Why is everyone cheering bitpay for the payment protocol?

gweedo

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Quote from: bitcoinbeliever on February 21, 2014, 07:15:48 PM

Payment protocol has nothing to do with double spends, it has to do with do you trust where the address is coming from and how to do a refund.

Bitpay blog entry specifically states that BPP "eliminates the need to use the mesh network for communicating a payment from sender to recipient."

http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/02/20/bitpay-launches-payment-protocol-support.html

But it still needs the bitcoin network for relaying payments. Yes I can send you a payment with my public key and you can verify it is me, and I don't have to explicitly give you an address.

bitcoinbeliever

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Right. Since relaying to the bitcoin network happens later than usual, detection of double-spends by others on the network is negatively affected. Maybe merchant still checks bitcoin network to protect himself, but this is selfish behavior.

bitcoinbeliever

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Payment protocol has nothing to do with double spends, it has to do with do you trust where the address is coming from and how to do a refund.

Bitpay blog entry specifically states that BPP "eliminates the need to use the mesh network for communicating a payment from sender to recipient."

http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/02/20/bitpay-launches-payment-protocol-support.html

gweedo

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Quote from: benjamindees on February 21, 2014, 07:09:44 PM

I agree with gweedo that there are many concerns here. But isn't it true that the payment protocol is optional?

It is true, but what I fear and many others do too, is that bitpay and bitcoin foundation is so (I don't want to use powerful) influential that we will never get away people away from using it.

Think of SSL look how long it took for people to be like we need to use sites that use that.

benjamindees

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I agree with gweedo that there are many concerns here. But isn't it true that the payment protocol is optional?

bitcoinbeliever

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When does the payment get transmitted to the mesh network? If it doesn't happen until after user has the goods, how can merchant hope to detect recent double-spends from afar?

This in-process change, authored by Gavin, is intended to make such detection much more feasible by actually sharing double-spends rather than squelching them.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3354

Shawshank

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Quote from: Aswan on February 21, 2014, 04:42:14 PM

The way to make bitcoin usable on an everyday basis it not to use centralized and unsafe technologies just because they are widespread already.
If we do something, we should do it right, even it it takes more time...

I don't feel that X.509 is centralized. I would rather say it is hierarchical.

Anyone can be a root CA. A different problem is whether that CA is trustworthy to map the real identity of a person or company to a public key.

Aswan

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Quote from: gweedo on February 21, 2014, 12:49:26 PM

So if don't understand the payment protocol please don't cheer for it, instead question it. It is a broken centralized technology forced into a decentralized protocol. So now I guess bitcoin is only p2p and not decentralized.

Payment protocol uses X509 certificates which require you to register with a CA. You could self sign them but from what I have seen they will not work with the payment protocol. CA's are centralized and notorious for being hacked at anytime. X509 certificates also use fingerprints which are consider not to be safe, like the md5 hash and sha1 hash. Would you hash a password with any of those no!

While we all want to get to the mainstream as fast as possible, this is a marathon not a sprint. Shame should really go to bitpay and Gavin who both pushed for this, yet over stepped many other important features that should be under the hood of bitcoin, before building out features like this.

And I would like to ask core development team members to refrain from this thread please.

Also don't tell me not to use it or anything, it is that it is getting any use should be the worry some part or that I need to code my own client which I have done changes too but have not release due to that I feel like I don't want any part of the core dev team.

I totally agree. There are other ways even if they are not that easily implemented into existing technology. The way to make bitcoin usable on an everyday basis it not to use centralized and unsafe technologies just because they are widespread already.
If we do something, we should do it right, even it it takes more time...

BTCisthefuture

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Quote from: rmines on February 21, 2014, 01:27:00 PM

I do think that it should be better if we have at least another big payment processor such as Bitpay.
Bitpay probably handles 95% of all payment traffic to merchandiser right now?

Coinbase is very large as well, not that far behind bitpay I would assume. And I believe coinbase has quite a bit more VC funding as well, but dont quote me on that.

Shawshank

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Shawshank on February 21, 2014, 03:35:42 PM

Quote from: gweedo on February 21, 2014, 12:49:26 PM

Payment protocol uses X509 certificates which require you to register with a CA. You could self sign them but from what I have seen they will not work with the payment protocol. CA's are centralized and notorious for being hacked at anytime.

Wouldn't a web of trust be hacked even easier than the X.509 model? I think so!

I feel that for a global, international network like Bitcoin, a X509 system may be an easier, safer and farther-reaching solution than the web of trust.

Who said use a web of trust?

The X509 is flawed, we could switch and use PGP but then no one would probably use that, and that would super secure.

How would you use PGP? Wouldn't you use it in a web of trust?

EDIT: Configuring the web of trust is not trivial, either.

Shawshank

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Quote from: gweedo on February 21, 2014, 12:49:26 PM

Payment protocol uses X509 certificates which require you to register with a CA. You could self sign them but from what I have seen they will not work with the payment protocol. CA's are centralized and notorious for being hacked at anytime.

Wouldn't a web of trust be hacked even easier than the X.509 model? I think so!

I feel that for a global, international network like Bitcoin, a X509 system may be an easier, safer and farther-reaching solution than the web of trust.

Melbustus

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Quote from: Klestin on February 21, 2014, 02:47:32 PM

Quote from: rmines on February 21, 2014, 01:27:00 PM

I do think that it should be better if we have at least another big payment processor such as Bitpay.
Bitpay probably handles 95% of all payment traffic to merchandiser right now?

Don't forget Coinbase. I don't know their share of payment traffic, but given the fact that Overstock.com uses Coinbase, I'd say that alone pushes them beyond 5%.

I think Coinbase claims around 20,000 merchants, while BitPay claims 24,000+. Not sure what volume that translates to for either.

Klestin

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Quote from: rmines on February 21, 2014, 01:27:00 PM

I do think that it should be better if we have at least another big payment processor such as Bitpay.
Bitpay probably handles 95% of all payment traffic to merchandiser right now?

Don't forget Coinbase. I don't know their share of payment traffic, but given the fact that Overstock.com uses Coinbase, I'd say that alone pushes them beyond 5%.

gweedo

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Quote from: RodeoX on February 21, 2014, 01:25:23 PM

I don't see it as a problem because I can just choose to not use it. But I do use it.

Your opinion doesn't really count since you are a bitcoin foundation member and that is the reason that people think the payment protocol should be used, cause they were also the ones pushing it. It is very much broken technology and I would suggest that you read about it, please especially if you are using it.

Quote from: rmines on February 21, 2014, 01:27:00 PM

I do think that it should be better if we have at least another big payment processor such as Bitpay.
Bitpay probably handles 95% of all payment traffic to merchandiser right now?

This! but it is so hard to get a bank account to hold the flat, hence why they have 95% of the market space.

rmines

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I do think that it should be better if we have at least another big payment processor such as Bitpay.
Bitpay probably handles 95% of all payment traffic to merchandiser right now?

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

I don't see it as a problem because I can just choose to not use it. But I do use it.

Klestin

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Short answer? Bitpay et al form a crutch (IMO a necessary one) towards broader merchant acceptance.

gweedo

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So if don't understand the payment protocol please don't cheer for it, instead question it. It is a broken centralized technology forced into a decentralized protocol. So now I guess bitcoin is only p2p and not decentralized.

Payment protocol uses X509 certificates which require you to register with a CA. You could self sign them but from what I have seen they will not work with the payment protocol. CA's are centralized and notorious for being hacked at anytime. X509 certificates also use fingerprints which are consider not to be safe, like the md5 hash and sha1 hash. Would you hash a password with any of those no!

While we all want to get to the mainstream as fast as possible, this is a marathon not a sprint. Shame should really go to bitpay and Gavin who both pushed for this, yet over stepped many other important features that should be under the hood of bitcoin, before building out features like this.

And I would like to ask core development team members to refrain from this thread please.

Also don't tell me not to use it or anything, it is that it is getting any use should be the worry some part or that I need to code my own client which I have done changes too but have not release due to that I feel like I don't want any part of the core dev team.

Topic: Why is everyone cheering bitpay for the payment protocol? (Read 1633 times)