Topic: [Withdrawed Offer] Butterfly labs & solar loan (Read 5343 times)

Where in Ontario do you live?
http://www.hydroone.com/RegulatoryAffairs/RatesPrices/Pages/default.aspx

There is absolutely no way to pay even 0.12/KWh at any time ever. According to the link, even if you are using the non- "time of use" based pricing...

Or am I missing something?

Edit: I know my link is for after May 2012 but prices before then were still not that high.

We have huge incentives up here for Solar Installations.  There are companies around here that will lease your land just to install their equipment

interesting

I did some research and a 10kw solar array on my roof would net about 9 000+ a year after government rebates and the feed in tarriff from the power company is taken into account  

So the money isnt in solar bitcoin mining it is in the solar system itself.

Im gathering some exact figures on hardware and installation costs. The upfront cost is rather large.

If you solar mine, will you also solo mine? You could be a solo solar miner!

Please report back what you find!

Doing my own research i feel there is propaganda to get less people to solar mine....

Someone should setup a solar array on their roof and sell shares on glbse if its that profitable

You can buy solar panels for $1 a watt.  You can buy a 1000W grid tie inverter with MPPT for $269 on ebay.  Thus for  $1269 you can run about a gigahash using old equipment.  If it is just sitting around anyway it is free.   In 5 hours a day, you will earn 1 btc a week.  Take about 4 years to pay it off in BTC.

That's insane!

Just make sure they don't do what the government of New South Wales did and renege on their long-term contractual agreements when they realise they've been paying too much and sending themselves broke!

Yeah I'd do that in a heartbeat if they had such an incentive here... as it is, in my county, they actually pay LESS per kwh for electricity sold back to them.  They'll pay you something like $0.077/kwh, and then resell it for $0.086/kwh.  And that only kicks in if you have 10,000 kwh or more!  Otherwise, you can only get credit against your bill...  There's local and state incentives to help with the installation costs, but I think it only covers up to $4,000 between the two...

Solar panels are getting cheaper, which is good.  It may yet be economical to install them in the future even without any government incentives!

Admittedly though, a "professionally installed" system will cost you $40K for the same capacity. But it still pays for itself in like 2 years. with 8 more years of profit (minimum) to be expected at $18K a year.

That said though, the installers are the ones making a killing on this. Since the demand for installs is high while the taking is ripe (before the government comes to their senses and changes the price they are paying) lol... The installers are getting more work than they can shake a stick at. And at a going markup of like $30K for their labour basically. Even if you are talking 300 man-hours of time to install a 10KW system (which it's nowhere near) you would be looking at paying $20/hr to all your people (including yourself) and still walking away with well over $20K in profit per install

And yeah, it's fantastic. When I learned about the program I had to spend like 2 weeks researching it because I refused to believe it. The "Too good to be true" alarm was going off like mad...

But no, it's all true, our government has just completely lost their senses lol... Stark raving mad. "Let's pay the general public over 5 times what we charge for some renewable energy! That will convince people to put up solar panels!"... I'm guessing someone forecasted that the cost of electricity will go up by that much well within the 20year contract making it worthwhile for the government. But 500% inflation in price over 20 years? That's hard to swallow lol...

WOW.

The irony is how unsustainable the model to subsidize sustainable energies is...

I'd like to point out that in Ontario Canada, the current electricity cost is around $0.15/KWh (it's all tiered so hard to calculate accurately but it's around there)

But with Solar if you go grid tied, the government will sign a 20 year contract with you, with a locked in rate of $0.802/KWh paying you for power generated by a solar setup. It has a max of 10KW capacity though per contract.

With those rates, if you have the skills to build the panels yourself, and frames, and install it all, you can do a system for about $1/W of capacity if you go for a full 10KW system (give or take, and assuming you do all labour yourself)

for a $10K investment you can generate 10KW (peak capacity) which likely averages out to something like 3KW in summer, and 1.5KW in winter spread across 24H based on our sun exposure here. That would generate about $2K a month in summer and $1K a month in winter. Assuming your gear lasts 10year without needing replacement, that puts the income per year at around $18K

But that all has nothing to do with bitcoin mining Other than that in that home with the solar array, electricity is essentially free after the first 6-8 months.

(and yes anyone who owns a home with enough roof space, and enough sun exposure who doesn't invest in this is insane!) lol

That's dang nice Burt!  Thanks for the details. 

I just happened to get in near the peak of the rebates by our power company in 2009.

7.35 KW system (7,350 Utility rating watts, 6,300 PTC rating watts)


The actual break even depends on the average cost of electricity and my average production over the next few years.  Using 10,041 KWh/year as my estimated average production (close enough and it makes the math very easy):


I guess I should really start saying and thinking 7 years because the price of natural gas is falling and expected to fall or remain the same so conventional production costs will probably remain pretty low for the next few years.

Not that anyone mentioned free electricity, i for one had the preassumption that solar panels degrade in effciency and can obviously bust. Im still willing to pursue this idea just not with other peoples money when they are expecting to be paid back in less then a year or so.
I just dont have $2000 to throw down to participate in a fun solar power bitcoin mining rig at the moment ;(

Free electricity = free money. I think we've all had these thoughts at some point.

6 years is by far the best break even I've ever heard of being achieved with solar.  Can you give more details on your setup?

I'm always happy and I am very grateful of DeathAndTaxes insightful knowledge that i was clearly unaware of, just disappointed with this particular situation outcome.

Sorry, lenders look at financials. They don't deal in sentimentalities. You should be happy. D&T has saved you from a poor financial decision.

Agreed, This is way over my head for a loan.

This.

We've got a grid-tied system. Without a feed in tariff, the investment is marginal. But here, the gobbermint pays us more than twice the price to buy off us the excess electricity we produce than what we pay for their coal-fired power, so it's one of the better investments out there. I do think though that the feed in tariff distorts the market and will make electricity more expensive in the long run because it kills off a lot of potential alternative clean energy solutions and creates huge problems for the distribution networks as they now have to cope with power going both ways and still have the capacity to keep the lights on when it's cloudy.

^^ Off grid solar is the most expensive way to make electricity there is AFAIK.  Burning dirt (coal) is the cheapest.  I have a grid tied 7.5 KW system for my house and I love it.  Here in Colorado we get plenty of sunshine year round and the power company pays me dollar for dollar (I simply run the meter backward during the day) for all of my production up to my consumption for the year.  At the end of the year they send me a check for my yearly overproduction but they only pay me their cost of production for my overproduction.  So instead of giving me $0.12 per KWh they only give me about $0.02 per KWh, nice profit margin for them since they burn lots of dirt.

Given this sytem I will break even in about 6 years but only because the power company paid for over half of my system in rebates.  If I had to pay for the system out of my pocked my break even would be more like 12-15 years, depending on how fast the panels and inverters wear out.

You have a nice idea but I fear it will probably be too expensive to implement and run.

DeathandTaxes, ruining dreams just like death and taxes 

Your array and batteries aren't even in the ballpark. A 160W array puts out 160W per hour in PEAK sunlight.  Peak sunlight being 100% mid-day at the equator sunlight.   Depending on where you live your average solar insolation is likely 4-5 hours per day.  So in 24 hour day you only get about 4 to 5 times the nameplate rating of the panel.  A solar insolation of 4.5 means in 24 hours you get the equivelent solar energy as 4.5 hours of peak sunlight at the equator.  A 160W panel only outputs 160W under peak sunlight.  That doesn't mean it only works for 4.5 hours it just means that it isn't always outputting 160W. 

So 160W /1000 * 4.5 = 0.72 kWh daily.
1 Single @ 80W * 24 = 1.92 kWh daily.  
You would run out of juice 1/3 of the way through the day ... every day.
1920W / 4.5 = 430W.  
So your array cost is now ~$1500.

However it gets worse.  Without a charge controller you are looking at losing 20% to 30% of your power due to voltage mismatch between panel output (variable) and the battery optimal charging voltage (also variable).  Given the cost of solar panels the charge controller is cheaper than trying to "brute force" it.  So that adds another $150 or so.

Still we haven't even got to the really bad news.  That 4.5 hours is avg solar insolation, it is roughly 35% less in the winter.  So unless you plan to run your rigs only 9 months out of the year you need to size your array so it is large enough even in winter.  So we are more like looking at 640W array (~$2000).  Yup that also means you will be wasting the excess power it produces in the summer.  No way around that limitation on off-grid system.

Your battery will need at least 1.92 kWh of capacity but you likely will want more.  You may have a rainy day (or 2 or 3) so really you want enough capacity to last 2-3 days to ride out the day to day variance, unless you want your single shutting down a couple times each month due to overcast or rain.  We are talking a dozen of deep cycle batteries.  Maybe $500 in battery capacity.

So excluding mounting, rails, wiring, installation costs you are talking somewhere in the tune of $2000 (640W array), $150 (charge controller), $500 (8 kWh battery bank).  At $2650 in capital cost and $0.10 per kWh average electrical rates.  You will get $0.19 in "free power" per day.  Break even point is in 39.7 years.  Direct DC (offgrid) solar systems are prohibitively expensive, small solar systems are prohibitively expensive.  One that combines both is just foolish.

A gridtie system will still be expensive but is easily half the cost (or less).  It really is your only option.  Still break even is likely in the 10 to 15 year range.  Why is a grid tie system cheaper.  It allows you to exploit the AVERAGE solar insolation.  Once again using 4.5 hours as average annual solar insolation.  A 80W BFL Single will use ~700 kWh annually.  Lets increase than 10% to compensate for system losses.  Say ~770 kWh / 365 / 4.5 = 460W.  Smaller array and no need for batteries = cheaper system.  

just get a grid tie inverter.. all you gotta do is plug it in like any appliance. no wiring no fuss!

if you go the that way.. all you need is panels and a inverter.

It is.

Fair enough.  :p

Im Good with electronics but once it comes to things like house hold wiring i wouldnt have the slightest clue where to start nor would i trust my self with direct power lines to my house dont think any other room mates would appreciate the power outage if i did mess up either. I could imagine my neck being strangled and red becuase they just passed an important part of skyrim and didnt get to save in time.

Why batteries?  Why can't you just contribute the full amount of solar energy to the rest of the household during the day, and assume that it basically covers the electric for the BFL miner?  Is it difficult to tie a solar panel in with the power of the rest of the house or something?

Bounty you say? May be me and my future investors can kill two birds with one stone.!

I think deep cycle is what im looking for thanks, and yes ill need a lot of batteries or a battery that can store alot of amps of power which leads back to your point that ill need a few i scince i havent seen a consumer battey like that.

You need a deep cycle battery.  Actually, you need several.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-35Ah-Deep-Cycle-AGM-SLA-APC-UPS-BackUp-Power-VRLA-Battery-Nut-Bolt-Posts-/330715931760?pt=US_Batteries&hash=item4d0034a470

I presume your rationale is ideological rather than economic?

I think I have a bounty on this type of rig somewhere here on the forums.

btw: 1 12volt battery might not be enough to carry you through the night.

Try looking at 24v Marine Battery for better bang for your buck.

The idea is to have enough batter power for 24 hrs for your BFL and that the solar panel can charge the batteries during daylight hours.

Trickle Charging might or might not be necessary.

(watching)

I see what your asking for now, Let me get back to you on that.

I wasn't talking at all about bitcoin mining costs, but the costs of your solar electricity.

The running cost for solar may be free, but the upfront capital outlay is huge compared to mains power. Most larger mains-connected photovoltaic systems require government subsidies to be viable. A battery system is even more expensive.

The calculation/estimate would go some like this:

Average hours of sun per day (various solar website can give a good indication for this, remembering that early morning and late afternoon won't generate as much power). Units: hours.

Average power generation: Units: Watts/kW.

Length of operability of system. Panels can last 25 years, but inverters generally 10, and batteries probably less. Also, if mining becomes unprofitable sooner, you will need to depreciate your equipment faster. Units: Years. Convert to days by multiplying value in years by 365.

Cost of system. Units: $.

Thus:

Cost estimate per kWh = {cost of system} / {kWh generated over useful life}
                               = {cost of system} / ({Ave hours sun per day} x {Ave power generation} x {operating lifetime in days})
                               = $??/kWh

Good point, i updated the solar panel requirements to 160watt as the inverter i have does not have switching to main power supplies.




Good question! I live in california , usa the electricity costs here are around 13cents/kWh but PG&E runs this teir system(as they like to call it when i was talking to a pg & e representetive on the phone). The way their teir system works is that once you go over a specified limit you pay 14cents/kWh thats called the first tier. The second tier is 15cents/kWh and so on and so forth...
I live in a house full of power hungry people running multiple computers, one big screen tv, multiple smaller lcds, heating/cooling, refigerator, etc

When discussing my options with the representive on the phone they said that this house hold always hits the teir 1 and some of the time(every other month) hits tier 2. Dosent sound too profitable going through home electricity and its almost impossible to promise or guess profits projections from mining in the next ten years.

If projections is what will make you feel more confident i will be willing to take time and do the math but it really all is speculation beyond the next difficulty change so i cant promise my projections would be accurate over a period of ten years.

What is your motivation for going solar? Have you worked out an estimate for the cost per kWh for solar electricity based on depreciating the capital outlay over, say, 10 years? How does it compare with mains pricing?

Keep in mind if you go solar you need more than 2x the capacity so you can store it for when the sun is not up. The other option is to have one of those inverters that will provide 120v from the mains when the battery is depleted below a certain voltage.

So I'd like to get back into mining to help contribute to the bitcoin network(major reason). I chose butterfly labs mining machines for the obvious reasons that they are highly effecient as far as hash to power consumption ratio and it keeps my computers clock cycles free for me to work, play games, run simulations, etc.

So my plan is to ask for a full loan from either one person or multiple sources to aquire the following

1]Butterfly labs hashing machine (single unit)
$634

2]Solar panel 160watt
$560
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0063MAMAC/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?ei=eYyLT4LiE4POiAKYyuX3Cw&sa=X&ved=0CHQQgwgwAw

3]12v battery to store power.
$50
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002ILJZU/ref=redir_mdp_mobile


4]120v inverter to supply the correct voltage to the hashing machine.
Aquired!


All btc mined will go to all the sources that supplied the loans i wont take any profit until its compleltly paid off.
When the loans are payed off ill keep running the miner to help contribute to the network and i would also like to start over on the Mining Farm front end to push pool upon full payment of loan.


Im a freelance programmer making $300+ a month so i can also help payments go alot more quickly over time when the extra income is there. Im open to suggestions as far as payments go, and wouldnt mind giving the investor(s) percents of btc mined for a period even after the loan is payed off.


If you are looking to make quick ROI from your loans this is not for you however if you dont mind dropping $1000 and then making alot more in the long run this is deffinatly your kind of loan.

Thank you for your time. Pm me for offers or questions and ill post updates