images".

As I said in an earlier post, the Israeli Jews are, and have been for some time, treating Palestinians as shabbily as Europeans a few centuries ago treated their forefathers, including an approach only a little less harsh than the holocaust.

yah big ole drama queen. If you think for a second that people are going to agree with you that Israel is the anti-Christ and the Pals innocent shepherds, my guess is that you're having hallucinations. Both sides have brought this upon themselves. since I'm the one suggesting the only practical solution: dissolving the state of Israel.

Do you have any objection to welcoming emigrating Israelis with immediate citizenship and generous resettlement packages?

the entire fucking world is tired of the U.S. giving Israel CarteBlanche protection to terrorize and murder a basically unarmed(in comparison) indigenous population. "enough blame on both sides" who and what is that ludicrous statement for? I'll give you the benefit of doubt that it is little more than part of your little mind game you like to indulge in.

If you want peace, then open the crossings to Gaza and the villages all over the West Bank, put the guns in storage and move back to the 67 border lines and institute a true democratic governance. You can be as tired, as you want to be, but the fact remains that the Zionist right wing leaders  have created this atmosphere, and if they want peace it will be up to them to do the right thing. When you have all the guns it behooves you to behave. If the U.S. were to do the right thing, then they could walk in and demand the action necessary to facilitate a peaceful resolution. Again, it boils down to Israel's refusal to take the high road again, and again, and again. They do not want peace, they want the land, they want to realize their 'Greater Israel'

It most certainly is. You know as well as I what would happen if the US just walked away from Israel--you'd leave Israel NO choice but to exercise her military might against any potential threat, which would lead to an increased spiral of violence. You know that as well as I. So when you suggest just "cutting them off", knowing that, how can you say you're not desirous of more bloodshed?

As for who is more responsible or the criminals, I, and frankly the entire fucking world, are tired of that. There's enough blame on both sides to last the next millenium--just too many weapons for them to EXIST for the next millenium. This has nothing to do with "Jews and Muslims" "Arabs and Israelis", it has to do with too many monkeys fighting over too few resources. Remove the Israelis and that fighting is likely to continue to a certain degree, but it will be between various Palestinian factions, and will not be as suicidally genocidal as it will be if each aims and fires its deadliest weapons at the other.

I say we make everyone wander around blindfolded and screw the first person they bump into for a couple nights every year. You know, a variation on the cockroach approach. They could even make it part of their ritual beliefs. Problem solved. Three generations, tops.

That's not fair or accurate, I have no desire to see more bloodshed anywhere. Israel is the occupier and oppressor here sana. Israel is the one committing a slow steady genocide against the Arab population. Just take the Gaza 2009 massacre, it was horror unmitigated crime against humanity. I'm sorry if I have no sympathy for the folks responsible. There are consequences for actions, and if you're so worried that the whole world would come down on Israel, well I guess they should have been a little more diplomatic and humane from the start instead of attacking, murdering, destroying and stealing..............all while oppressing the Arabs to the extreme.

It's too late for your MMQ theatrics. Israel does not deserve anyone's support or approval. The government of Israel is a terrorist entity. To be a prime minister even, you need to have terrorist credentials man! Your ideas are pipe dreams now, it has gone way to far.

Rigon of course you wouldn't, Because there's nothing you'd like better than to see Israel surrounded by enemies out to destroy her and without a friend in the world. You know as well as I would the end result would be. Why do you think I said what I said above?

Long and short, I'm trying to stop bloodshed, Easy, to find a way out of the spiral path to hell both peoples are on right now, and figure out a way to relieve--NOT increase--the pressures in the area. Aside of my virtuous intentions, of course, there is also the reality that the US cannot afford a charnel house in the area, not, at least, until we are off Mideast oil.

Sana, what makes you think we need to provide a solution for either of their existence? I would propose that we cut Israel free and stop spending billions of tax dollars to support their criminal activities. Leave them to their wants..........

Israel has fallen into the hands of the rightwing. Why would you expect me to support the sort of behavior that goes on in Israel?  countenance the sort of politics that so many religious parties in Israel are imposing not only on Palestinians, but on Israelis themselves? Because of Israel's Parliamentary sytem, the minority religious parties wield a disproportionate power in their ability to make or break a coalition since none of the major parties wins outright majorities. And they wield that power with a vengeance reminiscent of their OT Jehovah. Their behavior in office is akin to imposition of Islamic sharia-law, and they are asking the same sort of authority in Israel that the mullahs enjoy in Iran.

I understand why so many of the rightwingers support Israel--they need the Red Cow found (hence the attempts at breeding the same by the Texan rancher), so they can build the Third Temple, because not until the Third Temple is built and destroyed can Christ return. So they certainly don't mind the repressive theocracy that the extremist Jewish religious parties are imposing. How you can justify it, though, is beyond me.

Nor does your pipe dream of the two peoples living together have the chance of a snowball in hell. Resources are too scarce, Palestinian birthrates too high, Israel can't afford either a unitary state or a two state solution.

My solution is best--by now it should be evident to you that I'm almost always right, and I am in this situation too. Open emigration, immediate citizenship and generous resettlement packages to any Israelis who wish to leave Israel and raise their children in peace and quiet. The dissolution of the state of Israel and its replacement by an autonomous Jewish territory for the small portion of Israelis who choose to remain, guaranteed by the UN and, if necessary, US power.

then if your interest is piqued maybe you'll read another one, and then maybe you'll realize why most of the world looks down on Israel's behavior. Of course this is only if you are truly interested in learning more than the pro Israel propaganda we get in the msm here.
I criticize false declarations and try to put real rebuttals out. Not opinions, facts

Jews were, on the whole, better treated in the Middle East than their coreligionists were in Europe.
Modern Jews in Israel, on the whole, act towards Palestinians in the same way Europeans did to their forefathers.
In other words, Jews may have left Europe but their racist/theological attitudes have remained European.

As usual if anyone dares to disagree with "the truth will set you free"

stories are sometimes invented to make the Palestinians look bad, and countless Israeli crimes are swept under the rug or flatly denied if they happen to get out.

You could well be right sana but it seems to me the press is very quick to advertise Israeli attacks and slow to report Palestinian attacks. Its like those Israel haters on the boards who put up endless hostile reports on Israelis behavior and never mention the Pals at all.

But that's just it, zolace - more than half of the settlers of Israel weren't returning home, but were gathering there from elsewhere. I just figured that giving them a place to live that was fertile and more importantly, comparatively safe, would have been a better idea.And I totally disagree with you that only the atrocities committed by Israel were publicized. We hear about terrorist bombs and mortar attacks all the time; no one's holding back that news.
 

I agree there have been terrible atrocities but usually we seem to hear only about the ones that Israel have committed. We hear very little about the Palestinians crimes. Expecting hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews to go settle in Sicily doesn't make much sense to me. People want to go home and not some strange island most of them have never visited. The two peoples both have history in the same area and will have to find a way to live together.

 I don't personally support either side in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Neither side has historically comported themselves very well. It's actually our fault, you know - not just America, but all those who partook in the decision to set the borders in the middle east. The funny thing is, it didn't even really start after WWII - it goes back farther than that, when we created countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria after WWI. But when we decided (and I do think it was a good thing) to create a homeland for the Jews after the Holocaust, we should not have allowed its creation there. I know, that's the place they see as the "promised land" from their scriptures. But anyone should have been able to see that this was going to result in perpetual conflict. We fought WWII against the Germans, the Italians and the Japanese. My feeling is that the Jews should have been given their homeland carved from one of them. I usually suggest Sicily, because it's an island, with natural borders. Plunking them down in the middle of their historic enemies really doesn't seem to me to have been prudent, and the result should have been very predictable. As far as the conflict today, like I said, neither side has comported themselves well. Both are guilty of atrocities and of intransigence. We've attempted how many times to broker a deal? And neither side seems willing to truly accept the need to compromise. The real problem now is that we can't even walk away and just let them settle it, as we should, because Israel is a nuclear power. So if they lost, those weapons would fall into the hands of people who likely would do us harm. You ask "why has the left abandoned the Jewish state?" Well, the answer is simple - because the Jewish state has made themselves indefensible too many times by their own actions - like bombing whole neighborhoods to get one terrorist who MAY be taking refuge somewhere in there. The Palestinian authorities don't do enough to combat terrorism, and the Israelis react too harshly to it. And I see no end in sight.

It's worth note (and rarely mentioned in the Western media) that Crimea was effectively Russian until 1954 when Kruschev was on some vodka binge and sort of gave it over to Ukraine.  Of course it was a fairly meaningless handjob since Ukraine was part of the USSR.  But this kind of explains why a popular vote went easily to Russian Federation.  That's the direction where the native population's affiliations tend to lay.

The contrast between the post WW-II experiences of Crimea and of Palestine (and the people within) could not be more stark.

The US also funds Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups in the Middle East. Big deal.

US has been good at one thing. To put nations in a situation that they can be manipulated to do their dirty work.

Some nations even thank US for their kind "assistance".

Israel has a government which is very independent of control from the U.S.  It is more than fair to question how independent our government is of the desires and aspirations of the government in Israel which has been led by right-wing and strongly Zionist factions for some time now.  There is very little that Israel wishes that we do not provide as far as I can tell, and we are very often their sole source of support and backing in the U.N. when they are called to task for one transgression or another.  Using our military power to crush some of their few remaining enemies is about the only thing we've not yet done for them, and the blowback from doing Iran (and public sentiment against doing Syria) are such that it would be nearly impossible for us to dance to their tunes here.

Israel obtains unfiltered intelligence feeds with data about U.S. citizens as we've learned from Snowden.  They even have explicit authorization to keep data on U.S. citizens for a period of time (minus U.S. lawmakers via a non-binding agreement) but what they do with the data is anyone's guess.

Israel can also execute U.S. citizens on humanitarian vessels in international waters and all of the leaderships of our government, and with almost no exceptions all of our mainstream media will studiously look the other way.  I'm talking about the 2010 'freedom flotilla' incident, not the 1967 USS Liberty incident.

"Foreign aid is taking money from poor people in rich countries and giving it to rich people in poor countries." - Ron Paul, perhaps the one few quotations from him I can agree with.

That being said 'foreign aid' is a bribe and bribes are common place in empires.  The British Empire had every African and Indian Chieftain / Prince on its' payroll.  Best way to stop insurrections is to simply give their leaders a few shiny toys and privileges, and they'll keep their minions under control.    


  American foreign aid is no different the than old tactics associated with empires.

The money is not being handed out freely. In case you do not know, the country is a US off-shore military platform and it is being used to watch over middle eastern countries.

Which is about 3.1 billion dollars too much.
Its insane a country with 17 trillion in debt, hands out foreign aid like candy.

+1

This idea that "the Left" has abandoned Israel is about as out of touch with reality as one could get.

Firstly, I would say that back in the 80's' and 90's left-wing negative feelings toward Israel and that countries actions were much stronger than they are now.  NPR (National Public Radio) is a huge source of influence on the more affluent on the left.  They did an abrupt about face on all things Israel in the early part of this century and it has had a very noticeable impact on many of my friends.  Or something has.

My personal beef is with Zionism both as a ideology and as a practice.  This is not the same thing as dislike of either Israel or Jews, but I can understand how it could be read that way.

There are ethnic Jews who share my feelings about Zionism.  Like the holocaust survivor who was part of the Free Gaza Movement flotilla and her family in pre-WWII times.  There are also a lot of Zionists who are not ethnic Jews.

No winners in this conflict.

We didn't start the fire,
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning.
We didn't start the fire,
But when we are gone
It will still burn on, and on, and on, and on.

The Palestinians commit many war crimes as well,they are no angels.

When did Democrats abandon Israel? That's pretty much the only bipartisan issue in congress

Israel still receives 3.1 billion dollars in foreign aid yearly. So where exactly is the abandonment? Seems more like extreme sympathizer and supporter

Muslim is not a religion of peace.

Don't forget all the neighboring countries of Israel tried to destroy it in the 50's. Should they succeed in invading it, most of Israeli citizens there would most likely be slaughtered in a horrible way.

Now that the aggressors failed the invasion and got weaken in the process, people are feeling sorry for Israel neighboring countries? Some people need to re-examine their head.

 

be careful when you say that though, you could easily be labelled an anti-semite.

I would only add that supporting the crimes against humanity that Israel commits on a daily and global regularity is unacceptable to most thinking people everywhere. Of course this would necessitate being aware of what is going on..... many are unaware of reality there, and basing their opinions on misinformation and a lack of accurate information.

I guess i am not aware that liberals have turned against Israel.

I have a distinct dislike for the treatment of ordinary Palestanians by Israeli's and an equal distaste for the terrorism against Israel.

I do object to the blind American/Israeli supporters who can find no fault with Israel.

The more I learn about this conflict the more I think that frankly it will never end. Someone will have to win for it to end and that will be ugly. There is way too much propaganda on both sides.

No he didnt. why? because he dosent exist.


"Crimes against humanity" Such as? Saying Israel commits Crimes against humanity is propaganda itself.


OP,the left abandoned Israel because leftists tend to side with the weaker side,aka Palestinians. And ofc the regular reason of racism.

This is probably right, although I wouldn't call it misinformation, I call it propaganda.

I would only add that supporting the crimes against humanity that Israel commits on a daily and global regularity is unacceptable to most thinking people everywhere.

Of course this would necessitate being aware of what is going on..... many are unaware of reality there, and basing their opinions on misinformation and a lack of accurate information.

I'm not a democrat or a progressive. I'm a liberal. What have labels to do with it?

Really it is kind of simple… The left wing used to be Democrats… Now they are progressives, they are not the same. Democrats helped people, progressives are full of hate.

Everyone abandons Israel at some point, even god abandoned it ages ago.

At one time it seemed as most liberals supported Israel. Now many of them seem to despise her and have great sympathy for the Palestinians. I have said many time that there is plenty of blame to go around in that part of the world. No one side constantly wears the white or the black hat. Very few hands are free of blood.
 
Now it's mostly the right that support Israel and I find myself generally with them on this issue. That doesn't mean I have no sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians or blame to cast onto Israel for her behavior. I do not however hold extreme views on the subject and put all the blame on one side.
 
Basically I believe that Israel and the Palestinians have to find a way to coexist together or they will continue to die together. Arguing endlessly about who has a more legitimate historical right to the the same land is non productive and ultimately futile. Neither people are going to go away. There will be no state of Israel or state of Palestine in Africa or anywhere else. The people live and die where they are now and that means they are going to have to find a way to live together.
 
Much has to be done and I hate to think most on the left and the right have become so polarized on the issue that extreme views rule the day. I don't see the Israel/ Palestinian issue as part of the "culture wars" that plague America but with the left in general, supporting the Palestinians and the right in general, supporting the Israelis it's becoming to look that way. Serious discussions about finding ways to solve the problems can't even get under way when both sides insist that one or the other has to get out. That will never happen.

Why do people hold such strong views on the Israel/ Palestinian issue and why has the left in America abandoned the Jewish State? What do you think?