will electrum wallet be backward compatible in near future ?

ABCbits

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Quote from: Coin-Keeper on September 17, 2021, 01:45:40 PM

A very simple idea would be to keep a copy of TAILS with your SEED. If you spin out a copy of TAILS "today" there is a current Electrum on it, AND you know the tails OS is going to support and run the Electrum software on the file. TAILS mounts in RAM and you can easily insert your SEED into Electrum (offline). Once Electrum is mounted you can ALWAYS get your PRIVATE keys or the master private key as needed. With those you will Always be able to move coins dozens of ways in the blockchain. Tails is relatively small. Remember the thing I like about this approach is that it contains ALL the needed operating system in "today's technology" to run the current Electrum software on the file. Call it a frozen in time approach with the Electrum file and the needed software to mount it and run it all in one small package. My .02

It might be not as simple as you think if OP thinking for long-term backward compatibility. The main reason is hardware compatibility, mainly compatibility on very old or new GPU (https://tails.boum.org/support/known_issues/graphics/index.en.html). Nevertheless, it'll work with few extra effort.

NotATether

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Electrum seeds have always been backward-compatible. Backward-compatible in the case of seed phrases means that the same seed phrases used in older versions will work in newer versions.

Quote from: ranochigo on September 15, 2021, 05:10:25 AM

Electrum or practically any other wallet has always maintained backwards compatibility, wherever possible. In the case of a seed, it wouldn't take much to preserve the backwards compatibility of it especially when the versioning is already clearly defined.

You actually don't have to store the source code at all. It is quite trivial to derive the private keys from the seeds and can be done easily with a little research and some programming skills. Rest assured, if some day the current seed system gets deprecated, then someone would probably just make a tool to derive the master private key regardless.

The only time I see where Electrum broken seed versioning compatibility was way back in 2.7 with "2fa" seeds, they forgot to define a new version for these seeds and now there are two different types of this seed version that use different derivation.

Nevertheless, Electrum did not stop parsing these types of seeds (another example of backward compatibility).

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Husires on September 15, 2021, 09:19:03 AM

before using it, I recommend you read to read Jameson Lopp reviews, he tested 35 different devices against a 2000 Fahrenheit flame along with a lot of other tests. Source: Metal Bitcoin Seed Storage Reviews

These reviews are good, but they all point to the same thing - stamping or etching your seed phrase on to stainless steel or titanium is consistently the best way of doing it. With that knowledge, there is no need whatsoever to spend $50-100 on such a device, when you can walk in to any local hardware store and buy a small piece of 5mm+ stainless steel for a few bucks. This also keeps your name and address off the database of a company which only sells crypto backup devices, which is a security risk if their database is ever hacked or leaked.

In terms of backwards compatibility, I wouldn't be overly concerned with either Electrum or BIP39 seed phrases. Both are widely used and widely understood. It's not like the process of turning a seed phrase in to private keys is highly classified information. Even if every bitcoin wallet on the planet disappeared tomorrow, there are dozens of third party tools and tens of thousands of people who could create new ones to extract private keys from seed phrases. If I was going to opt for one or the other for long term storage, I'd probably choose BIP39 since it is more widespread than Electrum and would cause the least amount of issues with someone unfamiliar with bitcoin trying to restore from it in the future.

Coin-Keeper

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A very simple idea would be to keep a copy of TAILS with your SEED. If you spin out a copy of TAILS "today" there is a current Electrum on it, AND you know the tails OS is going to support and run the Electrum software on the file. TAILS mounts in RAM and you can easily insert your SEED into Electrum (offline). Once Electrum is mounted you can ALWAYS get your PRIVATE keys or the master private key as needed. With those you will Always be able to move coins dozens of ways in the blockchain. Tails is relatively small. Remember the thing I like about this approach is that it contains ALL the needed operating system in "today's technology" to run the current Electrum software on the file. Call it a frozen in time approach with the Electrum file and the needed software to mount it and run it all in one small package. My .02

nc50lc

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:03:03 AM

-snip-
so lets say today i create a wallet using electrum and safely store the "seed phrase", and lets say after 15 years if i reinstall the then latest eletrum and create new wallet using my current seed phrase, i will be able to access my coins.

It's hard to give a safe answer to that since 15 years is too long to speculate, but:
So far, Electrum is doing a great job with its "backwards compatibility" after these years.
Versions before the new seed version system (Electrum <2.0 - older than Oct 2015~2012) can still be imported to today's latest version (v4.1.5) and can restore exactly the same wallet.
With exception to the oldest releases (v0.34 & older) with patched bugs and changes in the key derivation system.

pooya87

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 16, 2021, 12:53:22 AM

this looks promising, so i can use electrum's way to generating seed and if the electrum project gets dicontinued then i can always get back my coins.

It is always better to stick to the original software instead of third party tools. For example if they stop developing Electrum you will still be able to download the source code and compile it yourself. This way you can be sure that you will get the same exact keys, whereas using another project you may end up with some bugs specially one that has no tests.

Secal1986

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on September 15, 2021, 07:02:49 AM

Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:03:03 AM

or should i store copy of electrum's source code along with my seed phrase, for future use ? you know for worst case scenarios ?
so i could compile it then and could access my coins.

If you want to go on this path (storing source code), the source code from https://github.com/FarCanary/ElectrumSeedTester should be enough.
It's browser based and with it you can retrieve the private keys for your seed; and the tools/wallets will always allow import of private keys.

But as said, the chances you cannot recover from Electrum seed in the future are slim to none.

this looks promising, so i can use electrum's way to generating seed and if the electrum project gets dicontinued then i can always get back my coins.

thank you kindly.

Secal1986

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Quote from: dkbit98 on September 15, 2021, 06:57:27 AM

It's no mistake if you choose electrum or Bip39 standard.
Bip39 standard is supported by most wallets included Electrum, and you can always generate seed words totally offline with dices for example.
With Bip39 you are not limited only to Electrum, but you could also import them to most hardware wallets or you can use iancoleman's mnemonic code converter.

now i think, BIP39 will be better choice. rather than just using specific wallet's way to generating seed.
BIP39 is supported by majority wallets and it will be easier to get the coins.

i also found out that there is some disagreement between "electrum and bip39 supporters".

so either i choose electrum's way of creating seed or BIP39 way of creating seed (+ derivative path)

i hope i am not missing anything important here.

thank you kindly.

Husires

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:42:51 AM

i am planning to use one of those titanium seed storage , where i punch my seed phrase/ number.

before using it, I recommend you read to read Jameson Lopp reviews, he tested 35 different devices against a 2000 Fahrenheit flame along with a lot of other tests. Source: Metal Bitcoin Seed Storage Reviews
I made a short review here Bitcoin Seed Backup Tools
and this is short outline from the Research Methodology:

Simplicity is always the best: the more moving parts of the device, the worse in some tests.
304 Stainless Steel is the best.
Most devices pass the resistance test but are bad in temperature and wear, so try to reduce the number of moving parts.
Devices that can withstand high temperatures are often bad.

Don't be afraid on the software side, it's easy to extract the private key from electrum's wallet seed even if you don't want to use the software.

pooya87

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:42:51 AM

so hypothetically, lets say i die in this 15 years timeframe and some family members find the "titanium seed storage", then it should be easier for them to recover the coins too.

Generally speaking you should always keep up with bitcoin in general and not just Electrum and its development. For example see what has changed about the protocol itself. Doing it once or twice a year would be more than enough.
Leaving things and coming back in a very long time such as 15 years, you may find yourself in an entirely different environment with many things changed.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:03:03 AM

or should i store copy of electrum's source code along with my seed phrase, for future use ? you know for worst case scenarios ?
so i could compile it then and could access my coins.

If you want to go on this path (storing source code), the source code from https://github.com/FarCanary/ElectrumSeedTester should be enough.
It's browser based and with it you can retrieve the private keys for your seed; and the tools/wallets will always allow import of private keys.

But as said, the chances you cannot recover from Electrum seed in the future are slim to none.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:03:03 AM

i just wanted to make sure, whether the electrum wallet will be backward compatible in near future ?

Nobody knows what is going to happen with Electrum wallet in future, but that is the beauty of open source projects, anyone can contribute or fork it if they ever stop with development.

Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:03:03 AM

e.g. bip39 or some other.

It's no mistake if you choose electrum or Bip39 standard.
Bip39 standard is supported by most wallets included Electrum, and you can always generate seed words totally offline with dices for example.
With Bip39 you are not limited only to Electrum, but you could also import them to most hardware wallets or you can use iancoleman's mnemonic code converter.

Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:03:03 AM

or should i store copy of electrum's source code along with my seed phrase, for future use ? you know for worst case scenarios ?

There is no need or benefits for storing electrum source code with your seed words.

Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:42:51 AM

so hypothetically, lets say i die in this 15 years timeframe and some family members find the "titanium seed storage", then it should be easier for them to recover the coins too.

Most issues I saw when people are trying to recover wallets with using of non-default derivation paths, so I would make sure to engrave that along with wallet used and seed words.
You need to provide good instructions for your family members and explain them how bitcoin works, better sooner than later.

ranochigo

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:42:51 AM

i am planning to use one of those titanium seed storage , where i punch my seed phrase/ number.

so hypothetically, lets say i die in this 15 years timeframe and some family members find the "titanium seed storage", then it should be easier for them to recover the coins too.

i guess, i could also mention

Electrum 4.1.5

on top of the seed storage case, so the person could understand where this seed is created and what needs to be done/tools to be used to recover the coins. (so research and some programming skills are not necessary for them.) just my thought.

Yes. It is highly unlikely that a recovery tool with detailed instructions wouldn't be available for a wallet as popular as Electrum. Even when Multibit was discontinued, there were detailed steps to extract the keys.

Secal1986

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Quote from: ranochigo on September 15, 2021, 05:10:25 AM

Electrum or practically any other wallet has always maintained backwards compatibility, wherever possible. In the case of a seed, it wouldn't take much to preserve the backwards compatibility of it especially when the versioning is already clearly defined.

You actually don't have to store the source code at all. It is quite trivial to derive the private keys from the seeds and can be done easily with a little research and some programming skills. Rest assured, if some day the current seed system gets deprecated, then someone would probably just make a tool to derive the master private key regardless.

i am planning to use one of those titanium seed storage , where i punch my seed phrase/ number.

so hypothetically, lets say i die in this 15 years timeframe and some family members find the "titanium seed storage", then it should be easier for them to recover the coins too.

i guess, i could also mention

Electrum 4.1.5

on top of the seed storage case, so the person could understand where this seed is created and what needs to be done/tools to be used to recover the coins. (so research and some programming skills are not necessary for them.) just my thought.

thank you kindly.

ranochigo

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Electrum or practically any other wallet has always maintained backwards compatibility, wherever possible. In the case of a seed, it wouldn't take much to preserve the backwards compatibility of it especially when the versioning is already clearly defined.

You actually don't have to store the source code at all. It is quite trivial to derive the private keys from the seeds and can be done easily with a little research and some programming skills. Rest assured, if some day the current seed system gets deprecated, then someone would probably just make a tool to derive the master private key regardless.

jackg

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Quote from: Secal1986 on September 15, 2021, 05:03:03 AM

or should i store copy of electrum's source code along with my seed phrase, for future use ? you know for worst case scenarios ?
so i could compile it then and could access my coins.

You're probably better off using that method as a just in case.

There'll probably always be copies of electrum out there but if you already have one yourself, you'll know you've always got it then and you can extract stuff from electrum to get access to the funds (like private keys and Master private keys).

Secal1986

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i am looking to store bitcoins for long term using electrum wallet .

so i found this helpful https://electrum.readthedocs.io/en/latest/coldstorage.html

from my understanding if i keep my seed phrase secure, i can recreate my wallet later.

i just wanted to make sure, whether the electrum wallet will be backward compatible in near future ?

so lets say today i create a wallet using electrum and safely store the "seed phrase", and lets say after 15 years if i reinstall the then latest eletrum and create new wallet using my current seed phrase, i will be able to access my coins .

or is there any other specific method , i should use for such long term cold wallet creation ?

e.g. bip39 or some other.

thank you kindly.

or should i store copy of electrum's source code along with my seed phrase, for future use ? you know for worst case scenarios ?
so i could compile it then and could access my coins.

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