Topic: Why so few immersion cooled custom builds/Mods? (Read 5468 times)

It might very well be that it works, however it is impossible to tell if all the plastics used in all the components of a pcb are suited. That is the whole point and problem with immersion cooling - if it is your own hardware, you can surely just take the risk, otherwise things get complicated.
Novecs 3M is no different in this regard..

If you read the specs on the Clearco fluids you will see they CAN be used with many silicon rubbers. Just need to verify it with the components used. The only silicon rubber component would be seals on large caps and I have already verified with a >6mo soak in ST50 that it does not harm the seals.

Mineral oil is proven to embrittle nylon and PVC wiring so that is right out of the picture. Now GRC may use a mineral-based fluid but that is a vastly different thing than generic mineral oil as found in a drug store.

Silicone oil might not be a good idea for parts using silicone in them... Might be perfect for a transformer, but problematic for electronics.
Nobody will give you a certificate that all is well with his product.
This guys seem to know what they are doing: https://www.grcooling.com/ and it is said to be mineral oil.

Any new information on immersion cooling products?

Provided the correct thermal fluids were used (ones that do not attack rubber/plastic), of course. If you were using Novec it will simply evaporate. Fluids like those from Clearco will need to be rinsed off using alcohol.  In either case the miners will be pristine and probably a bit cleaner than when new.

Can you actually sell/re-use components used in immersion cooled builds once you take them out of the fluid?

Hey OP sorry to threadjack but is there a thread  you know of that points out the typical components that do go bad?  Is it visible?

Gotta say, of all the pluses #6 is the most compelling! 

It was google translator But anyway thank you

Quoted so the pictures can be seen.
I must say that either you have a very good translator or your English is quite good. In fact better than many native English-speaking members here...

Hello. I want to present you equipment for liquid cooling of any kind of chips for mining, such as video cards, ASIC, etc.









 
The production of boxes for cooling (5 kW) has been set up, possibly an increase to 50 kW. The price for boxing will remain about the same. Only the price of liquid will increase. Successfully tested on Panda miners.
 
The container consists of a board tank, an internal heat exchanger, a level sensor, an integrated "cold trap" for trapping liquid vapor. The overall dimensions of the container will be refined after receiving the data on the cards.
The liquid (Novec 649 3M) does not conduct electricity and does not adversely affect the boards.
The boiling point of the liquid is 49 degrees. This means that the temperature on the chips will always be about 60.

The quantity of liquid is the calculated parameter. The cost of the liquid is 1300 euros.

Pluses:
1. No any noise
2. No dust
3. High fire safety (liquid used in fire-extinguishing systems)
4. There is no harmful effect on the chips
5. Overheating protection (turns off on power)
6. Looks cool

Disadvantages:
Equipment can be more expensive than air ventilation

***
The case of the box is made of aluminum. It consists of two parts - a container with a liquid and a lid with heat exchangers. The container is sealed, but not under pressure. Power / interface inputs are implemented in different ways depending on the power and required interfaces.
 
Price per box = $ 4200
The liquid must be ordered separately, the amount of liquid is the calculated parameter, so I do not indicate the price, 10 liters 1300 euros.

The product is made to order, the manufacturing time is approximately 2 months (imported liquid, the terms are large because of the fact that it will be necessary to order bp of China).
Delivery to your country is discussed separately.
 
Cooling the box is possible in two ways
1. Connect to a cold water source. For 5 kW, the required amount of water is 5 liters per minute
2. Connects to a dry cooling tower. The cooling tower must be ordered separately. The cost is approximately. The cost of the cooling tower is about 3500-4000 $
===========

Calculation of the price of equipment at 50 kW (very approximate)

1. The box is $ 4200. The container consists of a board tank, an internal heat exchanger, a level sensor, an integrated "cold trap" for trapping 3M liquid vapor. The overall dimensions of the container will be refined after receiving the data on the cards. The specification for capacity and drawings will be provided to the customer for approval.
2. Water Novec 649 - 5000 $. This is an imported product, so the cost can change. We will order the necessary quantity of liquid from the 3M dealer and provide the documents for payment. The standard term is 52 working days.
3a. Dry cooling tower with control unit. 8140 $. We buy this equipment in St. Petersburg.
3b. Instead of a dry cooling tower, you can connect the box to a source of cold water. This can be a point of economy.

The cost of installation and delivery of equipment is not yet clear. It depends on the country and requires discussion.

I apologize for the mistakes, my English level is not very good yet. Thank you for attention.

P.S. Also I can answer you in Telegram. My account ID is @lokoroko

Good reason to bump this.
Nothing wrong with Novec aside from price and the design precautions needed to use it. Perfect for commercial operations.

As for 3M not selling it to you: The fluid is designed for industrial use and as with most industrial chemicals/fluids I do not know of ANY manufacturer that will sell them to a non-commercial entity. When it is a business purchasing systems or fluids like that then there is some relief from lawsuits arising from improper use or large spills and their cleanup costs. Pretty safe bet home owners insurance will not cover you if/when something happens...

I wanted to do a small set up in my home with one S9 antminer in like a fish tank and a basic fan on radiator set up but I wanted to ask since you all seem to know lots which has been quite helpful! Is immersion cooling effective like a fan? And is it safe to run 24-7? I just don't wanna have loud fans so immersion cooling seems to get rid of those, just wanted to know if it was really affective or if it still runs the risk of burning the chip and capacitors. Cheers guys!

I did end up discussing an install with a couple of their techs.  The reason they are hesitant about doing residential installs is mainly just the price.  Their systems are made to be huge for data centers, so if you have only a single immersion tank in your garage, you're spending a ton of money on a cooling tower, heat exchanger, and pumps that are made to cool several immersion tanks.

Was just poking around the Forum and had further thoughts on this:
GRCooling's reticence on doing a residential installation is probably due to liability concerns over systems using many gallons of industrial fluid. For one, odds are fire and zoning laws for urban residential areas may well forbid it. Another being spill response and waste disposal. How many home owners would know how to handle it correctly?

I know for a fact Clearco who make the thermal fluid I referred to above will not sell to a non-commercial entity. When it is a business purchasing systems or fluids like that then there is some relief from lawsuits arising from improper use or large spills and their cleanup costs. Pretty safe bet home owners insurance will not cover you if/when something happens...

Yes.  That was for a refurbished unit without shipping or installation considered.  Any rich sponsors out there?

Including the outdoor dry cooler? How many ton is it good for with say a desired miner fluid temp of 140F (60C) and a worst case hot outdoor temp of 110F (43.3C).

$30k is a decent ballpark, possibly sorta low.

I was finally able to speak with them.  Their systems start at $30,000.  Not sure I can justify the purchase, but it would be awesome for mining...

Whats wrong with Novec? I tried back in the day to buy Novec 7100 from 3M, but they wouldnt sell it to me!
I was planning a small scale immersion project.

hi!!
nice to hear this topic again..
at the beginning i was fascinated about this kind of solution...
With the same power consumption you can push S9 frequency to the limit...
but then i have stopped all my project when i'm not been able to find a valid Novec fluid alternative...
here you can find a lot of data avout this fluids data:
http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/novec/products/product-catalog/?N=8708160&rt=r3

last time i have checked the price, was at 125eur for 500ml and 215eur for 1Lt..
too much expensive...

Love it and makes for a great post # 2,000 for me

As with all the other applications, since the business is paying for power anyway to make the needed heat it would be to their advantage to offset the energy cost by mining. Say use the miners to supply around 75-80% of the heat needed and use a conventional heat source to provide the rest. That way miners stay running 24x7 and temp control is done by the conventional heater & temp controls.

bitjerky.. has a great ring to it. people would probably buy for the novelty of tasting some petahash infused beef.

I've often thought it'd be handy to pipe my exhaust heat into a greenhouse or something so I could have fresh corn in January. Though realistically my shop leaks so much, it was all I could do to keep the place warm with miner heat and didn't have any to spare for vegetables.

Ah. That aspect has been extensively covered and recovered and recovered in other threads... Ya the heat could be reused in many areas needing a constant moderately to very warm temp. Quick re-cap:
Hydronic heating
Baking (proving rooms)
Food preservation (beef jerky)
Pools/spas

I like what machine zero is saying about heating his pool  . I don't have one myself to heat, but certainly the idea of transferring the asic heat to a fluid makes it more transportable and re-usable in other applications. By not blowing dusty air around too maybe this could transfer heat into cleaner environments, (food prep areas like bakers proving room/cupboard etc) I dunno, like I said earlier I was just trying to encourage some discussion on the topic of why not and not so much how.

That ^^ looks rather nice and good to see they are not using Novec
Tried to dl the FAQ on their thermal xfr fluid but must be one helluva big PDF -- over minute and still not loaded. That's a 'FAQ'?
Too bad and rather stupid that they won't talk to 'small' users...

What are the options for purchasing a finished system for immersion cooling?

I've only been able to find this product, and the company didn't want to talk to me about a small residential installation...

http://www.grcooling.com/carnotjet/

You have to design a board to work with immersion cooling specifically, as a general rule, for it to work properly and reliably - and the up-front investment in the hardware AND the cooling setup isn't exactly low cost.

It can work well once it's set up, though - but it's more "large pro farms" that use it, or something like that BitFury "shipping container" setup.

Ya on the emphasis I added.
In our laser systems the total piping run for the cooling oil side is only a few feet just for that reason. Way cheaper (less thermal fluid) to xfr from the oil to water using a heat exchanger located in the systems.

My fav heat exchangers are the plate type, damn near 100% xfr efficiency. I use this one https://www.mcmaster.com/#35115k62/=1797t5f to keep 10kw of laser heat load a constant 72-75F using 60F water flowing 5GPM, water solenoid spends about 50% time on & off so could push even more heat in if wanted.

Given the miners like running MUCH hotter - remember, 70C = 158F - - gives us a very large delta-T to work with so cooling the water side just using air even on a hot day should still let you pull a helluva lot of heat out of the system.

EDIT: Hopefully it should go without saying but I must anyway: If you are going to be using liquid cooling and running miners at over about 100F (37.78C) then DO NOT use a plastic tank! Plastic of any type begins to soften/deform at surprisingly low temperatures... Fiberglass good (hmm, a stand alone laundry sink? Already has a nice hole in the bottom for incoming oil returning from the oil/water exchanger...), metal tank is best.

Need a parts list and some pictures.

I'm thinking something like

that encases 2 S9s,  feeds into a pool pump and with a flick of the switch exchanges heat into the house.

If you just had a dunk tank with a circulator inside it, you could put whatever miner you wanted in there. Pump your fluid out to a radiator in your basement or another exchanger in the pool. If that's too much pricey fluid, use a heat exchanger in the tank and pump water or something through it and out to the radiator. That's gonna raise the overall temperature a bit because you'll have two heat transfers instead of just one, so you'd have to pay a bit more attention when designing and operating to make sure it'd handle full power.

I would love to heat my pool using some kind of heat transfer between may-sep, then switch to heating my basement on other months.
It'd be nice if it was one system and interchangeable with the latest miner.

Wishful thinking...

I hacked together a prototype tank for some testing a while back. This is just a simple open loop design (just runs and dumps cold water through the coil). Have some more ASICs coming so maybe ill modify this with a real closed loop design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5-BaH8_SAk

Provided the output was compatible (or easy to transform), that'd be a better option.

Or, a flow sensor for the cooling loop would also work. They're quite cheap on ebay these days, but watch the seals.

Anything that'll make a 12V pulsetrain at about 135Hz on the tach line will tell the controller it's got a fan running at 4000RPM. A $1 555 circuit will do that.

This guy seemed to have good results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo0g2dKPAcQ

He had interesting reasoning for why he hasn't done immersion cooling on an S9...


Seems like it would be easy enough to get around, but another interesting drawback to the auto-tune firmware Bitmain introduced.

Might as well resurect these old Novec Data Tank vid eh? https://vimeo.com/95819646 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iykkSo75yDo
240kw in a very small volume tank in that last one... Woof.

2 things drives it: Max kw in smallest size package and moving that heat load somewhere else to be gotten rid of. For us that is a plant cooling water supply running up to 110F, preferably under 95F. Well, that and lack of fans/filters to replace.

Ok that makes 3.
Maybe 4.
What is this? The Spanish Inquisition??!

A typical 30kv supply good for 20kw is about 2ft-square-sided cube and that is mainly due to spacing needed due to the high voltage.

Ok, so there's a few more forum topics than I thought on this (I searched the forum for immersion cooling, and there was nothing recent. I didn't look for submersion   )

But I don't really want to get hung up on the how to. That seems like a common theme, oil types etc. (Unless the reason people don't do this is complexity.) Just the why "why" interests me in particular. I do this as a hobby and am very prepared to modify things to suit my needs. I have my miners close to where I sleep due to living arrangements. This makes noise my biggest concern. No point me having an S7 if I never sleep again    This has limited me to s3 units and swapping the fans for quieter one's. For me that works great.

But I trying to test the room for if people are happy the way things are with air cooling. How about when bitmain had the C1? It's not quite as drastic as immersion/submersion cooling but tackles the noise problem. Not sure it helps the power regulating components much though.

Does anyone think that as these things are sounding more and more like a jet engine with people posting videos on youtube using blenders as noise comparisons, we're using air as a cooling medium but that's on the edge of still being practical? A step in a different direction

I just feel the life of these units could be extended if this route was taken, (and done properly, but again not bothered with the how yet as in other threads).

***notfuzzywarm posted as I was writing this and it's great to see some expert insight. Can you say if the units you work with benefit from the immersion cooling due to high component count, or due to needing to transfer more heat than air allows, or other reasons?

For decades I've worked with immersion cooling all the time in HVDC supplies producing 10's of kwatts and will categorically state the thermal xfr fluid is a key to it. Yes in my case has to withstand 30-50kv but more importantly has to be thermally stable, have excellent heat transfer ability and, most importantly not attack other materials. Off the shelf mineral oil attacks hoses, seals, and electronic components. Due to its viscosity it pumps/flows very poorly.

Yes having a horse trough (preferably a real metal tank) full of miners in a fluid like the one from Clearco should work great. I use it in work and is near-water thin so pumps/flows very well. So far only caution about materials is pure silicon-rubber -- makes it swell.

Since miners like a high temp, say a bath running around 50-60C, that makes for a great delta-T between the fluid and outside ambient resulting in a smaller hot-side air/fluid exchanger needed.

Yes the Clearco fluid is pricey but way way less than Novec is. Plus of course, if left in the open on a very hot day or in case of a drastic thermal event caused by no flow/pump & fans status/overtemp cutouts, several hundred $ (or several thousand $ if Novec) of it does not go away....

I'd like to see more immersion cooled mining setups as well...  Having the benefit of learning from someone else's mistakes might give me the confidence to try it myself.

Please ref https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--1604125 dealing with liquid/immersion cooling a s9.

Mineral oil is NOT a good thing to use:
Only moderate heat-capacity (how well it absorbs/releases heat)
Viscosity highly variable with temp
Even when warm, is still not easy to pump
Attacks many plastics including Nylon (PCIe connectors), PCV (wire insulation) and elastomer (rubber) capacitor seals.

Much better choice are thermal transfer fluids designed for use with electronics and electrical parts such as http://www.clearcoproducts.com/dielectric-silicone-fluids-sto-50.html

Water-thin meaning easy to pump and flows very well around components, does NOT attack rubber/plastic, etc., very good thermal properties.

Yes a heat exchanger of some sort would be needed too, agreed. It was a simplification and a whole other topic of how to build one.

But on that topic it reminds me of other posts I've read here. People setting up their miners in the garage due to noise/heat and opening a air inlet through the wall, and exhausting through another hole. It just screamed contamination from ingesting bugs, leaves in autumn or anything wanting to nest somewhere warm.  What about the other advantage of having the miner indoors and pumping the oil through hose to the heat exchanger at a more suitable location? I just think that as everyone's circumstances and climates are different depending on where/how they live yet we all have the same air in/out push/pull fan arrangement. Is that really perfect for the majority?


***edit*** the garage example aside, if you look on youtube for "quiet antminer" some people have gone to some extreme lengths to continue air-cooling the miner when perhaps another method could have been adopted.

You know the mineral oil just absorbs the heat anyway and mining hardware generates a lot of heat so you need some kind of cooling for the mineral oil itself equivalent to dissipating the same amount of heat the air cooling on the hardware does. The overall set up would be very expensive; that's the main reason it's not done.

Okay, I know at a glace this could come across as a stupid topic but I would really appreciate it if an articulate discussion came of this...

Cryptocurrency mining hardware is very expensive, and we should look after our rigs as best we can. After all, the build up of dust reduces air flow, raises temperatures, kills blades/miners.

However in my (limited) experience, the components that get killed on the boards aren't often the mining chips as you may think, but the often disregarded power regulating components. Mosfets, capacitors etc. Without this becoming a rant at some manufacturers that under-power their boards, over-stress the power supply circuitry, so it runs fast until it out lives the warranty. Some of us are doing this at a hobby level and don't have the high turnover of constantly getting the newest model of ASIC. We need to make our units last.

So my next point is regarding temperature. For one, people refer to overclocking ASICs and state the temperature that their interface is telling them the unit is at. Often this is wildly inaccurate, giving a surface temp of a PCB or once again measuring the mining chips and neglecting the Mosfets. Yes, when you overclock a mining chip it may raise in temp from 60 to 75, and you'd think with it's upper limit of 125 that'd be fine. But what's the temp of the Mosfets, capacitors etc we're stressing driving this equipment? As I said before it's not often the mining chip goes pop.

So my last point and the punchline really. The power supply components are often smaller than the mining chips in terms of surface area. They are also of unequal heights and this makes it very impractical to fit heatsinks. The designer places them in the airflow as best they can, but as I mentioned, with the enclosure around them this can be partly obstructed especially over time if not maintained. Is the answer not fluid cooled systems, immersion I mean, that give even heat exchange across every component? No matter how small?

I get that could be a logistical nightmare to ship. But I've seen very few hobbyists adapt their miners this way too. Am I missing something? Or if it ain't broken don't fix it?

But lets be honest on a technical level it would be no more complex than assembling a simple frame and dropping it in a fishtank of mineral oil. (A kind of gross simplification).
What about people that want to mine with an S7/S9 at home but can't put up with the noise?

A few thoughts.
Dan
Some interesting examples on youtube.