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Topic: Without power, how many years can a hardware wallet retain data? (Read 279 times)

Pmalek

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Quote from: libert19 on October 22, 2023, 09:00:37 AM

I'll be careful with next devices, was completely oblivious that such thing could happen.

Thanks to this thread, at least the cause was revealed to me.

It's a possible cause, but there is no way for me or anyone here of knowing if the humidity in your area is the one and only reason that your device is breaking. It could have had a partial affect, it could have been the only reason, or it's something completely unrelated.

un_rank

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- Leo -

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 08:16:25 PM

Yes, I agree. A portion, like passphrase should be encrypted into electronic documents. Backing up everything on paper or metal is not secure.

Backing up everything on paper is very secure and has worked properly for the number of years I have used it. There are lots of information that I have written down on paper that are still very readable now after decades that they were written, now I just have to keep it a safe location where third parties cannot access it and it cannot be damaged by natural factors. I then duplicate that for extra security.

Works better for me than an electronically encrypted file.

- Jay -

libert19

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Quote from: Pmalek on October 22, 2023, 08:29:18 AM

Quote from: libert19 on October 22, 2023, 04:42:14 AM

I didn't know humidity could break it, summers here go 40+ degrees.

How do you generally store your Ledger? Is it out in the open and exposed to the humidity or do you perhaps have any protective cases/boxes that protect against it?
Have you noticed any other failures in any other electronic devices in your home?

It was in it's own box up up until I configured it ~6 months ago, since then it's been out in open. No other electronic device damage.

I'll be careful with next devices, was completely oblivious that such thing could happen.

Thanks to this thread, at least the cause was revealed to me.

Pmalek

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Farewell, Leo. You will be missed!

Quote from: libert19 on October 22, 2023, 04:42:14 AM

I didn't know humidity could break it, summers here go 40+ degrees.

Humidity affects not just Ledger or hardware wallets, but electronic devices in general. It can affect or damage certain connectors and cause corrosion.
Humidity and hot temperatures can also affect cheap plastic, and Ledger isn't exactly known for investing a lot of money in quality materials. It can certainly affect displays as well, such as the one on your Ledger, which has lost its brightness and sharpness.

How do you generally store your Ledger? Is it out in the open and exposed to the humidity or do you perhaps have any protective cases/boxes that protect against it?
Have you noticed any other failures in any other electronic devices in your home?

libert19

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Quote from: Pmalek on October 22, 2023, 03:42:34 AM

Quote from: libert19 on October 15, 2023, 11:43:41 PM

So I figure this could this be a reason my ledger nano S is having screen malfunctioning. I got it years ago, but only started using it recently.

So, you never checked if it was working properly back when you bought it? It might have shipped like that or moisture got to it if you live in a humid climate.

Nope, never checked it then, I won it from a contest couple years back so it wasn't need per se so that I'd purchase and start using it instantly.

Configured it for the first time 6 months or so ago, it was fine then however now, it's all brightness is gone, need pitch black area to see anything, even then letters appear broken.

I didn't know humidity could break it, summers here go 40+ degrees.

Pmalek

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Farewell, Leo. You will be missed!

Regardless of the quality of the hardware and whether or not it will survive one year, a decade, or two, make sure your seed phrase backups are in good condition because that's the most vital element of any recovery. Even a brand-new hardware wallet could experience data loss the first week you got it, after a firmware upgrade, for instance.

Quote from: libert19 on October 15, 2023, 11:43:41 PM

So I figure this could this be a reason my ledger nano S is having screen malfunctioning. I got it years ago, but only started using it recently.

So, you never checked if it was working properly back when you bought it? It might have shipped like that or moisture got to it if you live in a humid climate.

libert19

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Quote from: Wapfika on September 28, 2023, 06:51:13 AM

I broke my previous hardware wallet by just not openly it for a year. Hardwallet needs to be open even once a month as per the general care description of the device.

So I figure this could this be a reason my ledger nano S is having screen malfunctioning. I got it years ago, but only started using it recently.

DaveF

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Quote from: blue Snow on September 28, 2023, 10:04:55 PM

After I read your thread, I immediately opened my Trezor wallet idle since 2019, and still worked.

Maybe if you worry, and rarely open (you just use that hardware wallet to save bitcoin for a long time), you have to prepare to open it once a year. no need to open the full wallet, just make sure is still turned on.

I connected Electrum+Trezor (idle since 2019) with an airgap device (didn't connect the internet), to make sure my trezor still worked.

That's great for today, but what about next year and the year after that. I said it above and I'll say it again. MAKE SURE YOUR SEED IS SAFE AND ACCESSIBLE.

Not accessible as in you can get to it at this minute, but in case your HW wallet dies you can get to it.

All hardware will eventually have an issue. Panic after it happens is not good. A shrug and let me get a new device and put my seed in it is good.

-Dave

satscraper

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Quote from: lyw123 on October 05, 2023, 07:56:07 PM

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The charge leakage from floating gate which is part of memory cell that traps electrons via hot electron-injection thus setting it to binary "0" , in a first approximation, doesn't depend on whether hardware wallet is turned on or off. I mean if you turn it on, the injections into relevant cells will not happen again. In fact you should rewrite sensitive info if you want to rejuvenate the old one in the memory. Thus it doesn't matter how often a year you will turn you device on to prevent the loss of your information as applied power doesn't come into play.

For TLC's USB flash drive, do I need to copy and paste important files every year?

Nope, it's not necessary. It's better to back up important files using two or three flash drives. For highly sensitive information the use of SLS NAND-based memory is preferable.

In fact, during my more than 20 years of dealing with USB flash drives, I have never encountered file loss caused by charge leakage. Most issues were caused by faulty controllers.

lyw123

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For TLC's USB flash drive, do I need to copy and paste important files every year?
I don't know how the internal drive of the U disk works. For hardware wallets, if SLC particles are used, there is no need to pay attention to this issue.

satscraper

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Quote from: blue Snow on September 28, 2023, 10:04:55 PM

Maybe if you worry, and rarely open (you just use that hardware wallet to save bitcoin for a long time), you have to prepare to open it once a year. no need to open the full wallet, just make sure is still turned on.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory

lyw123

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You guess right. That is what I want to do. Grin

Airgapped method through electrum is good.

blue Snow

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lyw123

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What prevents you from periodically turning on the HW device? This process takes very little time.

Ordinary investors also need to earn money to support their families, so they may not necessarily pay frequent attention to hardware wallets.

lyw123

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If it was made using 'good' hardware. If then went cheap, then you never know....

The other thing to keep in mind is the battery if it's not USB powered. Lithium batts can get so low that they just die and can't be recharged so you have to take the wallet apart and install a new one.
Or if it's one that takes regular batteries, make sure that they don't do the sit for years and leak all over everything death.

And if it has a screen I think everyone has had at least one cell phone / monitor / whatever screen just up and die.

So, it's not just the data but the unit as a whole.

So

MAKE SURE YOUR SEED IS SAFE.

-Dave

Your analysis is very professional. Thank you. It is necessary to inspect all hardware wallets and encrypted USB drives annually and give them a recharge.

lyw123

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Quote from: BitMaxz on September 28, 2023, 08:07:51 PM

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:00:36 PM

Quote

This is an bad idea. Overly complicated, zero redundancy, significantly increases the chance that you are unable to recover your wallets.

Maybe everyone has their own methods, and of course, you are more professional.
Here are my thoughts: Firstly, writing down all the seed phrase and passphrase on paper or separately on different papers, and then making multiple copies and keeping them at home makes me feel insecure. So, I choose to write a portion of it on paper and encrypt another portion as an electronic file. Each part have several backups. As long as one copy of each part survives, the wallet can be restored.

Yeah, you are right having multiple copies is not secure however you can encrypt your backup seed with custom/extended word even if you have multiple backups if someone finds your seed backup without the extended word he won't be able to recover your wallet.
Just make sure that you memorize the extended word and don't include it on the piece of paper where you write down the seed.

Yes, I agree. A portion, like passphrase should be encrypted into electronic documents. Backing up everything on paper or metal is not secure.

BitMaxz

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:00:36 PM

Quote

This is an bad idea. Overly complicated, zero redundancy, significantly increases the chance that you are unable to recover your wallets.

lyw123

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Probably, keeping it in fridge (and preventing from being exposed to moisture there ) will increase memory's life .

Will you do it? Grin

lyw123

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This is an bad idea. Overly complicated, zero redundancy, significantly increases the chance that you are unable to recover your wallets.

Stalker22

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:48:22 AM

If it use SLC, then there's nothing to worry about. Another post discussed the lifespan of hardware wallets, and the conclusion was that it's similar to regular electronic products (around 5 years).

Keep in mind that some hardware wallets may have an internal battery, so their memories can store information for a probably longer period.
However, when it comes to preserving information for the long haul, there is nothing quite like the reliability of good old-fashioned paper. Or even better, a sturdy piece of metal with an engraved message.

m2017

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keep walking, Johnnie

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 06:30:11 AM

I have another question to ask everyone.
USB flash drives typically use TLC, and after 2-3 years without power, it may experience data loss.
So, how many years can a hardware wallet (like trezor one) retain data without power?

It's possible that ordinary users may not power up their hardware wallets for 2-3 years or longer.

This question must be asked first of all to each specific manufacturer of HW devices. It's surprising that users of trezor and ledger (the most popular and widespread) hardware wallets haven't done this yet.

What prevents you from periodically turning on the HW device? This process takes very little time.

In addition to having backups of seed phrases, it is necessary to have alternative action algorithms in case you need to immediately gain access to your wallet with crypto assets, and the HW device is broken (the display is broken, the internal drive is out of order, or something else). That is, how will you restore your wallet? Using a reserve hardware wallet or a crypto wallet app like electrum.

DaveF

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Quote from: Findingnemo on September 28, 2023, 06:54:18 AM

Whereas hardware Wallets uses SLC (Single-level cell) which provides the highest endurance possible with expected 100K P/E cycles so technically it can last longer than the USB drives but I don't expect it to last longer, than 5 to 10 years because the durability is affected by various other factors too so even if you keep HW safe you need to have physical backup(s) of your recovery seeds.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 09:13:36 AM

Paper-based storage of mnemonic phrases can last for several decades or even centuries, but it also carries risks. For example, what if there is a fire?

Then I go and recover one of my other back ups and use it to replace the lost back up. You should never only have a single back up.

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 09:13:36 AM

Another risk is theft.

Then use a passphrase or multi-sig. Then the theft of one back up is insufficient to compromise your wallet and steal your coins.

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 09:13:36 AM

For instance, we can write down 15 out of the 24 words on papers. And encrypt the remaining 9 words (using WinRAR or 7-zip, AES256 encryption, with a strong password) and store them on encrypted USB drives and in email accounts.

This is an bad idea. Overly complicated, zero redundancy, significantly increases the chance that you are unable to recover your wallets. And where are you planning to back up your strong password?

satscraper

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 06:30:11 AM

So, how many years can a hardware wallet (like trezor one) retain data without power?

I have encountered somewhere across mentions of something like ten years of average lifespan for non-volatile memory used in HW, but you have to take into consideration that to prolong memory's life device should be kept at optimal conditions. The loss of charge in memory cells is temperature dependent - the higher the temperature the faster the leakage.

Probably, keeping it in fridge (and preventing from being exposed to moisture there ) will increase memory's life .

lyw123

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The hardware wallet is not just any other USB, it is specifically designed to store the data stored in securely even if the device is connected to a malware-infected device. Of course. every electronic device has a life span but all I am saying is Hardware wallets can last longer than any USB you can because of the type of NAND used and it is specifically designed for that purpose

Thank you. That is a good message.

lyw123

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:54:40 AM

The issue is that the backup of the mnemonic phrases is also partly stored in an encrypted electronic format. So I am very concerned about the longevity of the storage medium.

It shouldn't be. It should be backed up physically on paper. Good quality paper and ink stored away from extremes of heat, humidity, etc., will last for decades. Laminate it and it will last even longer.

[/quote]

Paper-based storage of mnemonic phrases can last for several decades or even centuries, but it also carries risks. For example, what if there is a fire? Perhaps this risk can be mitigated by using metal instead? Another risk is theft.

We can try a different approach. For instance, we can write down 15 out of the 24 words on papers. And encrypt the remaining 9 words (using WinRAR or 7-zip, AES256 encryption, with a strong password) and store them on encrypted USB drives and in email accounts. The papers can be sealed and stored in several locations, so even if a fire occurs at home, there is no need to worry.

Findingnemo

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:48:22 AM

Quote

Whereas hardware Wallets uses SLC (Single-level cell) which provides the highest endurance possible with expected 100K P/E cycles so technically it can last longer than the USB drives but I don't expect it to last longer, than 5 to 10 years because the durability is affected by various other factors too so even if you keep HW safe you need to have physical backup(s) of your recovery seeds.

If it use SLC, then there's nothing to worry about. Another post discussed the lifespan of hardware wallets, and the conclusion was that it's similar to regular electronic products (around 5 years). I rarely find relevant data in the user manuals. I bought three high-end encrypted USB drives, two of which are 32GB for $25, and the customer service told me they use TLC. The other one is 8GB for $40, and even the customer service doesn't know what type of flash memory it uses.

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:54:40 AM

The issue is that the backup of the mnemonic phrases is also partly stored in an encrypted electronic format. So I am very concerned about the longevity of the storage medium.

You are not supposed to store the recovery seeds in the same device cause it voids the actual purpose of the recovery seeds.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:48:22 AM

If it use SLC, then there's nothing to worry about.

There's still plenty to worry about. Hardware is not perfect, and I've had plenty of devices over the years fail on me long before they "should" have. There are also plenty of other components in the hardware wallet which could fail before the storage. There are lots of reports from Ledger and Trezor users of the screens failing, for example.

Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 07:54:40 AM

The issue is that the backup of the mnemonic phrases is also partly stored in an encrypted electronic format. So I am very concerned about the longevity of the storage medium.

lyw123

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What that is most important is to have your seed phrase with you. If you have your seed phrase with you, you will always have access to your coins. If a hardware walket is no more working, you can get another one and import your seed phrase into the new hardware wallet and you will be able to have access to your coins. Seed phrase will last forever.

The issue is that the backup of the mnemonic phrases is also partly stored in an encrypted electronic format. So I am very concerned about the longevity of the storage medium.

lyw123

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_act_

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Findingnemo

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 06:30:11 AM

USB flash drives typically use TLC, and after 2-3 years without power, it may experience data loss.
So, how many years can a hardware wallet (like trezor one) retain data without power?

Flash memory drives used in hardware wallets are not TLC so unlike USB which uses TLC (Triple-Level Cell)which is aimed to store more data in a cell has less durability and 3000 P/E cycles.

Whereas hardware Wallets uses SLC (Single-level cell) which provides the highest endurance possible with expected 100K P/E cycles so technically it can last longer than the USB drives but I don't expect it to last longer, than 5 to 10 years because the durability is affected by various other factors too so even if you keep HW safe you need to have physical backup(s) of your recovery seeds.

Quote from: Wapfika on September 28, 2023, 06:51:13 AM

I broke my previous hardware wallet by just not openly it for a year. Hardwallet needs to be open even once a month as per the general care description of the device.

I don't think so because the HW wallets are built to last long and the firstt thing that can break down in HW is the battery used to powerup which means lesser you connect the most life can be expected. So there is no reason for your HW to broke unless it damaged physically or exposed to extreme weather conditions.

Wapfika

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Quote from: lyw123 on September 28, 2023, 06:30:11 AM

I broke my previous hardware wallet by just not openly it for a year. Hardwallet needs to be open even once a month as per the general care description of the device.

I believe the year of storing the data is not important since you can always recover all your assets stored on broken hardware by importing the seedphrase on any software wallet that support wallet import. The durability of the hardware wallet is your main concern rather than retaining the data inside since it will be there as long as the device is working.

apogio

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I don't have an answer to your question since hardware failure depends on the hardware. I reckon it shouldn't be only 2-3 years but much more. I have no proof to justify my words though.

However, you shouldn't worry about it, since you can have a dual backup of your seed phrase and then you don't really care if the wallet (device) loses data. In fact, you can even destroy it and don't lose anything at all, as long as the only thing required to retrieve the wallet is your seed phrase and your passphrase (optional).

Personally, I have set my device to "temporary signing" meaning it erases memory when shutdown. So I use the "malfunction" that you ask for, as a feature!

lyw123

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