Topic: Why is European Union Fundamentally doomed... (Read 4782 times)

They need to apply the free market principles to as many markets as possible and as fast as possible to regulate naturally those markets.

Some of the citizens are overpaid and overfed.... This is what the EU is supposed to address by the creation of "one market".

They waste the money on them and on overpriced services.

You have no idea of what you're talking about.
Actually, it's much worse than that. An East German is still seen as a foreigner in some parts of what was western Germany, an Italian from Napoli isn't welcome in Milano, and Parisians are treated like mad men in the rural areas of France, but frankly nobody cares about that anymore. In Southern France or in Tuscany, there are small villages where the foreigners vastly outnumbers the locals, and everything's fine.

Rather, the European Union will fail because their government officials are over paid and over fed, and there are way too many of them.

European Union will fail because their citizens are over paid and over feed.

It is actually economic policy but you are correct. Much of the EU has many socialists type labor laws that very much favor the worker. The problem is that these laws only give very short term gains to workers and are NPV negative for them over the long run

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10060618

The European Union is suffering from bad economic laws such as the minimum wage, high government wasteful spending and high debt.

The only reason that the European Union exists is to copy the United States, hoping that this copying will bring prosperity like the United States prosperity.

The common pee pole have been convince by those in governments that there is an advantage to union. The oaf-icials in governments realize that there is money in raping the pee pole via the Union. More and more government oaf-icials want a bigger and bigger piece of the pee pole pie. This greed is destroying the little bit of real promise that there might have been in a European Union government.

Government oaf-icials' greed is destroying the European Union. This is good. The common pee pole won't be plundered as much this way.

Greece

Britain

Italy. Europe will be kept together if the politics want it but it could become a smaller group of states.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/these-3-big-elections-may-determine-europes-fate-11972

Greece is not out quite yet!

lituania in.. greece out?

Alright, hand-waving it is then - kthxbye.

I think you should try and read my second comment again, this time with a more relaxed mind, there is more to it than what your comments suggest you've understood. All I'll say is that I don't use words randomly and that all my comments/responses are complete (by that I mean they contain all essential information and don't require follow-ups)
The reason I don't wanna discuss this topic further is simple, it will not achieve anything. It is clear from your second comment that your understanding cannot realistically be challenged, it is not yet set in stone but I estimate my chances of penetrating your defenses to be less than 3%.  This means that writing pages of text, while time consuming, will have little to no effect. I believe however that you have enough material to work with (from our comments so far) in case you are genuinely curious 

Euro is also the problem because it doesn't bend like national currencies used to so it's creating a massive unemployment in some countries (too strong euro for exports -> gdp shortfall) and benefits some countries, mostly germany (too cheap euro)  That's why some countries like italy or finland are in a dept cycle. 

EU problems are not the Euro it's the debt, the big governments that suck most the wealth creation.

eu is doomed because of the malfunctioning monetary system called euro which is stagnating most countries and benefits only germany, now even germany stagnating like bitbay or blocknet 
then sanctions against russia makes russian people angry because they don't produce anything but oil and they are going broke and then putin can say it's europe's fault and attack to eu  then ww3

I'm under no illusion that there is no systemic component to the problem - that is to say, replace the "one at the top" with someone else, and you'll often still get the same outcome. But that doesn't invalidate anything I said so far: these policies are still not laws of nature; and they, and indeed society, have been changing as awareness increases. To give obvious examples: slavery and racism are no longer viewed as being acceptable; women can vote; popular participation in policy decisions is increasing; etc.. So, I fail to see how, in your view, my argument supports the idea that this will lead to an overcoming of individual free will through force (I imagine you mean, forming the equivalent of a totalitarian state) - that is, unless your idea of free will is doing any and everything you want, without having to deal with the consequences (like jumping out of a cliff and not having to fall).


That seems like a cop-out. Feel free to challenge my fundamental understanding of the world - I like to learn new things. But you'll have to make do with rational arguments, not hand-waving.

Delegating responsibility (to the 'ones at the top') has always been the primary means of mitigating guilt. It does not come as a surprise that your argument strongly supports possibility number one. Unfortunately it is impossible for me to further elaborate on my comment without challenging your fundamental understanding of the world. Proceeding past this point on an intellectual level will only lead to a dead end, it is unavoidable. From here you have to come to your own conclusions. Good luck!

It's true that many of the internal and external policies being followed are based on power, on imposing "our" will on others, which as you say, divides as much (or even more) than it unites. But these aren't laws of nature, or the only way in which the world, and human society, knows how to work - again, this seems to me to be the path consciously chosen by those in power (in the several forms it manifests), which also happen to be those that typically profit the most from said policies. Of course, the population at large can be manipulated to support these efforts; but I don't believe it reflects most people's wants, or needs, or even a belief in force as being the only path available to enact change in the world. Now, that isn't to say society isn't to blame, to some extent, by accepting and going along with these policies, but that goes to my previous point: that is changing, and more quickly the more connected and aware we all are.

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On a more general note, I found the following episode of Head to Head with Viviane Reding, the former vice president of the European Commission, to be quite interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liLeHHFwDM8 ("Head to Head - Europe: Is the Union over?", 47m29s). It covers several issues, like the democratic deficit and austerity in Europe, though not to as great a depth as I would like. And, even if I disagree with a lot of what Viviane Reding said, I still admire her going through with it - especially knowing how hard hitting the questions in this program usually are.

You can have free trade without a common currency (the US has signed several free trade agreements with many other countries) however a common currency makes it much easier to trade from country to country as you do not need to deal with the currency conversion process.

I would say that if two or three countries were to abandon the euro, they would probably go back to their respective national currencies, not form their own new currency

You can have free trade and travel without a currency. If some countries go out of the Union, they could create their own currency are and there could be two different Euros. The ECB will likely inflate the Euro to save it. Buy Bitcoin and Gold

At this point the Euro will likely fail in the event that even one country stops using the Euro (even if they end up staying in the EU). This may or may not make the EU fail, however the EU was created to be an economic union where people can trade (and travel) freely within the union and this will be much more difficult without a common currency

You are absolutely correct. This, right here, is the paradox that will ultimately either destroy humanity or mold it into something new entirely. The 'world' is pushing for complete unification of its parts, this has been the case since the beginning. The concept/idea of unification is certainly very appealing on some level, it brings about consolidation, strengthens the sense of belonging, increases efficiency, amplifies the cozy "we're all in the same boat" feeling that helps keep people docile, etc. However the employed method is flawed. The 'world' is working toward its goal the only way it knows how, using power. The problem is that power is uncompromisingly double-edged, for every hundred that it rallies to the cause, 100 more is alienated. And neither of the 2 groups formed are 100% pure, they carry within them the divided feelings imparted to them by the whole. You'll never find a human with 100% allegiance to something, while this is not an issue in itself, you have to remember that the world is forcibly dragging all of its parts along a very specific path. The more well-defined the world gets, the stronger the bind it exerts on its parts. This results in internal pressure that only builds up as the world moves forward. Two possibilities: 1) the world achieves complete unification (100%) - this happens when its binding strength transcends free will and becomes irrevocable. 2) the world self-destructs - this happens when internal pressure reaches unsustainable levels.
It's not all gloomy though, as long as you have free will, you can still change  (assuming of course that you don't fall prey to the proverbial ego along the way  )

Every country has its own laws but there are laws imposed by the EU too according to the treaties that countries signed.

It's very much a cultural union. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't understand, or is disrespectful of, the cultural similarities between the member countries.

Take for instance, alcohol tax. It would not be possible if the various countries did not all have pretty similar policies, based on similar beliefs that drinking alcohol has some social costs, and that those costs should be accounted for. It's actually pretty sensible and I challenge Libertarians to describe a VIABLE free market alternative where things like property damage, violence, and health problems from alcohol are all paid privately. Let me guess, drunks will be put in private prisons, where they will work until they pay off their debt to someone's private police/insurer?

VAT is another common feature. Most taxes can be considered unfair when taken in isolation because they always target some specific group, while other groups don't have to pay anything. VAT is pretty broad-sweeping and discouraging excessive consumerism isn't such a bad idea. All that stuff about protecting the environment, raising health and education standards, has its roots in cultural values. Money is just the 'oil' for the machine.

Having a formal "union" is an acknowledgement that the various countries are better off cooperating together, rather than putting up artificial borders. The size and economy of scale gives the EU member countries much better negotiating power when trading with other large countries such as the US, Russia, or China.

People like the zerohedge crowd have been 'predicting' the EU's demise for years. And now the Russians are openly joining in. Feeling threatened much? Sounds bullish.

You are wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_(European_Union)

1.
The European Union is no United States. It's a Union of different countries without trade barriers, free movement of people... Every country has it's own laws...

With affordable traveling, same culture references and the internet, we can understand we are one people and should avoid going to wars even if our rulers want us to go get killed by our fellow brothers.

I kind of feel like it's the exact opposite to what you described here. A thousand years ago it must have been fairly easy to use people's lack of knowledge about the "others" to further a sense of national identity and a sense of isolation, us against the world, that pretty much allowed rulers to enact whatever policies they chose to pursue, usually to the detriment of the majority of the population. Nowadays, that is much harder to achieve (though it still happens frequently enough) - but, in my view, harder to achieve not so much because people aren't aware of their origins/traditions/culture, but rather because they increasingly realize that that doesn't really matter; that whatever the differences, "we're all in the same boat".

I'd say they're doing a bit too well at duplicating it. That's the risk.


Which makes them immune to the ridiculous urban sprawl that US cities are succumbing under.

Some young Europeans feel european and the European institutions will do whatever it takes to save it (themselves?) so it has a chance of surviving or maybe it will be cut in 2 or 3 with one or two countries totally leaving the union.

European Union was never based on something different than money, unlike the US were. We don't share a culture, or beliefs, or something that makes us stand united. We place our union on economy, and we oblige every country to be as the central bank wants them to be, thus the Stability and Growth Pact.

You are talking out of your ass, there are alot of problems with the eu and will proably be reformed when it fails, but it wont go down unless some serious shit like war go down

EU is in trouble because of murica's "business model" they failed at duplicating.

EU is in trouble because of government debts and fiscal systems, not because of where someone is threated as foreigner or how many lanes city roads have.

as Noland puts it: "fuck the EU!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o

Throw a 1000 years into the mix and at the end you'll have a believable union of the European countries. It'll take that long if not longer for the whole to assimilate its parts, the ingrained identities of the individual countries. A thousand years ago, it would not have taken that long because a thousand years ago, there were no video/sound recordings, images, internet etc to constantly remind people of their origins, traditions/culture. 

Teleportation is not scientifically possible. The teleportation that has been achieved so far actually destroys the molecules that are being sent and recreating them ~10 feet away (this is as far as science has allowed them to be teleported so far). This means that if technology can become advanced enough then anyone who would be teleported would actually be killed and then recreated at their destination.

I would also question the ability of cars/taxi's to be automated enough to anticipate all of the potential "objects" that can get in their way, while coordinating with each-other, while maintaining the safety of the entire network.

Both of these will result in cities needing to be car ready (or at least transportation ready)

Typical American libertarian mentality. Me first, then me, and then me. You couldn't come up with a better caricature if you tried. Fortunately the rest of the world has a more balanced view.

I just disagree with you last line... like a certain scientist said, something the universe and human stupidity... and something about repeating the same behaviors and expecting different outcome...


if you like your public drone, you can keep your public drone. I will stay in MY PRIVATE PROPREITY with MY PRIVATE STUFF that I will carry where I WANT, for HOW LONG I WANT, and if the idea took me, to see how SOLID MY DRONE IS...


Living means producing waste, does those wastes have values for anyone else? Alligators shit for fishes... If you like your crowded city, you can keep your crowded city. I will still using my "craft" to move.



You are against 2 people to love each others? I don't see how those intellectually inbreeded are preventing you from having the lifestyle you want. The core problem is that your ideologies is always defeated in the Great Battlefields... I prefer to stand with people in love that little trashy shit that will never be able to think of anything else but himself. You just lack awareness. However never forget, those men in love will never, I repeat, never hesitate to terminate you if you by anyway, mean, shape or form are threat to their family... so you can keep your little arrogant tone... remember it's just a forum on the internet.

Well... this way u can say that earth civilization are completely doomed...

No, it's not. European union is a vassal of USA these days. While America there so there is EU.

The EU expanded too fast too far. There are very big economical differences between east and west, south and north. Large part of the EU citizens are not happy with the direction we are forced to go. In addition the unelected leadership have no credibility, the EU parliament is a huge administrative burden with very little practical use. I think this mess will not go too far.

Dafaq?
Cars are shit. Ugly 20th century phallic symbols representing the 2+3 "nuclear family" taking a giant steaming dump on the environment. The whole point of cities is that people are already crowded close to where they need to be for all kinds of work and lifestyle things. So the best modes of transport are typically walking, cycling or light rail. Sacrificing the most valuable inner city real-estate for dead infrastructure space is the complete opposite of what many cities are trying to do.

The concept of family is just intellectual inbreeding, and the proud egos of the men and women who spread their seed the farthest. It's fine to a degree, as long as they don't belittle other people who make different choices with their lives.

Irrelevant.  Within 10 years taxis will be automated drones... picking you up and dropping you off wherever you want.

Within another 20 years we will have teleportation.

this really matter. And you didn't understood my first comment little statist that you are. Why? because I wasn't speaking of the state where the dreamers are, but the street. And in the European street (or galas) never will it be forgotten, as the traditional question goes: where are you from, where is the accent from... in short you are not one of us, but you are welcome we are open (they said to the waiters).

1 - This does not matter. The individual countries in Europe are still sovereign and any citizen of each country is still only considered a country of only that country. The EU is meant to be only a economic and trade union, not a sovereign union. In other words you can ship goods and services between European countries without having to deal with taxes or regulation (as well as travel between countries), however each individual country is free to create their own laws, ect.

This is very different from the US which treats anyone who does not given as much sovereign authority to the individual states

1. In Europe the only place where you will not be treated as a foreigner is where both of your parents (and grand parents) are born. Meaning that a German will always be a foreigner in Spain (not even speaking about language difficulties).

2. Most cities and towns are not car ready (16 lanes both side inside downtown)

3. Culturally and socially wipeout by WW1 and 2 and others groups (those pressuring to destroy the concept of family and community to replace it with national or European identity).

enough?