Will AI end online poker? | Bitcointalksearch.org

andolini82

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Quote from: RodeoX on May 21, 2015, 10:44:26 AM

I saw a thing in the news about a recent contest pitting computer AI against professional poker players. The people won, but just barely. Some of the payers were saying that they thought AI could get so good that it would end online poker. They argued that in the future bots will almost guarantee a win and humans would be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth the gamble. Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?

Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

In my oppinion, not only on poker but Ai or even a robot will take place on all job in our real word..

asuryan180

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Nice thought experiment, They will surly be good and able to beat a lot of poker players but the thing we have to remember is to win MTT's you need not only the discipline, math, luck etc more than anything you need the skill and the 'ballz' a big part of that emphasis on ballz! Last I checked AI does not have them, they can't be taught to risk everything in the last part of a 8 hour game on a total bluff. Saying that they will be well equipped to sit and grind cash tables all day or grind MTT's and just get paid but get in the pay a lot, the winner will always be human though.

RodeoX

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This seems a little bit related. A new learning robot. It learns how to do things by trying. Here it is figuring out how to assemble things. I think AI could already beat me at poker, but this guy looks like he will soon be a better dealer as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeVppkoloXs

Xiaoxiao

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AI won't end online poker... legislation crippled it.

Slark

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Quote from: RodeoX on May 21, 2015, 11:10:22 AM

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the responses. I can see how it is hard to instruct a computer what to do when playing a human mind.

It is hard, but it is no impossible. It's just the matter of time when we will have bots which can easily pass Turing test. Then it would be impossible to know if you are playing vs real man or machine.
But good thing is that it only affects online games, live casinos still will be unaffected and let's keep it that way.

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Quote from: shanem on May 26, 2015, 07:55:16 AM

Poker is a game of luck.
It is unlikely the computer can win humans consistently unless the AI knows the cards the other players have.

Not true, Poker does have a big component of skill in it. Thats why you have the likes of famous good players final tabling more often . The reason a bot has the edge is because the bot is able to make the right decisions at right time, which gives them the edge over other players. However there are always players who can beat bots as well.

shanem

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Poker is a game of luck.
It is unlikely the computer can win humans consistently unless the AI knows the cards the other players have.

bitbaby

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I don't think Chess Bots can be compared to Poker Bots. Chess is all based on skills and Poker to some extent is based on luck. I don't see AI ending online poker at all.

I have played with some bots on a few BTC poker sites previously and they got shut down, may be they weren't as developed as they might get in future but I still think they can be defeated.

Gronthaing

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Quote from: chriswen on May 25, 2015, 10:09:09 PM

Quote from: Gronthaing on May 25, 2015, 09:56:12 PM

@SyGambler, Xiaoxiao bots already win at one version of poker. Heads-up limit texas hold'em http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-08/texas-hold-em-mastered-in-months-by-computer-with-no-wrong-moves This version has less options. So computers can more easily calculate the best strategy to win. The other versions are more complicated so there aren't bots for that yet. But I don't see why that would be impossible to do. Or why bots can't take other players strategies into account to win more easily. Might take too long to do with current computers. But should be possible.

But players strategies aren't static. A good player needs to shift strategies.

May be true. Maybe that is why computers haven't won in other types of poker. But wouldn't that mean heads-up limit texas hold'em is fundamentally different from those other types? More than just players having less options during the game. I don't think that is true.

@SyGambler don't think it matters if it's playing a bad player or a shark. The bot Cepheus solved the heads-up limit game. The strategy is supposed to be perfect. Or did someone beat it? Haven't heard of it. Or that it didn't really find the solution to the game.

SyGambler

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Quote from: Gronthaing on May 25, 2015, 09:56:12 PM

@SyGambler, Xiaoxiao bots already win at one version of poker. Heads-up limit texas hold'em http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-08/texas-hold-em-mastered-in-months-by-computer-with-no-wrong-moves This version has less options. So computers can more easily calculate the best strategy to win. The other versions are more complicated so there aren't bots for that yet. But I don't see why that would be impossible to do. Or why bots can't take other players strategies into account to win more easily. Might take too long to do with current computers. But should be possible.

even heads up
the bot can beat a bad player but he can't beat sharks
good players always change gears
changing gears isn't just to change your strategy , changing gears means to change the way u bet , to change the position that u play more hands on it , to change your possible ranges
and it also means to move from loose to tight and from tight to loose
it's hard to predict the good players moves

that's why Daniel Negreanu said : poker is a game of people , and there is no way that a computer could beat a good player ( unless there is cheating of course )

chriswen

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Quote from: Gronthaing on May 25, 2015, 09:56:12 PM

@SyGambler, Xiaoxiao bots already win at one version of poker. Heads-up limit texas hold'em http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-08/texas-hold-em-mastered-in-months-by-computer-with-no-wrong-moves This version has less options. So computers can more easily calculate the best strategy to win. The other versions are more complicated so there aren't bots for that yet. But I don't see why that would be impossible to do. Or why bots can't take other players strategies into account to win more easily. Might take too long to do with current computers. But should be possible.

But players strategies aren't static. A good player needs to shift strategies.

chriswen

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I don't really think AI will end online poker.

Comparing poker to chess and backgammon does not make sense as those games you can just calculate all moves.

With poker it is quite easy to calculate odds and nash equilibriums.

But the game is more than that. It is about strategy. Your implied odds as a bot mean different things depending on the players strategy. And their optimal strategy is dependant on your strategy. And they don't know your strategy and you don't know their strategy.

There is not really a winning strategy with poker. You have to know what the strategy of the opponent to make a winning strategy. The good players change their strategies all the time.

And people also talk about the luck factor being a reason why poker AI can't beat humans. I think that is false. A winning AI should be able to keep playing and while poker does have high variance it'll eventually be able to be profitable if it has a real edge.

Gronthaing

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@SyGambler, Xiaoxiao bots already win at one version of poker. Heads-up limit texas hold'em http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-08/texas-hold-em-mastered-in-months-by-computer-with-no-wrong-moves This version has less options. So computers can more easily calculate the best strategy to win. The other versions are more complicated so there aren't bots for that yet. But I don't see why that would be impossible to do. Or why bots can't take other players strategies into account to win more easily. Might take too long to do with current computers. But should be possible.

Xiaoxiao

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The only thing bad about bots is that they don't tilt and dump. But they have no chance vs a good player in long run, especially if good player knows it's a bot.

SyGambler

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It's impossible by a bot to beat a poker player unless this bot knows player's cards
poker is the game of people , it's not chess
the bot may beat an ABC player but it's impossible to beat a shark that changes gears every couple of hands

Gronthaing

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Quote from: grendel25 on May 25, 2015, 08:27:17 PM

Absolutely, yes. And it won't be too long. However, there is a caveat: Online poker sites can adapt to overcome the AI threat and this actually wouldn't be too hard to do. However, it could mean an inconvenience or privacy intrusion to online gamblers. So anonymity, which is probably something online poker players love, may be decremented.

How can sites adapt to AI? Or anyone using bots to play? Don't think you can stop that. Unless sites demand players have a camera on all the time. And are able to see every move to prevent them using other computers or something. But most won't accept that.

grendel25

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Absolutely, yes. And it won't be too long. However, there is a caveat: Online poker sites can adapt to overcome the AI threat and this actually wouldn't be too hard to do. However, it could mean an inconvenience or privacy intrusion to online gamblers. So anonymity, which is probably something online poker players love, may be decremented.

Gronthaing

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Quote from: WhatTheGox on May 21, 2015, 10:50:26 AM

Quote from: RodeoX on May 21, 2015, 10:44:26 AM

I saw a thing in the news about a recent contest pitting computer AI against professional poker players. The people won, but just barely. Some of the payers were saying that they thought AI could get so good that it would end online poker. They argued that in the future bots will almost guarantee a win and humans would be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth the gamble. Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?

Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

I think computers can already beat players in fixed limit betting poker. The problem is no limit betting is such a complex game. Many bots have been built that can win in low stakes NL games online but none that win in tougher games afaik. Its only a matter of time though and its pretty interesting to see what the millions of poker players will do when the games end.

A new game will become popular most likely.

Maybe Go.

It is a perfect information game. So computers should win. But larger board games have too many options for that to be possible. For now at least.

Quote from: Gervais on May 21, 2015, 01:24:54 PM

Quote from: Rupert on May 21, 2015, 10:55:11 AM

Yes it will happen. In chess it is already reality. The world champion only has a chance against a not so good AI that fits his style. He gets the source code 3 months before the event, so that he can analyse everything. And then he looses.

So what? Poker will get a game of nerds coding AIs against security expert Nerds who check if a player is AI or human. Grin

I have some open source chess programs. Would like to get some open source poker AIs. I would like to open an Bitcoin/Altcoin casino, but not in Germany. I have to leave the country. Roll Eyes

Chess is a game of skill where ideally you need to plan moves in advance whereas poker is a game of chance down to the luck of the draw. The computer can't know what cards your opponents have either. I can't see how a computer would be any better than a human at it really.

Luck plays a part. True. But all the possibilities are still limited. And over the course of many games luck evens out. If the computer plays very well consistently it will win more often than not. And computers can bluff too making it even harder.

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Quote from: Rupert on May 21, 2015, 10:55:11 AM

Yes it will happen. In chess it is already reality. The world champion only has a chance against a not so good AI that fits his style. He gets the source code 3 months before the event, so that he can analyse everything. And then he looses.

So what? Poker will get a game of nerds coding AIs against security expert Nerds who check if a player is AI or human. Grin

I have some open source chess programs. Would like to get some open source poker AIs. I would like to open an Bitcoin/Altcoin casino, but not in Germany. I have to leave the country. Roll Eyes

Chess is a game of skill where ideally you need to plan moves in advance whereas poker is a game of chance down to the luck of the draw. The computer can't know what cards your opponents have either. I can't see how a computer would be any better than a human at it really.

WhatTheGox

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Quote from: cryptworld on May 21, 2015, 01:13:57 PM

I think it is not possible,because if it has not happened in other games or systems it won't happen in poker

Apparently backgammon used to be more popular decades ago and computing power killed off the games by solving how to play them.... its just something i've heard.

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Quote from: bitllionaire on May 21, 2015, 12:50:42 PM

I read an article that it would be possible only if quantum computers arrives

if its true then pheew, it will take a few years till everyone will start using quantum computers i think

cryptworld

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I think it is not possible,because if it has not happened in other games or systems it won't happen in poker

WhatTheGox

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Quote from: Xiaoxiao on May 21, 2015, 11:24:07 AM

Quote from: boopy265420 on May 21, 2015, 11:21:47 AM

The use of AI will finish the beauty of poker.There are lot of bots already being used in different games and If we watch by the point of site owners they are very good but some games like poker,chess are more interesting when these are played players vs players.Chess already has lost it attraction when it comes to play against bot/computer.This will be worst thing happening to poker if there will be use of AI ever.

Won't happen in poker, because there is too much human psychology involved with poker. Once an intelligent poker player knows he is up against a bot, the bot doesn't have much of a chance.

It could well happen to perhaps a level where maybe the best poker players in the world can still beat the bots. If that happens though it will still kill online poker as we know it.... because the games only run because of fish basically.

bitllionaire

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I read an article that it would be possible only if quantum computers arrives

twister

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Absolutely not, it may be able to beat normal level players that you meet on small poker rooms but when it comes to big boys, it can't. And as others mentioned it can't be compared to Chess.

Chess has set of rules/moves and based on those computers can build strategy and because it has super high computing power it can think of various outcomes of different moves 10-20 moves ahead, maybe more.

But Poker on the other hand no rules in regards to what cards will be dealt to players and what might get open as community cards, so it's a guess work and not based on exact facts and that's where a human brain has an advantage, it can bluff better than a computer.

cparsley

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Right, but that's taking in the calculation that every player the AI comes against will be as analytical as the bot is. We (anyone who's spent any time playing online) know, that definitely doesn't happen, so the AI would get puzzled, think the play is the new norm, and once again have bad algorhythms if its trying to learn off its play.

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Quote from: RodeoX on May 21, 2015, 11:10:22 AM

I can see how it is hard to instruct a computer what to do when playing a human mind.

I think the computer is not instructed on what to do when playing poker against a human but the computer play again itself

Quote

Claudico was not programmed to play poker, per se. It was given the rules of poker. Then it spent months playing more hands against itself

This means that the computer has been playing alot of hands and have store in data for alot for it. With this a lot of data I think the computer will calculate the risk of raising his blinds or folding if someone raise his blinds

Xiaoxiao

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Quote from: boopy265420 on May 21, 2015, 11:21:47 AM

The use of AI will finish the beauty of poker.There are lot of bots already being used in different games and If we watch by the point of site owners they are very good but some games like poker,chess are more interesting when these are played players vs players.Chess already has lost it attraction when it comes to play against bot/computer.This will be worst thing happening to poker if there will be use of AI ever.

Won't happen in poker, because there is too much human psychology involved with poker. Once an intelligent poker player knows he is up against a bot, the bot doesn't have much of a chance.

The worse thing that could happen is that seats can be filled with un sharp bots that don't spew as much as gamblers. To be honest, I'd rather play against bots than a lot of today's well informed players.

cparsley

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The problem that has been, and still will be for the AIs, at least in the short to intermediate term, is that poker, especially the no limit variety, is a game of incomplete information. Without that aforementioned incomplete information, an AI can't come to a 100% foolproof way of doing things, unlike a Chess AI can. However, it will be quite interesting to see where it goes from here as things advance.

boopy265420

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The use of AI will finish the beauty of poker.There are lot of bots already being used in different games and If we watch by the point of site owners they are very good but some games like poker,chess are more interesting when these are played players vs players.Chess already has lost it attraction when it comes to play against bot/computer.This will be worst thing happening to poker if there will be use of AI ever.

WhatTheGox

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Quote from: RussianRaibow on May 21, 2015, 10:58:09 AM

If u think logically, AI can calulate faster than human. That is why AI can beat human in chess. But, Poker is not all about calculation. It is also about luck. How come AI will beat human in luck. Luck is luck. Same for all... is not it ?

Luck is no so much a big deal since over a short term either human or AI would win anyway. AI would understand variance on a truly unique none tilting level and would play optimum poker on every decision - something that humans cant do.

RodeoX

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Interesting stuff. Thanks for the responses. I can see how it is hard to instruct a computer what to do when playing a human mind.

arallmuus

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Quote from: RodeoX on May 21, 2015, 10:44:26 AM

Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?

Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

Finally things are happening , Chess AI has proven up that they are better than human. I dont see any reason on why it is not happening in online poker as well.

this is good quote that is a strong point about why human will have a trouble beating this AI

Quote

"As a human, you always try to get in people's heads," said Bjorn Li, a 25-year-old from Hong Kong who played on the human team. "With this guy, you can't really do that, because he just plays according to his algorithms."

Indeed right, as a poker player, someone tend to see on the opponent's moves to determine if it is a bluff or not but with this AI it will impossible to do so.

If you are playing with profesional poker player for 10k hands , you will notice a similar strategy when the player is in some situation but if you are playing with AI , the strategy will be indeed different and if we are lucky to know this strategy then Im sure that it can change all over its strategy from scratch since it is a program

And this is a quote that support my point

Quote

Claudico was not programmed to play poker, per se. It was given the rules of poker. Then it spent months playing more hands against itself than humans have ever played, learning to navigate the dizzying number of possible game situations, a figure that exceeds the number of atoms in the universe

If the AI is so good to "program" his own program to play poker, I can see that this AI will be a tough opponent for professional poker player

lucasjkr

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Poker is not just numbers and odds, there's also a level of people reading and duplicity.

I could see computers crushing it at blackjack, but against a table of 9 others playing holdem, maybe I'm wrong, but I think they would struggle?

RussianRaibow

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If u think logically, AI can calulate faster than human. That is why AI can beat human in chess. But, Poker is not all about calculation. It is also about luck. How come AI will beat human in luck. Luck is luck. Same for all... is not it ?

Rupert

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Yes it will happen. In chess it is already reality. The world champion only has a chance against a not so good AI that fits his style. He gets the source code 3 months before the event, so that he can analyse everything. And then he looses.

So what? Poker will get a game of nerds coding AIs against security expert Nerds who check if a player is AI or human. Grin

I have some open source chess programs. Would like to get some open source poker AIs. I would like to open an Bitcoin/Altcoin casino, but not in Germany. I have to leave the country. Roll Eyes

WhatTheGox

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Quote from: RodeoX on May 21, 2015, 10:44:26 AM

I saw a thing in the news about a recent contest pitting computer AI against professional poker players. The people won, but just barely. Some of the payers were saying that they thought AI could get so good that it would end online poker. They argued that in the future bots will almost guarantee a win and humans would be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth the gamble. Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?

Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

I think computers can already beat players in fixed limit betting poker. The problem is no limit betting is such a complex game. Many bots have been built that can win in low stakes NL games online but none that win in tougher games afaik. Its only a matter of time though and its pretty interesting to see what the millions of poker players will do when the games end.

A new game will become popular most likely.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

I saw a thing in the news about a recent contest pitting computer AI against professional poker players. The people won, but just barely. Some of the payers were saying that they thought AI could get so good that it would end online poker. They argued that in the future bots will almost guarantee a win and humans would be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth the gamble. Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?

Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

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