Why is MPOE worth so much? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: Peter Lambert on January 10, 2014, 12:11:25 PM

Is there anybody else that uses GPG signed contracts for assets?

A couple of real life registered Bitcoin companies here in the USA that I am involved with have started to do so. Assets are not exactly tradable so I realize that is not what you are really asking. Its pretty crazy to see. Will be showing my lawyers them soon, would really like to know what he thinks about it.

Yeah, I was talking about other online asset trading platforms (havelock, cryptostocks, GLBSE-copy-of-the-week, etc). Some might not remember, but GLBSE originally used GPG signed contracts; unfortunately there was no moderation as to what went into them. Later the gpg signatures were eliminated to make it more user friendly, before it was suddenly shut down.

I suspect we will see the use of gpg signatures grow in the business world. Adding them is a simple thing to do (once you spend just a little time learning how), and they are a great way of certifying a document, especially when dealing with distant people, sort of the modern version of having your documents witnessed by a notary.

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: Atruk on January 09, 2014, 11:41:22 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Peter Lambert on January 09, 2014, 06:54:05 PM

Quote from: Atruk on January 09, 2014, 06:28:44 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Peter Lambert on January 09, 2014, 01:40:08 PM

Interesting reading the old comments.

I am still trying to decide whether to put more or less money in S.MPOE? On the one hand it seems overvalued for the amount of dividend it produces currently, but on the other hand it is the most steady investment in bitcoins and has room to grow?

This is still around? People still use this?

With all the new options I'm kinda shocked.

What new options?

Exactly my thought. Is there anybody that does what MPEx does?

yeah, there are at least two russian sites that do this and i had thought some western ones as well. maybe not i guess. i dont follow it well.

As far as I know there are people supposing the operate options markets and different people supposing they operate markets for stocks. Even most charitably supposing these things exist, none of them have... history...

How's Cognitive doing?

Is there anybody else that uses GPG signed contracts for assets?

Atruk

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Peter Lambert on January 09, 2014, 06:54:05 PM

Quote from: Atruk on January 09, 2014, 06:28:44 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Peter Lambert on January 09, 2014, 01:40:08 PM

Interesting reading the old comments.

I am still trying to decide whether to put more or less money in S.MPOE? On the one hand it seems overvalued for the amount of dividend it produces currently, but on the other hand it is the most steady investment in bitcoins and has room to grow?

This is still around? People still use this?

With all the new options I'm kinda shocked.

What new options?

Exactly my thought. Is there anybody that does what MPEx does?

yeah, there are at least two russian sites that do this and i had thought some western ones as well. maybe not i guess. i dont follow it well.

As far as I know there are people supposing the operate options markets and different people supposing they operate markets for stocks. Even most charitably supposing these things exist, none of them have... history...

How's Cognitive doing?

Peter Lambert

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It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Quote from: Atruk on January 09, 2014, 06:28:44 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Peter Lambert on January 09, 2014, 01:40:08 PM

Interesting reading the old comments.

I am still trying to decide whether to put more or less money in S.MPOE? On the one hand it seems overvalued for the amount of dividend it produces currently, but on the other hand it is the most steady investment in bitcoins and has room to grow?

This is still around? People still use this?

With all the new options I'm kinda shocked.

What new options?

Exactly my thought. Is there anybody that does what MPEx does?

Atruk

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Peter Lambert on January 09, 2014, 01:40:08 PM

Interesting reading the old comments.

I am still trying to decide whether to put more or less money in S.MPOE? On the one hand it seems overvalued for the amount of dividend it produces currently, but on the other hand it is the most steady investment in bitcoins and has room to grow?

This is still around? People still use this?

With all the new options I'm kinda shocked.

What new options?

Peter Lambert

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It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Interesting reading the old comments.

I am still trying to decide whether to put more or less money in S.MPOE? On the one hand it seems overvalued for the amount of dividend it produces currently, but on the other hand it is the most steady investment in bitcoins and has room to grow?

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: rpietila on March 20, 2013, 07:50:29 AM

How does one get into the WOT, and do you think it could benefit me OR the community? You know, if it requires time, can I hire a PR representative to do such things for me?

No pun intended.

It takes all of five minutes, and it's your premier tool to navigate the very unsteady oceans of Bitcoin. See here.

rpietila

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How does one get into the WOT, and do you think it could benefit me OR the community? You know, if it requires time, can I hire a PR representative to do such things for me?

No pun intended.

davout

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1davout

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99% not on WoT is a very reasonable estimation.

Numbers : they're cold, they're hard, but they have their uses.
I hope for you that you don't do finance the same way you do your estimations.

rpietila

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Quote from: MPOE-PR on March 20, 2013, 05:54:35 AM

That's not quite how things work, but by all means, knock yourself out. Flavor of the week by now this "I've made a website so therefore I have a business" thing.

Oh no, I don't have a website, I don't even know how to make one. In fact, and funny indeed, one of the biggest companies that I own, does not have a single website, yet is able to churn a six-figure annual profit.

davout

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Your assumption that 100% of bitcoin land has an account here is silly.

Just saying.

Well, I'm just pulling assumptions and figures out of my ass like you just did.
All the sock puppets probably compensate for the people that are active in Bitcoin land but don't have an account here.

It's still better to use available figures and pull *some* things out of your ass rather than pull *everything* out of your ass.

Stinks slightly less, deal with it.

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: davout on March 20, 2013, 07:07:00 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

99.9% of bitcoinland is not in WoT, 80% has never heard of it. You are humorously delusional:)

- 2806 * 30 accounts on btctalk
- 3282 WoT accounts

~4% of BitcoinLand is in the WoT.

Just saying.

Your assumption that 100% of bitcoin land has an account here is silly.

Just saying.

Yes, yes, and unicorns. We're talking finance here, not facebook.

davout

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Quote from: ?? on ??

99.9% of bitcoinland is not in WoT, 80% has never heard of it. You are humorously delusional:)

- 2806 * 30 accounts on btctalk
- 3282 WoT accounts

~4% of BitcoinLand is in the WoT.

Just saying.

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: MPOE-PR on March 20, 2013, 03:18:49 AM

Quote from: rpietila on March 20, 2013, 02:27:36 AM

Can you, or anyone else tell me, what is the surest and most convenient way to short the crap out of MPEx? What I am thinking is to issue naked contracts that pay out the MPEx dividends, crash the market, and buyback (or no). My analysis shows that the BTC price will in most scenarios outperform MPEx anyway, and there is no possibility of a short squeeze as I don't even claim these to represent any MPEx shares with voting rights, (not that there was any to begin with). See my discussion with MPOE-PR at:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-company-shareholding-structure-154258

If you're a large enough trader on MPEx to have margin you can just borrow the shares. If you're not you could probably still come to an arrangement with some of the holders to borrow the shares (except if you have no WoT rating, in which case as I've said countless times you are not part of Bitcoin trading/finance). Finally, perhaps your broker can help you, if you have one and enough of a relationship/credit with them.

You could try to short naked obviously, but you'd have to find someone to accept your nudity, which seems improbable, since as far as anyone can discern you're nobody with nothing at all.

Lol, I'm not on WoT, so I must not be part of "bitcoin trading/finance" then Grin

You aren't. You're this thing. Sorta like usagi, basically.

Quote from: rpietila on March 20, 2013, 04:23:17 AM

Be kind to your inferiors, MP. If their relative growth rate is higher than yours, everybody investing in you loses money, relative to investing in the newcomers. My bitcoin-business valuation is 1/350 of yours and it seriously considers raising funding by imitating YOUR payouts, while keeping its own shares and profits.

That's not quite how things work, but by all means, knock yourself out. Flavor of the week by now this "I've made a website so therefore I have a business" thing.

rpietila

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Quote from: MPOE-PR on March 20, 2013, 03:18:49 AM

You could try to short naked obviously, but you'd have to find someone to accept your nudity, which seems improbable,

At least I am conscious of and frank about (the prospect of) my nudity. Not everyone is.

Quote from: MPOE-PR on March 20, 2013, 03:18:49 AM

since as far as anyone can discern you're nobody with nothing at all.

THIS is so obvious that how come it could have slipped my mind...

Be kind to your inferiors, MP. If their relative growth rate is higher than yours, everybody investing in you loses money, relative to investing in the newcomers. My bitcoin-business valuation is 1/350 of yours and it seriously considers raising funding by imitating YOUR payouts, while keeping its own shares and profits.

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Quote from: rpietila on March 20, 2013, 02:27:36 AM

Can you, or anyone else tell me, what is the surest and most convenient way to short the crap out of MPEx? What I am thinking is to issue naked contracts that pay out the MPEx dividends, crash the market, and buyback (or no). My analysis shows that the BTC price will in most scenarios outperform MPEx anyway, and there is no possibility of a short squeeze as I don't even claim these to represent any MPEx shares with voting rights, (not that there was any to begin with). See my discussion with MPOE-PR at:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-company-shareholding-structure-154258

You could buy put options on bitfunder (but there's no options or much volume ATM): https://bitfunder.com/asset/G.MPOE

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: rpietila on March 20, 2013, 02:27:36 AM

Can you, or anyone else tell me, what is the surest and most convenient way to short the crap out of MPEx? What I am thinking is to issue naked contracts that pay out the MPEx dividends, crash the market, and buyback (or no). My analysis shows that the BTC price will in most scenarios outperform MPEx anyway, and there is no possibility of a short squeeze as I don't even claim these to represent any MPEx shares with voting rights, (not that there was any to begin with). See my discussion with MPOE-PR at:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-company-shareholding-structure-154258

If you're a large enough trader on MPEx to have margin you can just borrow the shares. If you're not you could probably still come to an arrangement with some of the holders to borrow the shares (except if you have no WoT rating, in which case as I've said countless times you are not part of Bitcoin trading/finance). Finally, perhaps your broker can help you, if you have one and enough of a relationship/credit with them.

You could try to short naked obviously, but you'd have to find someone to accept your nudity, which seems improbable, since as far as anyone can discern you're nobody with nothing at all.

rpietila

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Can you, or anyone else tell me, what is the surest and most convenient way to short the crap out of MPEx? What I am thinking is to issue naked contracts that pay out the MPEx dividends, crash the market, and buyback (or no). My analysis shows that the BTC price will in most scenarios outperform MPEx anyway, and there is no possibility of a short squeeze as I don't even claim these to represent any MPEx shares with voting rights, (not that there was any to begin with). See my discussion with MPOE-PR at:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-company-shareholding-structure-154258

El Cabron

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Quote from: Peter Lambert on March 19, 2013, 11:45:11 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

BTW anyone who is a seller thinks their assets are overvalued. Why else would MPOE (andf all others) sell at a set price? Cuz they think it is a good deal.

AsicMiner needed to get capital tp make hardware. S.dice does not need capital to make anything, he admitted he is just cashing out.

People sell because of the time value of money. Evoorhees could have held onto the shares of the company and gotten the money in the future, or he could sell shares and have the money now, which he can then use for other things. An investor holding money he does not need right now can let it sit and stay constant, or he can invest where he thinks it will be worth more in the future. Thus the trade benefits both parties, the share issuer gets money right now, the share buyer gets money in the future.

You assume he could get .0032 or whatever per share in the future, but that is an assumption you are claiming as a fact.

There is no guarantee this stock will be worth more than null in 1 month.

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: ?? on ??

BTW anyone who is a seller thinks their assets are overvalued. Why else would MPOE (andf all others) sell at a set price? Cuz they think it is a good deal.

AsicMiner needed to get capital tp make hardware. S.dice does not need capital to make anything, he admitted he is just cashing out.

People sell because of the time value of money. Evoorhees could have held onto the shares of the company and gotten the money in the future, or he could sell shares and have the money now, which he can then use for other things. An investor holding money he does not need right now can let it sit and stay constant, or he can invest where he thinks it will be worth more in the future. Thus the trade benefits both parties, the share issuer gets money right now, the share buyer gets money in the future.

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: Peter Lambert on March 18, 2013, 07:16:15 PM

I don't think you understood what you quoted. Goat issued more crappy, worthless assets (some positive value) than the whole MPEX has to offer (no crappy, worthless assets there).

Indeed on re-read I see your point. My bad.

Quote from: ?? on ??

BTW anyone who is a seller thinks their assets are overvalued. Why else would MPOE (andf all others) sell at a set price? Cuz they think it is a good deal.

Actually MP sold in an attempt to create a real market for Bitcoin financials (this is quite obvious especially if you consider the way original shares were allocated, and their pricing at the time). But that aside the point probably stands in general.

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: MPOE-PR on March 18, 2013, 07:09:30 PM

Quote from: PsychoticBoy on March 18, 2013, 05:03:28 PM

Isn't that a little hypocrite Goat, since back in the good old GLBSE days you issued more crappy worthless assets than whole MPEX has to offer.

Not quite. GLBSE was like 50k BTC. MPEx is over 1.25 mn BTC currently. If you also figure the 5 vs 50 BTC/USD ratio that adds another order of magnitude to the difference (the third).

I don't think you understood what you quoted. Goat issued more crappy, worthless assets (some positive value) than the whole MPEX has to offer (no crappy, worthless assets there).

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: PsychoticBoy on March 18, 2013, 05:03:28 PM

Isn't that a little hypocrite Goat, since back in the good old GLBSE days you issued more crappy worthless assets than whole MPEX has to offer.

Not quite. GLBSE was like 50k BTC. MPEx is over 1.25 mn BTC currently. If you also figure the 5 vs 50 BTC/USD ratio that adds another order of magnitude to the difference (the third).

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I only bought into AsicMiner with much coin, the rest including s.dice does not look like a long term good investment to me. Will people who bought at the s.dice ipo price ever get it back in dividends?

This is a bit off-topic.

IPO price: 0.0032 btc, current price: 0.0051, How much have they already gotten from dividends? something like 0.000644, or 20% in dividends in six months. Why are you so obsessed with getting the initial investment back as dividends? The share price has gone up, the investment is worth more now than at the IPO.

You know, there are companies that give no dividends, right? Why would anybody buy one of those, they would never get their investment back!

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Quote from: JordanL on March 17, 2013, 07:57:56 PM

Quote from: MPOE-PR on March 17, 2013, 06:29:30 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I think it is overvalued. But I also think 99% of the assets are overvalued :/

Well that's easy to do when you've blown all your BTC on trying to close out your willful exposure to Bitcoin's most overvalued asset to date.

Fill me in? Which asset are you referring to? (inquiring minds and all that)

I'm going to guess lending money to Pirate but it is hard to say as I have been involved with or invested into just about everything good or bad in bitcoin land in the last 2 years.

What I am saying is, in BTC land it is hard to find a company who can get returns faster than BTC is going up in value. Asicminer, who makes BTC might be the exception.

Things like s.dice might see their volume go down significantly if BTC hits $10,000. Asicminer will still mine BTC no matter what the price is.

My attack was not at MPOE but at all assets that might lose volume as the BTC price goes to the moon.

BTW I'm very bullish, and that makes me look at things differently than most maybe.

Isn't that a little hypocrite Goat, since back in the good old GLBSE days you issued more crappy worthless assets than whole MPEX has to offer.

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: JordanL on March 17, 2013, 07:57:56 PM

Fill me in? Which asset are you referring to? (inquiring minds and all that)

He ran the largest volume pirate pass-through (although it is disputed exactly how much of that volume was self trading). Bear in mind that PPTs were something like half to three quarters of Global Scam Exchange volume at the time. He says he's satisfied/settled claims against him resulting from that out of pocket, nobody has so far come forth to claim different so prima facie that claim stands. That led to an usagi-style meltdown followed by a half year's vacation or so, which'd suggest he was pretty nearly wiped in the adventure (wouldn't be the only one with pirate, of course).

If you go through the original S.DICE announcement you can see he's been spewing bs about it since roughly August. I'd say a case of personal investment, kinda hard to admit to being wrong etc. He does try his best to go about it underhandedly, creating knots of nonsense like "I'm bullish on BTC so that's why solid company A with a history and good management is no good whereas proven incompetence B is king & queen" which probably appear defensible to him - at least if one doesn't go looking past the surface.

Basically MPEx unapologetically ate a number of people's lunches. We did it publicly, insultingly and mercilessly. There be some sore butts left littering the landscape afterwards as you'd expect. His is one.

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Psi laju, karavani prolaze.

Quote from: ?? on ??

What I am saying is, in BTC land it is hard to find a company who can get returns faster than BTC is going up in value.

Funny you mention that in this very thread. S.MPOE went from like ~0.0005 to ~0.0007 while BTC went from 12 to 40 something. I guess its hard for you to find even when it bites you in the ass.

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: ?? on ??

What I am saying is, in BTC land it is hard to find a company who can get returns faster than BTC is going up in value. Asicminer, who makes BTC might be the exception.

Things like s.dice might see their volume go down significantly if BTC hits $10,000. Asicminer will still mine BTC no matter what the price is.

My attack was not at MPOE but at all assets that might lose volume as the BTC price goes to the moon.

BTW I'm very bullish, and that makes me look at things differently than most maybe.

The decrease in volume as prices rise at places like satoshidice and mpoe is yet to be seen.

Asicminer will still mine BTC, but the amount they get depends on the difficulty, and the difficulty tends to go up.

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Quote from: MPOE-PR on March 17, 2013, 06:29:30 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I think it is overvalued. But I also think 99% of the assets are overvalued :/

Well that's easy to do when you've blown all your BTC on trying to close out your willful exposure to Bitcoin's most overvalued asset to date.

Fill me in? Which asset are you referring to? (inquiring minds and all that)

MPOE-PR

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I think it is overvalued. But I also think 99% of the assets are overvalued :/

Well that's easy to do when you've blown all your BTC on trying to close out your willful exposure to Bitcoin's most overvalued asset to date.

Peter Lambert

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Quote from: ineededausername on March 16, 2013, 03:48:29 PM

Shareholders are being paid 50-500 satoshis per share per month, with each share being worth around 72k satoshis currently. That works out to, on average, around 250/72000 (let's be optimistic...) = a third of a percent per month. Seeing as S.DICE and other securities are paying at least 5 times that, why the hell is anyone buying S.MPOE? Is there a part of the contract I am missing?

S.MPOE and S.DICE are different companies, with different risk factors. The market seems to think that MPOE has a lower risk than DICE.

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Quote from: ineededausername on March 16, 2013, 03:48:29 PM

Shareholders are being paid 50-500 satoshis per share per month, with each share being worth around 72k satoshis currently. That works out to, on average, around 250/72000 (let's be optimistic...) = a third of a percent per month. Seeing as S.DICE and other securities are paying at least 5 times that, why the hell is anyone buying S.MPOE? Is there a part of the contract I am missing?

Because you don't just look at the dividends when evaluating assets.

MPOE-PR

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It's been a topic of wonder/fascination for MP too. But incidentally, weren't you offering him some shares to short? What became of that?

Anyway, S.MPOE paid about half what S.DICE paid, over about the same interval.

ineededausername

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Shareholders are being paid 50-500 satoshis per share per month, with each share being worth around 72k satoshis currently. That works out to, on average, around 250/72000 (let's be optimistic...) = a third of a percent per month. Seeing as S.DICE and other securities are paying at least 5 times that, why the hell is anyone buying S.MPOE? Is there a part of the contract I am missing?

Topic: Why is MPOE worth so much? (Read 3641 times)