Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust (COIN ETF) to Launch in 2014

wachtwoord

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: wachtwoord on September 17, 2014, 11:32:20 AM

ETF is not priced in at all. Just watch the price when they announce this is approved.

Absolutely it is - People might think to hold for a week or 2 here on Bitstamp and Huobi - but if price doubles that means the ETF price would double, therefore mean the USD wont be buying the coin off Nasdaq at a greater loop they will just wait until they figure where their entry level wants to be.

Its not like these coins are NEW and being purchased as such, these are old coins and without new fiat they sit in Winklviis hands, is this really what they want? More than likely no as they want to make USD off fees in the business otherwise they would have just held the coins in paper wallets themselves and saved a shit ton of money in not paying to get ETF passed.

I'm very sure you are very wrong. We'll see when the ETF is approved who of us is correct

wachtwoord

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Posted this in another thread to response to Cluster2k's comment - thought it would be good here

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Cluster2k on September 17, 2014, 08:45:50 AM

The bitcoin ETF has already been priced in, as has increased retailer acceptance of bitcoin. We know it's going to happen, just not exactly when. Market participants read the same forums we do.

We need some good old markus and willy inspired manipulation of the market to make this rocket go boom again.

Yes & No

The ETF has been priced in accordingly in my views also, what we don't know is what is Winklvii is going to do with the USD income from the initial sells of the ETF shares.

There will be 1M shares (200,000 BTC) - which equate 1 share to 0.2BTC in principle (excluding holding fees, trading costs, etc) - So assuming right now at $450 per BTC a shares value is $90USD. Making the full 1M shares if they choose to sell that way worth $90 M USD (assuming someone buys all instantly)

Now what does the Winklvii do

1. Pocket $90 USD and hold onto their own personal BTC stash
2. Buy more BTC with for themselves and make profits off of holding/trades in ETF
3. Buy more BTC to add to the 1M shares at same rate of 0.2BTC/ETF share
4. Combo of all options

This is what is not priced into ETF

ETF is not priced in at all. Just watch the price when they announce this is approved.

maker88

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Quote from: ajareselde on September 17, 2014, 10:59:03 AM

Quote from: addroup on September 17, 2014, 10:08:05 AM

Quote from: MNDan on September 17, 2014, 10:03:55 AM

Why would anyone be "excited" about this ETF when Bitcoin has dropped over 50% of it's value since the beginning of the year? Now if it becomes available around the same time that we break this losing streak, then things could get crazy quick, but right now it wouldn't be looking like a very good investment to anyone IMHO.

It's a good investment because it dropped over 50%, not the contrary, now bitcoin is undervalued and will recover fast.

not everything is as black and white as you see it.
the whole market is still not big enough to not allow manipulation.
there is simply no way of knowing what will happen next, but as long as its still being talked about, its good to invest.
thats my opinion anyways..

Not big enough to allow manipulation? The bitcoin market is obviously hugely manipulated and has been all year. Small markets are not harder to manipulate than large ones, quite the opposite actually.

ajareselde

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Quote from: addroup on September 17, 2014, 10:08:05 AM

Quote from: MNDan on September 17, 2014, 10:03:55 AM

Why would anyone be "excited" about this ETF when Bitcoin has dropped over 50% of it's value since the beginning of the year? Now if it becomes available around the same time that we break this losing streak, then things could get crazy quick, but right now it wouldn't be looking like a very good investment to anyone IMHO.

It's a good investment because it dropped over 50%, not the contrary, now bitcoin is undervalued and will recover fast.

not everything is as black and white as you see it.
the whole market is still not big enough to not allow manipulation.
there is simply no way of knowing what will happen next, but as long as its still being talked about, its good to invest.
thats my opinion anyways..

addroup

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Quote from: MNDan on September 17, 2014, 10:03:55 AM

Why would anyone be "excited" about this ETF when Bitcoin has dropped over 50% of it's value since the beginning of the year? Now if it becomes available around the same time that we break this losing streak, then things could get crazy quick, but right now it wouldn't be looking like a very good investment to anyone IMHO.

It's a good investment because it dropped over 50%, not the contrary, now bitcoin is undervalued and will recover fast.

sally87

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Quote from: MNDan on September 17, 2014, 10:03:55 AM

Why would anyone be "excited" about this ETF when Bitcoin has dropped over 50% of it's value since the beginning of the year? Now if it becomes available around the same time that we break this losing streak, then things could get crazy quick, but right now it wouldn't be looking like a very good investment to anyone IMHO.

Hello, this is creating a bubble. Don't you think? You read the document from the winklevoss? You saw that on btc-e the price went up to 3200€. And nobody knew why. Look this at youtube. ''Bitcoin naar 3200€ gestegen''.

MNDan

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Why would anyone be "excited" about this ETF when Bitcoin has dropped over 50% of it's value since the beginning of the year? Now if it becomes available around the same time that we break this losing streak, then things could get crazy quick, but right now it wouldn't be looking like a very good investment to anyone IMHO.

sally87

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When they come with it, the big boys will buy a lot first of all. And there is no regulation now so they can do that. And people from the nasdaq will do it either. Look on google and type bitcoin 3200euro on bitcointalk. They are not stupid and before the good news comes they will buy a lot. And nasdaq will not ban this, because David Lavalle said allready about Bitcoin to Nasdaq, ''It's a win-win situation". So what you think if the Vice-President of Nasdaq say this in a interview?

CryptoCarmen

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Quote from: stonerider on September 17, 2014, 08:24:24 AM

Has it been approved yet?

Might never be.

stonerider

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Has it been approved yet?

ltbharley

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: wachtwoord on September 17, 2014, 08:05:37 AM

Does anyone whether this will be public information immediately? I mean, it really is quite simple to take advantage of such knowledge in advance in the Bitcoin market and I doubt there exist any laws against it.

If/When the ETF is approved within 2 hours of approval it will be on the major media sites.

After that it will be 2-6 weeks before its released on the Nasdaq for purchasing, this will give people time to anticipate it. Some already are ready for it. Wink

2 hours is too much, by that time the value would have increased by 100%... I'd want to know the news after 1 second.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: wachtwoord on September 17, 2014, 08:05:37 AM

Does anyone whether this will be public information immediately? I mean, it really is quite simple to take advantage of such knowledge in advance in the Bitcoin market and I doubt there exist any laws against it.

If/When the ETF is approved within 2 hours of approval it will be on the major media sites.

After that it will be 2-6 weeks before its released on the Nasdaq for purchasing, this will give people time to anticipate it. Some already are ready for it. Wink

Okay, so an approval cannot be kept confidential (or tentatively approved) for a week or something before it's made transparent to the world?

wachtwoord

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Quote from: trotter55 on September 16, 2014, 12:48:26 PM

Quote from: grappa_barricata on September 16, 2014, 12:36:36 PM

When it will be about to be launched you will recognize it by the increased liquidity in the books of the exchanges. At that point you'll know that the launch is a matter of days.

If it launches the regulators will have to announce they have approved it first. Once the regulators either reject, or approve it they will announce their decision.

Does anyone whether this will be public information immediately? I mean, it really is quite simple to take advantage of such knowledge in advance in the Bitcoin market and I doubt there exist any laws against it.

g35fan

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Quote from: lyth0s on September 15, 2014, 01:39:27 AM

How long has it said "The Trust is a common law trust, formed on [ ], 2014 under New York law
pursuant to the Trust Agreement..." for? Was it recently updated to state this?

Bingo. It used to say 2013 and was updated to say 2014. It could very easily be updated to say 2015.

View this link to the way back machine screenshot back in 2013:

http://web.archive.org/web/20131025054554/http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/winklevoss-bitcoin-trust-909930-72927

grappa_barricata

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Quote from: trotter55 on September 16, 2014, 12:48:26 PM

Quote from: grappa_barricata on September 16, 2014, 12:36:36 PM

When it will be about to be launched you will recognize it by the increased liquidity in the books of the exchanges. At that point you'll know that the launch is a matter of days.

If it launches the regulators will have to announce they have approved it first. Once the regulators either reject, or approve it they will announce their decision.

That's a good point. Lets watch both the books depth and the official news channels then. I don't think it can be regulated out at this point.

trotter55

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Quote from: grappa_barricata on September 16, 2014, 12:36:36 PM

When it will be about to be launched you will recognize it by the increased liquidity in the books of the exchanges. At that point you'll know that the launch is a matter of days.

If it launches the regulators will have to announce they have approved it first. Once the regulators either reject, or approve it they will announce their decision.

grappa_barricata

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When it will be about to be launched you will recognize it by the increased liquidity in the books of the exchanges. At that point you'll know that the launch is a matter of days.

sally87

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Quote from: Hunyadi on September 16, 2014, 06:57:18 AM

Quote from: sally87 on September 16, 2014, 06:12:25 AM

Yes i'm here again Cheesy

Read this article. http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/07/10/nasdaq-coin-winklevoss-bitcoin-fund-ticker/

Do you have more links to old articles? Roll Eyes

David Lavalle said this 5 weeks ago. And for me this are not new articles, butt maybe for other people it is? Or i talk bullshit now. I don't thinks so. Everyday new people want to dicover Bitcoin or there come new members to bitcointalk. So for them it's interesting,l correct?

Hunyadi

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Quote from: sally87 on September 16, 2014, 06:12:25 AM

Yes i'm here again Cheesy

Read this article. http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/07/10/nasdaq-coin-winklevoss-bitcoin-fund-ticker/

Do you have more links to old articles? Roll Eyes

sally87

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Yes i'm here again Cheesy

Read this article. http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/07/10/nasdaq-coin-winklevoss-bitcoin-fund-ticker/

sally87

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And read this people! http://moneymorning.com/2014/07/07/winklevoss-bitcoin-etf-ticker-to-be-nasdaq-coin/
Bitcoin will rise again. Cheesy

faince222

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Oh yeah, this is a great news ! Can't wait to see it in action Tongue

New investor, much speculation, a new BIG BUBBLE is coming ! Grin

sally87

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This will go to Nasdaq! Look what David Lavalle says about Bitcoin. It's a matter of time! The bubble is here again! Cheesy

http://cointelegraph.com/news/112245/nasdaqs-lavalle-bitcoin-etf-is-a-turning-point

Put this on your browser and read!

phoenix1

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IMO we will get plenty of notice if/when COIN is about to launch ... there is no way the twins will want to sell their stash for less than possible. Ergo, when they are ready to launch, they will announce well in advance of the opening in anticipation of a run up in price, probably with a little help from them, prior to listing.

Whether they would announce when it is approved is another matter ... what better tactic then to know you had approval, accumulate more and then announce > profit

Caveat: I have no idea if the general public would have a way to know if the ETF is approved outside of the twins announcing. Anyone ?

EDIT: TBH I have serious doubts about the short term impact of COIN approval other than people trying to front run the launch. Longer term, sure, probably a great investment vehicle for people to gain for exposure to BTC in a way that can go in pension funds etc ...
All depends on the demand at the time, which remains to be seen
That view is in part based upon the stagnation of Silbert's BIT

sally87

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Quote from: wachtwoord on September 15, 2014, 06:28:56 AM

It's supiscious how quiet it is around this for so long.

Yes! There is so much postive news and the price don't increase. I think the plans are allready finish and by dec 2014/jan 2015 the explosion comes. The bitcoin is so innovative that they can't refuse it. I can't wait to pay in the stores for my food, clothes etc with bitcoins.
There's to much money and investments in bitcoin that it will be at the nasdaq. If that don't happen i'll get nuts with monetary system nowadays. I can't wait when this system is destroyed!!!!

weex

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Quote from: lyth0s on September 15, 2014, 02:50:57 AM

For every 5 shares of the COIN ETF the winklevoss brothers will hold 1 bitcoin. If there is demand over the amount of coins they already have, the will then buy 1 bitcoin from the market for every new 5 share purchases so if it takes off it can create some serious demand for bitcoins.

That's not how it works. COIN doesn't need to create and destroy shares or otherwise manage the price. There are some accredited entities who will act as arbitrageurs. That is, if the price is different for the ETF on Nasdaq vs. Bitcoin at Bitstamp, they will buy at one place and sell at the other until the prices adjust just as they do today across Bitcoin exchanges.

giveBTCpls

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What has to happen is that the government has to ignore it for a long time, or at least do nothing for a long time.

Without government intervention, I don't really see much of an end in sight. I think the Winklevoss ETF is going to be huge for BTC, as it will open up BTC for easy trades. It might be volatile, but it's pretty easy to hedge against that volatility with standard portfolio theory, and given the historical prices of BTC, it looks pretty good for a crazy volatile security.

My prediction is that once the Winklevoss thing goes up, shit loads of people will buy very small amounts, driving the price crazy. This attracts another big spike in attention from the market as it goes up, and another when price drops off a cliff two weeks in. From there, we'll have decently wide awareness, and we'll see a steady growth with massive bubbles every few months. After a certain amount of time, price would probably be insulated against bubbles though, since we tend to recover very quickly.

Bitcopia

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Quote from: razorramon on September 15, 2014, 11:03:42 AM

Quote from: maker88 on September 15, 2014, 09:19:36 AM

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand what an etf is? Cheesy

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand that there are people from outside the USA? Cheesy

You do realize that ETF's are not exclusively a U.S. investment vehicle right? There are ETF's listed on foreign markets. Also, U.S. market ETF's are available to foreign investors as well.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: razorramon on September 15, 2014, 11:03:42 AM

Quote from: maker88 on September 15, 2014, 09:19:36 AM

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand what an etf is? Cheesy

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand that there are people from outside the USA? Cheesy

A few days ago I saw someone on an American new station (forgot which) who didn't seem to have gotten the memo that Yugoslavia is no longer a nation.

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Quote from: maker88 on September 15, 2014, 09:19:36 AM

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand what an etf is? Cheesy

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand that there are people from outside the USA? Cheesy

cdooer

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Quote from: maker88 on September 15, 2014, 09:19:36 AM

Quote from: cdooer on September 15, 2014, 07:36:10 AM

Quote from: lyth0s on September 15, 2014, 02:50:57 AM

For every 5 shares of the COIN ETF the winklevoss brothers will hold 1 bitcoin. If there is demand over the amount of coins they already have, the will then buy 1 bitcoin from the market for every new 5 share purchases so if it takes off it can create some serious demand for bitcoins.

Thx for the extremely simple explanation, I had no idea that's how it was going to work. I feel like I've learned something today...that's it, time to go home, even though I just got to work. Cheesy

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand what an etf is? Cheesy

That's a good question...but who says I'm out of high school? OK, I'm outta high school...but traditional investments have never been my thing...or anything with numbers really.

maker88

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Quote from: spud21 on September 15, 2014, 08:22:27 AM

Quote from: wezphoto on September 15, 2014, 08:08:36 AM

Most people here is waiting for the ETF, it could really change bitcoin's destiny.

The thing in Jersey does not seem to have made much difference. I'm not sure about the ETF,

A hedge fund trading bitcoin is VASTLY different than an etf.

maker88

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Quote from: cdooer on September 15, 2014, 07:36:10 AM

Quote from: lyth0s on September 15, 2014, 02:50:57 AM

For every 5 shares of the COIN ETF the winklevoss brothers will hold 1 bitcoin. If there is demand over the amount of coins they already have, the will then buy 1 bitcoin from the market for every new 5 share purchases so if it takes off it can create some serious demand for bitcoins.

Thx for the extremely simple explanation, I had no idea that's how it was going to work. I feel like I've learned something today...that's it, time to go home, even though I just got to work. Cheesy

How are there people out of highshool who don't understand what an etf is? Cheesy

Elvis Trout

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Exante has a bitcoin fund too, doesn't seem to have many buyers.

spud21

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Quote from: wezphoto on September 15, 2014, 08:08:36 AM

Most people here is waiting for the ETF, it could really change bitcoin's destiny.

The thing in Jersey does not seem to have made much difference. I'm not sure about the ETF,

wezphoto

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Most people here is waiting for the ETF, it could really change bitcoin's destiny.

Fabrizio89

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They said it for a while that in Q4 2014 may be the launch date.
On a side note, the first gold ETF was launched on November 2004 if I'm not mistaken. It would be too funny to see the next big thing go to wall street 10 years later, will make people think how fast technology is moving nowadays.

cdooer

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Quote from: lyth0s on September 15, 2014, 02:50:57 AM

For every 5 shares of the COIN ETF the winklevoss brothers will hold 1 bitcoin. If there is demand over the amount of coins they already have, the will then buy 1 bitcoin from the market for every new 5 share purchases so if it takes off it can create some serious demand for bitcoins.

Thx for the extremely simple explanation, I had no idea that's how it was going to work. I feel like I've learned something today...that's it, time to go home, even though I just got to work. Cheesy

zimmah

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Since they are essentially selling their own bitcoin first, aren't they just waiting for the price to rise before making the big launch officially?

Maybe they are already approved, but wait for the price to rise before bringing the news, so their first coins can sell for a bigger profit?

wachtwoord

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It's supiscious how quiet it is around this for so long.

Bejkn

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come on, boys, I wait for you buying your ETF much

clickhero

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Quote from: lyth0s on September 15, 2014, 02:50:57 AM

For every 5 shares of the COIN ETF the winklevoss brothers will hold 1 bitcoin. If there is demand over the amount of coins they already have, the will then buy 1 bitcoin from the market for every new 5 share purchases so if it takes off it can create some serious demand for bitcoins.

Thanks for the simple explanation, it's the first time I can understand a thing about ETF Tongue

lyth0s

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For every 5 shares of the COIN ETF the winklevoss brothers will hold 1 bitcoin. If there is demand over the amount of coins they already have, the will then buy 1 bitcoin from the market for every new 5 share purchases so if it takes off it can create some serious demand for bitcoins.

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Quote from: medUSA on September 15, 2014, 02:38:39 AM

The ETF has received this status a few months ago. This just means it is just reserving the ticker "coin", it doesn't mean it will be trading on NASDAQ any time soon. There are reserved tickers on NASDAQ but never traded for years.

medUSA

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The ETF has received this status a few months ago. This just means it is just reserving the ticker "coin", it doesn't mean it will be trading on NASDAQ any time soon. There are reserved tickers on NASDAQ but never traded for years.

FNG

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Quote from: bitschool on September 15, 2014, 01:54:35 AM

How will ETF affect the price, why is it so important?

It provides an on-ramp to Trillions of Dollars. It gives bitcoin additional legitimacy. It allows institutions that are bound by rules to enter the market.

bitschool

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How will ETF affect the price, why is it so important?

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lyth0s

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How long has it said "The Trust is a common law trust, formed on [ ], 2014 under New York law
pursuant to the Trust Agreement..." for? Was it recently updated to state this?

Jamacn

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now, 2014 is coming to the end for a few months

Hunyadi

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Excellent news! After the launch, "traditional" investors can for example hedge their portfolios easily.

souspeed

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Quote from: Possum577 on September 15, 2014, 12:49:45 AM

I can't wait for this to become a reality. It'll be nice to have an ETF like way to speculate on the BTC price.

Yes, I agree, can't wait to see this ETF in action.

However; I can't find any confirmation about the year 2014 as the launch year for the ETF.

Possum577

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Loose lips sink sigs!

I can't wait for this to become a reality. It'll be nice to have an ETF like way to speculate on the BTC price.

Raystonn

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Quote from: doggieTattoo on September 14, 2014, 11:34:31 PM

Quote from: Raystonn on September 14, 2014, 11:31:55 PM

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/winklevoss-bitcoin-trust-909930-72927

"The Trust is a common law trust, formed on [ ], 2014 under New York law"

I sure do hope that you are right about this. I think however that it is likely the 2014 is just a placeholder with them assuming that the SEC will approve their application and allow the IPO by the end of the year.

[ ] is a placeholder. If they didn't know the year they'd have included it in the [ ].

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Quote from: Raystonn on September 14, 2014, 11:31:55 PM

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/winklevoss-bitcoin-trust-909930-72927

"The Trust is a common law trust, formed on [ ], 2014 under New York law"

I sure do hope that you are right about this. I think however that it is likely the 2014 is just a placeholder with them assuming that the SEC will approve their application and allow the IPO by the end of the year.

Raystonn

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http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/winklevoss-bitcoin-trust-909930-72927

"The Trust is a common law trust, formed on [ ], 2014 under New York law..."

Topic: Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust (COIN ETF) to Launch in 2014 (Read 5257 times)